Post-Release Matrix Reloaded Discussion - Page 2

I don't know. Maybe she was psychic or some shit? Shut up! Leave me alone!

You see right past me. I thought it could hide it inside my paragraphs, but it's true. I don't understand and therefor I hate it.

Good Job!

A LOT of people did not and never will get much of this movie. People in the audience were utterly mystified by the guy at the end, a bad, bad sign.

Frat-boys outside my theatre were: "That movie sucked balls! All the talking and the gay ass love story were ass! I loved the action scenes though! Fuck that sucked goat ass!"

And so on and so forth. I honestly found the action kind of slow, just because I knew that noone important would die/get hurt. The Neo fight scenes were simply about grace and beauty, proving he was the one. Essentially, something has to sell tickets. I loved the "talky" scenes, and wish that there had been more of them. Its like inserting Solaris into the first film on steroids.

Oh, I understood it, it didn't go over my head.

I think I explained the reasons for my dislike, and not understanding it isn't one of them.

Sounds like it.

True. As soon as he started breaking out the big words, I saw steam coming out of people's ears. Still, the audience I was with applauded during the predictable bits (Neo's rescue of the KeyMaker and Morpheus), and seemed generally happy.

But I could watch footage of The Architect forever. An arrogant, condescending version of God. Genius.

Lets not start attacking each other here. It's a very difficult film. I DID like it (to a degree) and I can't say that I "got" everything about it. One of the faults of the movie is that it doesn't take the time to explain it's ideas. A film SHOULDN'T take repeated viewings to enjoy. You can enjoy a film MORE after seeing it, but it shouldn't be required.

Tony is an intelligent guy and he gives good reasons not to like the movie. Don't dig someone else for having an opinion, dig someone who doesn't have one, or has one without a good reason.

Or an arrogant, condescending Demiurge. More gnostic thought from the Bros W! And more fodder for my Philosophizes thread...

I understood the philosphy, it just didn't work for me. The French dude being the prime example of why I didn't. The talk came out of nowhere and seemed to comment on the surrondings instead of pushing it forward. Sort of like if I watched Harold and Maude with some commentary from a guy explaining the philosphy inside it.

I felt it took me out of the film and was, yes, too heavy handed for the film it was.

Bad sign for box office, but not for the world of cinema. I really think that people will realize how revolutionary this take on a sequel is, eventually, and someday down the road the Wachowskis will get the respect they deserve.

I give them credit for that. It's one of the most expansive and ambitious sequels I've ever seen.

As to the point of Zion being destroyed. It was not. The plan was to send the fleet to a point in the tunnels that the drilling machines were sure to intersect. There they were to stage a counter-attack. But before they began the attack an EMP went off and took out 5 ships (not that they only had 5 ships in the attack force). Then the machines broke through and wiped out the remaining forces. After which they resumed drilling for Zion. Then the ship that rescued Neo and company went back to look for survivors and found only one.

That's why Neo says they have 24 hours until Zion is destroyed. Why would he say that if it was already destroyed?

Happened to go to the theatre tonight because my brother was around. Didn't expect Matrix to have a 10pm show time. Here I thought we'd be seeing X-Men 2 again.

Like many, I'll have to see Revolutions again to understand it specifically. Or to decide if I should bother. I'm not sure if there it is really so complicated, the philosophy, or if there is a lot of muddled redundancy.

But I definitely really liked the movie overall. The one thing I would prefer is if there was less of Zion in the beginning and more fleshing out of the plan to shut off the power, etc., at the end. In other words, more time in the matrix. My least favorite aspects of the first Matrix happened when the characters were on the ship and out of the system. This one concentrated much of its plot out of the system. While scenes where Neo is crowded by people worshipping him and where Morpheus speaks before the rave are cool, I wished that part of the movie had been leaner.

Past the rave scene, where I think the movie really started for me, I was very much into the film. The film began to show a pulse.

