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Carl Cunningham's A Big Sneaky Traitor Pants!!

post #1 of 127
Thread Starter 
He went to one of them there AICN Jedi Council thingies...

... AND I'VE GOT PROOF!!

<a href="http://linux10985.dn.net/display.cgi?id=16374" target="_blank">http://linux10985.dn.net/display.cgi?id=16374</a>
post #2 of 127
Fuckin' shills...
post #3 of 127
Really good column this time, not so much "Lucas [EXPLETIVE DELETED] my childhood!" stuff this time, which I am grateful for.

I think the jury's still out about the possible 7-9 trilogy. I'm certain Lucas wouldn't do it though, he'd farm it out and just give story input. Fact is that the SW films keep ILM's trains running on time, and although they may not need it as much anymore, with all the other spx studios out there, they still want to stay on the up and up.

Episode III sounds really great so far. And the idea that the alternate title is "Obi-Wan's Fuck Up" is a good indication that they're goin in the right direction.
post #4 of 127
Very good Jedi Council. Loved the discussion of plot lines for possible Episodes VII-IX, only problem I had with those ideas, was Anakin destroying the Dark Side. Wasn't ignoring the Dark Side the reason this whole mess began anyway? In both the movies and the EU books, it is alluded that the Jedi has fought and defeated the Sith in the past. What if the Jedi had been more open to the Dark Side and in balance with it, then Darth Sidious would never had been able to rise in power, right?
post #5 of 127
Great article.

One question. If the prequel trilogy ended up being a lot better than it is now, would you guys still be trying to spoil every single detail of Episode 3 for yourselves?
post #6 of 127
So much information and ideas discussed, I had to read the article again :-) Which brings me to another question... Discussion on who's fault the whole Anakin going to the Dark side. Qui-Gon for wanting to train Anakin, Yoda for allowing the training of Anakin or Obi-Wan for the actual training.

First question would be, did the Jedi really have any choice in training Anakin? Seems to me that anyone as strong in the Force as Anakin, would have eventually learned some of its uses with or without the Jedi's help. Better that he should receive some training from the Jedi's point of view. I would put more of the blame on the Jedi code itself. Supress hate, anger and revenge. Those feelings lead to the dark side. Instead of supressing those feelings, the Jedi should be taught to deal with those feelings. Then we come to the Jedi rule that none of the Jedi should be allowed to marry. I suppose that rule came about after a few of the early Jedi's mates were murdered and Jedi started going crazy with grief. Hmm seems to me that the old Jedi wanted cold, unfeeling people with no family ties to become Jedi recruits. No wonder Anakin turned to the Dark Side.
post #7 of 127
Quote:
Really good column this time, not so much "Lucas [EXPLETIVE DELETED] my childhood!" stuff this time, which I am grateful for.
Have to agree. The first two were nothing more than bitchfests that we've heard a thousand times before. But this recent Jedi Council is a very good discussion rather than more whining. In fact, not one person whined at all. Good job.
post #8 of 127
Quote:
Gigolo Joe:
Seems to me that anyone as strong in the Force as Anakin, would have eventually learned some of its uses with or without the Jedi's help. Better that he should receive some training from the Jedi's point of view. I would put more of the blame on the Jedi code itself. Supress hate, anger and revenge. Those feelings lead to the dark side. Instead of supressing those feelings, the Jedi should be taught to deal with those feelings. Then we come to the Jedi rule that none of the Jedi should be allowed to marry. I suppose that rule came about after a few of the early Jedi's mates were murdered and Jedi started going crazy with grief. Hmm seems to me that the old Jedi wanted cold, unfeeling people with no family ties to become Jedi recruits. No wonder Anakin turned to the Dark Side.
Lucas says:

Quote:
The Midi-Chlorians have brought Anakin into being as "the chosen one" who will balance the universe. The mystery around that theory is that we don't know yet whether the Chosen One is a good or bad person. He is to bring balance to the force; but at this point, we don't know what side of the force needs to be balanced out
The Jedi's time was up. wink
post #9 of 127
Thanks for the link, Moriarty. Good stuff.