I liked the French dude. I don’t know if he was supposed to be incoherent, but he was cool in a funny way. Reminded me of a lot of smart people I know who enthusiastically get wrapped up and lost in their own obscure logic. Or whose logic gets so tightly spun in their minds that it becomes nearly incommunicable. I felt almost high after futile efforts of following everything everyone was saying. Definite second view required for me on that.

But I wouldn’t waste my time if I didn’t have love for the movie otherwise, which I certainly do. This movie has layers to it, that’s for sure.

And some say they lay claim to the bloodline of Christ.

How very condecending of you.

I know all about Merovinigian and Percephone and ALL of that, but that's beside the point.

The answers SHOULD be IN the world of the film (or films if it's a series). The second the film makers insist that the viewers need to research other areas in order to understand or draw meaning is the second it becomes an unsucessful film. This is the same reason DONNIE DARKO doesn't work that well for me.

I'm not saying that the film can't have interpetations, that's different. But to say you have to understand Greek Mythology, the Bible and Karl Marx to understand the MATRIX RELOADED is too much to ask from any viewer, no matter how many message boards he or she plagues.

I loved the vibe that I got from the Merovingian. This is a guy that has been around longer than you can imagine, who knows more than you can decipher, and he's revelling in it.

I will now register my all-important thoughts which I know you all have been dying to hear.

For the most part, I loved it. My three big qualms with the film:

- I thought the philosophy wasn't well-integrated enough. I have no problem with philosophy in the film, but I do have a problem with the execution. I felt that most of the conversations which discussed "choice" put us in Waking Life territory, and that's territory you don't want to be in.

- I thought the first few fights felt somewhat forced. Not that I didn't enjoy them, but the fight in the teahouse and even the burly brawl seemed to have little motivation. In terms of action-sequences, I didn't really get into the film until the fight with Neo vs. the Merovingian's (I know I'm spelling that wrong) henchmen.

- The ending didn't have enough punch for me. The fact that it was Bane/Agent Smith just didn't provide the punch I was expecting at the end.

Other than that, however, I thought it was fantastic.

8.8 out of 10

Goldberg, I feel like the movie was a philosophical think piece with well integrated fights. A Kung Fu Waking Life, if you will.

And ParkersSeventh, I think you couldn't be any more wrong. I want more movies that force me to bring everything I know into the theater and then send me out into the real world to fill in the gaps.

I could dig that, Devin, I really could. But it just seemed too distant and too cut up for me to care about anyone, A. And the disscussions took me out of the story for the most part, B.

I think they took too much time to comment on said philosphys and meanings in the film, and that really broke the film up for me. I mean, there is some amazing ideas in the film, no doubt, I just didn't feel they were presented in the best way.

Insults will get you nowhere.

And from what I've seen of AJ, he's a good guy with different film taste from most chewers.

But Tony, the philosophy IS the story. That's the plotline, not the busywork that the characters do to get from point A to B.

I know that, but I guess I had the show and don't tell problem.

Also, I could take this talk, no problem, if it felt real for the characters to be saying it at the time. It felt kind of forced, no really forced, for the characters to suddenly sprout this stuff out. And I just felt it really made the film feel like a lecture more than a story.

Well, there's no way to "show" the kind of stuff they're getting at in this movie - the level of complexity is too high.

As for lectures... Yeah, they are. And that's part of the point. Neo is being handed all the pieces along the way and he still doesn't figure it out.

INteresting to note that the Councilman gives Neo his first piece, on control. And then the Council makes the seemingly insane choice to send two ships after the Nebuchadnezzer...

I didn't have this problem, but I guess I can understand your distate if you did. If they had Reeves giving these speeches, then I would have had problems. I had no qualms with hearing it from these "entities" or from zealots like Morpheus.

As a huge anime fan, I hope Reloaded will be a good movie. However, from the reviews I've read thus far, I don't think it's gonna live up to the original movie. Probably will check it out next week at the earliest, though.

Have no fear, Man Without Fear. It lives up and then some. It does require you to be your mental toes though. No easy viewing here.

Yeah yeah yeah...I'm not gonna go down to your level and start calling you names. I'm apart of the masses because I have an opinion like everyone else. Like I said before I didn't go see the movie for the philosophical stuff, I just wanted to be entertained with something fresh. And when I don't care for the characters it doesn't really matter what comes out of their mouths anymore. I didn't see the first movie for the philosophical stuff and still had a good time. I didn't have a good time with this movie. Stop whining and crying because I didn't like a movie as much as you did. You can take that stuff to AICN talkbacks kid.

I'm gonna offer my take on a few of the questions that have been brought up so far. Please God someone actually read this.

Zion was not destroyed; it's mentioned that the Sentinels slaughter the humans, then continue digging. Presumably they have hit the first line of defense and are continuing toward Zion. Otherwise everyone on the ship, the only people left on the planet, would be a BIT more upset.

Zion/"the real world" IS another part of the Matrix, if the Architect is to be believed; remember that he says this will be the seventh time the machines have destroyed Zion. This is why Neo is able to use his power to stop the squiddies. This is also, I think, why Neo gets a spoon from one of the potentials right before he goes to see the Oracle: he doesn't realize it, but the kid is saying there STILL is no spoon.

Someone mentioned that Neo had been programmed to be "The One" and do all sorts of stuff: I'm not sure this is the case. A lot of the philosophizin' in the movie is about control, but the Architect's speech at the end is about, as a friend who saw it with me said, "predicting the unpredictable." Actually -- heh -- you know what I think the idea of the Matrix is? Get ready to rumble -- it's just like "Dark City." The Matrix resets, people are put back in place, and everything runs through again, with the only differences being from the sheer unpredictability of the universe.

Someone wondered if Neo's dreams are flash backs to previous run-throughs of the Matrix; this gels with what I've just said. It would explain all the different reactions from Neo on the video wall -- they're tapes from previous run-throughs.

Also note how many times the camera goes through one of those screens and comes out in the "real" scene -- remember what this meant in the first film.

Parker asked about the Merovingian (the French guy) and who he is. The Oracle says he's a program who became obsolete but refused to leave. Seriously didn't get what the hell was going on there, or why he was holding the Keymaker captive.

My totally baseless guesses for Revolutions:

The Kid will do something important (duh).

The Kiss will be something important (duh).

That Council guy who took Neo on a tour is TOTALLY not a human.

How crazy would it be if all that stuff about programs becoming obsolete but refusing to leave points towards humans having become obsolete to the machines? If Neo has to choose to have humanity step aside to make room for the machines?

Sounds like you went into this movie with the wrong attitude. Not a personal fault really. Sometimes I just want to be entertained as well. This is not one of those movies though. I wanted to come out thinking, and thinking hard, damnit. Reloaded accomplished this. I can understand if you were just looking for fun and didn't get it, but I don't think it diminishes the movie any. I guess I'm just trying to say, your loss.

Christ, this thread got twice as big in the time it took me to write out all that crap. Thank God I still had one or two not-already-said thoughts in there. I think.

Okay...

First off, I will say that at NO TIME did I ever experience anything I had any trouble accepting and enjoying. As a film, it was an excellent sequel, and certainly broke beyond the barriers set in the first.

As an exercise in discussing the true nature of the Matrix, it was light years ahead of what the original prepared us for.

My mind reeled as I drove home. I realized that, despite the warnings that reviewers gave, it makes things so much more complicated!!! This is both excellent and troubling at the same time.

Devin, I can't agree with you more about films that require you to fill in the gaps on your own afterward. Reloaded was absolutely about "standing what we knew on its ear". I have really enjoyed reading your take on this.

Palantir, your description seems spot on, as far as I can recall. A repeat viewing tomorrow will help confrim these questions for me.

While I love the original for what it is, and I do lately more than ever (a top ten film for me, period), this is a wholly different creature.

Again, for anyone who stumbled into this thread and hasn't seen the film: Do not believe the negativity. This film is solid, and at the same time, potentially mind-boggling.

A 9.0/10 at least... as excellent a groundbreaking sequel to the original as X2 is to its predecessor, but in a completely different way.

And fuck the Architect for making me scrath my head. I love/hate him for that.