And, damn... this was only 1/3 of it??? eek!
post #10 of 127
I agree with gig joe's assessment... that it is important that the light side understand the dark. If the rise of the dark side is truly about the mistakes the jedi made, it would be that they were too arrogant that their path was the correct path. It was their way or the highway (and we kind of see this with the whole "if it's not in the archives, it doesn't exist" thing) They supressed the "dangerous" emotions that can bring about irrational reactions instead of trying to bring them into balance themselves. In a sense they perpetuated the dark side by not accepting a blend... shades of gray, if you will, are necessary.

so is the comment "the jedis time was up" indicative of Lucas saying; okay these jedi won't budge, they won't accept "the living force", or whatever, so it's going to take this tragic period in history to bite them in the ass and show them the error of their hubris?
post #11 of 127
btw I just wanna say these roundtable discussions are awesome. specifically for the star wars geek in me, I find myself reading them with all these new revelations and "insider" knowledge (of SW both past and present, the concepts and the realities) and just saying to myself over and over again; "really?" "REALLY??" And the best part is with everything you guys share five more new questions occur to me... which I think is the hallmark of a good discussion.

It would be great if you could expand this concept and talk about other films, or film in general.. it really fills a void for those of us who are film geeks and surrounded by people who... well let's just say they don't necessarily share our enthusiasm for the medium. However I know that's not likely to happen... I guess I'll just go read Hitchcock/Truffaut again
post #12 of 127
I had a blast. Can't wait to do it again.

So much stuff was thrown around, a lot of fun.I think it will be really fun when we get a random reader in with us.
post #13 of 127
Oh! Oh! I'm random choose me!
post #14 of 127
Ditto. I'm random AND I can fly anywhere to join the roundtable. Just let me know when and where :-)
post #15 of 127
That may have been just a third of it but I could read this stuff all day long. Great discussion guys.
post #16 of 127
I've read almost all of the Jedi Council installments, and this one was one of my fave's. I think the presence of Carl really helped, and I hope he'll be able to do more. Nice work all around.
post #17 of 127
Jedi Counsel is just so fantastic and Carl and Hellboy kicked major ass, which isn't to say that the other participants didn't, but I'm singling them out because they came in and now I want to see them in all the Jedi Counsels from here on out.
post #18 of 127
Nice discussion, guys.

But bringing a random Talkbacker into the meeting? Not sure if *that's* a great idea.

MORIARTY: "So I'd like to get this underway by..."

RANDOM DORK: "First!"

MORIARTY: "Yeah, cute. Anyway, Lucas is really building an interesting dichotomy between the light and dark side of the Force. What do you think about the visual metaphors he's using to--"

RANDOM DORK: "You know why the prequels fucking suck my fucking balls? Two words: Jar Fucking Jar. Fuck him in his stupid ass. That was from Jay and Silent Bob, by the way. Fuck, he was so gay. Lucas should be dragged into the fucking street and stabbed in his fat fucking stomach for making Jar Fucking Jar."

&lt;Long silence.&gt;

MORIARTY: "Thanks for coming down, guys. See you all next month."
post #19 of 127
Thank you, Carl, Mori for actually discussing Star Wars.

I hope they continue this way.
post #20 of 127
Quote:
And, damn... this was only 1/3 of it???
Yes yes yes yes. I'm getting it done as fast as I've had time for...

Damn me for talking pity on Obi-Swan and his busy "schedule" and "deadlines" for saying that I'd transcribe again! (Silly me for forgetting that I am also busy!)

Double damn me for insisting we have this one, thus causing all this work!!

Triple damn me for procrastinating by reading the CHUD board and not getting to the last parts of the tapes!!!
post #21 of 127
Good discussion. You wander all over the place but that's not a bad thing. It's refreshing to see a collection of people who are still so interested in the fundamentals of this story, of the essence of the 'galaxy far far away'. Good, fair analysis all the way around.

What's interesting to me is how people are beginning to brace themselves for 'this is the end- the last Star Wars ever. We'll learn X, Y, and Z, we'll see A and O at the V, we'll never find out about P, Q, and U because it's not really that important or there's simply not time.' I think Star Wars fandom has really been looking for a sense of closure and this will finally bring it.

Way to take GL off the hook, too. I don't particularly like the way he's handled this... I mean, if he wanted to make experimental films, just go ahead and make them, no one's stopping you, you're one of the most iconic filmmakers in the world... But he apparently needs some sense of closure as much as the fans do. He's driven by a need for closure, not by a passion for the story being told. That pretty well describes the way these films have been approached. He's not really trying to fuck us, of course. It's just that George Lucas isn't a Star Wars geek anymore, and maybe he never was.

Anyway I ramble... I love the format, love the whole concept of the Geek Roundtable, love the free-for-all nature of it. I wish this concept could be applied to other franchises... but there isn't any franchise quite like Star Wars. The only thing similar is reaching closure this December.
post #22 of 127
Quote:
sarahls24:
Quote:
And, damn... this was only 1/3 of it???
Yes yes yes yes. I'm getting it done as fast as I've had time for...