God... so much. Must sleep. Taking tomorrow off of work was an excellent idea.

With all the negatives I heard about the Zion scenes, I was actually dreading it, but you know what, I didn't hate it, actually I felt it accentuated the humaness of the second film, as opposed to the more mechanical aspects of the first Matrix. I personally like the contrast, and it made the love between Neo and Trinity more real and believable and more personal, for it is because of that love Neo made the choice to save her, rather than go through the other door to the main frame like all of his predecessors have done.

As for the fights, sure they may be unnecessary (but isn't all violence pointeless after all, yet that doesn't stop me from watching action movies), but I enjoyed them for what they are. For those that complain they couldn't get into the action because they never believed the characters were in danger, well, if you watch these sequences with that presumption, of course you will feel that way. I, however, was holding my breath for Trinity, Morephus and even Neo during the burly brawl, because like the agent said, they are only humans after all. Maybe I'm naive, but it sure made the action more enjoyable.

The only time I felt taken out of the film was during the conversation between the architect and Neo, that's because I didn't get everything that was said between them. Yeah it was long winded, but luckily there were intermittent scenes of Trinity fighting an agent to keep people from being bored. Still, I think this is an important sequence, since it tells us about Neo and why he is there.

About Morpheus and how his so called prophecy being wrong, I don't feel cheated, because that was his role, just as the Oracle and the Keymaker have said, they all serve a purpose, and Morpheus' is obviously to preach what he believed, and because of that action that led him to Neo and consequently what happens afterwards. Anyways, that's my understanding of his character, whether if it's correct or not.

At the end my friend came to the conclusion that they are still trapped in another system, which would then explain how Neo can stop the Sentinels, because he is slowly being awakened, the veil is again being removed from his eyes. I don't know if I accept it yet though.

Well, I think the change in expectation allowed me to enjoy the film more, and I definitely need a few more viewings to appreciate Reloaded fully.

Glad I helped daywalker.

Yes and no. They talk about it obviously (or at least Smith gives Neo a little lecture about it), but no definitive answer or explanation is given.

I definitely agree. As I stated in my earlier post, I found very expressive of human nature.

This movie definitely asks a lot of the viewer. Some will hate it for this, others will love it. Some won't know what to do about it, and will probably imitate one of the above.

I don't think the philosophy is hard to get at all. In fact I constantly think about some of the things mentioned by the Merovingian character such as the choices/cause/effect dialogue. And I love observing human nature so I identified with him in that way. He was one of the few things I enjoyed about the movie. My complaint is that the action didn't live up to its end of the deal. I can listen to any kind of dialogue (stupid or intellectual) if the characters or the action in the movie can entertain me in the process. I didn't think the characters were expanded upon that I actually cared for them...for the mostpart they're soulless. The action had the "been there done that" feel to it so I came away from the movie like I had just been through a 2 hour lecture with no payoff. That's the best way I can explain it.

Quick Review:

8.9/10

Longer Quick Review:

Sometimes you just can't satisfy all the people all the time. Other times you can satisfy most people with mediocre writing and low expectations. But why would you want to do that when you can do something good like you know you can? This is the choice (ironically enough) that the W's had to face. Sure, they could've written the story that most geeks could think up of how this seemingly cleancut story was supposed to continue and eventually end and everyone would have been mildly satisfied. Or they could write an epic mindfuck of Biblical proportions which turns all you thought you knew on its head. A story which expands on ideas as well as introducing more than its share of new ones.

I'm glad they did the second.

As a fan of such films as Donnie Darko, I am used to weird ass films. Not only am I used to them, I love them. I, as a filmgoer, am prepared to go wherever a filmmaker is willing to take me. I don't punish a film if it goes somewhere I wasn't expecting, I applaude it. I like seeing a story I haven't seen done a million times before.

Reloaded is going to dissplease watchers who felt its duty was to go somewhere it did not. I take Harry Knowles's review for example because his was the first I could think of. In his review he chastizes the film for not expanding on the idea of vampires and werewolves in a certain area of the film. He was unhappy the film did not take his route.

However, if you have no predetermined idea of what these films should be and have access to a dictionary during the Architect scene (I have a mild problem that he might to a little TOO elevated) then you should love the shit out of it.

8.9/10

After a few hours of thinking about it, I completely agree with you. I think I mentioned that before. Solaris for the mainstream.

Any Waking Life is evil. I just think there are better ways to show or talk about a philosophy in a film rather than just have one character sit and ruminate.

Goddamn I couldn't agree more.

I thought it was okay.

The Wachowski's modus operandi is actually quite similar to Lucas in the sense they are mixing low brow (Kung Fu-anime vs Pulp-B-movie serials) with high brow (philosophy, myth). What I really got off on was how the MATRIX RELOADED worked in terms of furthering the mythological aspect (right down to Neo's confrontation with the FATHER) and the philosophy angle (this time, they meditate on free will vs. fate). I really enjoyed that on a fun, pop level. While not deep, it's actually quite interesting how they craft their narrative package.

But the action spectacle and Kung Fu bored me silly. Harry is dead on about the lack of imagination and failure to branch out with the possibilities the Matrix provides for these confrontations. I specifically detested the Neo fight with Merovingian's goons. The Freeway chase was just okay (Tension wasn't at all time high, which hurts it). Trinity and the Keymaker on the bike, was the best moment of the set-piece for sure.

-There are some bad and awkward moments (Morpheous' speech at Zion is godawful, and believe the hype about the sex-rave). But Zion wasn't as terrible as some have said. In fact, I quite liked Neo's talk with Councillor Hamann.

-Mervingian rocked. I enjoyed every minute with Monica Bellucci (and was that her for a split sec in the Revolution's trailer. In red . ).

-Burly Brawl was pretty trippy, but only when Neo grabed the pole. While it really is a complete show-off moment, I do have a plausible reason for why Neo didn't fly off right from the start:

He's curious. He thought this dude was destroyed. Why run away when Smith shows up again mysteriously. This is an important event. And he probably didn't think it was going to be as big a challenge or such a hassle. Once he realized it was a stalemate...... Seeya....I've got other things to take care of. Make's sense to me.

-The real problem people are going to have with this film is the same problem the original film had. Weak emotional involvement with the characters. THE MATRIX suffered from it too, but because it was blessed with the primal awakening/hero's journey of Neo, it was so easy for an audience to relate to. People forget this! Neo was a perfect audience surrogate, and this created an illusion of emotional depth, the original film never had. RELOADED isn't really that far away from THE MATRIX on an emotional level----- They are both not very good on this level.

Btw, What's so complicated about this film that you need to see it twice to grasp what is going. I can underestand seeing it again to smooth over rough spots, but it's not complicated. Don't believe that hype.

The high point for me was witnessing the newfound grace and beauty that the Wachowskis infused into the fights this time around. That impressed me much more than the FX did.

S'alright, I gotta say. Have alot to talk about, theories and such, but it's pushing 2:30 and I've got an 8am class, so nuts to that. FUCK THEM ALL peace

And be honest here: Who didn't atleast THINK "I'll have what she's having." at the meal scene?

I'm gonna have to disagree with this. I think Reloaded succeeds where Matrix didn't. When Trinity was fulfilling Neo's dream, I really felt for the loss that was coming. I really felt an emotional buzz during Trinity's "death" scene, and I know at least 3 girlfriends in our group shed some tears.

I do not care how this makes me look, or if this even destroys the last shred of credibility I have on this board. I am the happiest bastard alive. Period. I am going to stay away from this thread until I have seen it four or five times, but as for now all I can say is that this film is why I love movies. This is why I post on Chud. This is why I am a raving lunatic at the moment singing the praises of a film that blew my fucking mind. I am out.

Sorry about the hyperbole.

How did so many people miss this? If you don't get what the Architect said, it's like Keanu is speaking right to the audience:

These are the stakes in REVOLUTIONS. Got it?!

It's not cryptically put in the film. It's a frickin' bold headline. But I've noticed many people thought all of Zion was already destroyed.