Damn me for talking pity on Obi-Swan and his busy "schedule" and "deadlines" for saying that I'd transcribe again! (Silly me for forgetting that I am also busy!)

Double damn me for insisting we have this one, thus causing all this work!!

Triple damn me for procrastinating by reading the CHUD board and not getting to the last parts of the tapes!!!
Well, thanks for doing it Sarah! And thanks for helping them boys stay on track, too! Nice work.
post #23 of 127
I do have a question though...as an unashamed fan of 'Radioland Murders' what was Lucas' original vision of it?
post #24 of 127
It was originally going to be a much darker, film noir murder mystery. When he first developed it (back in the 70s or early 80s) he even seriously toyed with the idea of shooting it in black-and-white.
post #25 of 127
Carl-

For those of us who are newbies to CHUD and internet message boards in general- do you mind telling us who you are and how you know so much about the Star Wars universe.

Also- is episode III going to touch at all on Luke's "something about this place seems familiar" line in Empire? Or am I just reading way too much into it? Hopefully this question doesn't go against your recent gag order.

Enjoy reading your posts- great job at the Jedi council. The thing I think is the greatest is that there is never any other franchise bashing when Star Wars fans chat.

Keep it real.
post #26 of 127
Carl is amazing. He is THE font of credible Star Wars information.

Reading that Council transcript...was anyone else annoyed/envious of the "Alien Quadrilogy info shared, off the record" aside. Damn all you lucky fools!
post #27 of 127
Yup, Carl is the man. I could tell that almost right after joining the boards here, and I still don't know much about him. He sure is a lucky duck. Chewer Star Wars medicine.

I'm also curious about the Alien Quadrilogy stuff that was shared. I've known about the set for what feels like forever, yet I know almost absolutely nothing about it... I might be exaggerating a bit, but that's what it feels like. It will be mine. Oh yes, it will be mine... whenever it comes out.
post #28 of 127
Great stuff, but sometimes I think Carl smokes too much of the crack. The idea of having Ewan and Hayden at the end of Jedi just makes me nauseous. And then I can't tell if Morty is joking about having all the other Jedi show up. But then, that scene allready my least favorite part of the entire pre-SE OT, Ewoks inclusive.

What about the idea that the prequels should all have been about the events in ep. 3? A bit of an exageration if you ask me. I'd have definitely cut the whole prologue of Li'l Anakin, but most of ep2 is stuff that needed to be covered, imo--the romance, the clone mystery, etc.
post #29 of 127
Great stuff, but sometimes I think Carl smokes too much of the crack. The idea of having Ewan and Hayden at the end of Jedi just makes me nauseous. And then I can't tell if Morty is joking about having all the other Jedi show up. But then, that scene allready my least favorite part of the entire pre-SE OT, Ewoks inclusive.

What about the idea that the prequels should all have been about the events in ep. 3? A bit of an exageration if you ask me. I'd have definitely cut the whole prologue of Li'l Anakin, but most of ep2 is stuff that needed to be covered, imo--the romance, the clone mystery, etc.
post #30 of 127
Quote:
Nanoblech:

I'm also curious about the Alien Quadrilogy stuff that was shared. I've known about the set for what feels like forever, yet I know almost absolutely nothing about it... I might be exaggerating a bit, but that's what it feels like. It will be mine. Oh yes, it will be mine... whenever it comes out.
Soon, my friends. Soon.
post #31 of 127
Quote:
JediJerimy:
Carl-

For those of us who are newbies to CHUD and internet message boards in general- do you mind telling us who you are and how you know so much about the Star Wars universe.

Also- is episode III going to touch at all on Luke's "something about this place seems familiar" line in Empire? Or am I just reading way too much into it? Hopefully this question doesn't go against your recent gag order.

Enjoy reading your posts- great job at the Jedi council. The thing I think is the greatest is that there is never any other franchise bashing when Star Wars fans chat.

Keep it real.
Thanks for the kind words.

Really, I'm just a fan who's stuck with it through all of the years and made some pretty darn good connections and friends "in the know". I'm also an avid reader of SW reference material and behind-the-scenes books, interviews, etc. Can't get enough of that stuff.
post #32 of 127
Quote:
Z-Man, The Gentleman Geek:
Great stuff, but sometimes I think Carl smokes too much of the crack. The idea of having Ewan and Hayden at the end of Jedi just makes me nauseous. And then I can't tell if Morty is joking about having all the other Jedi show up. But then, that scene allready my least favorite part of the entire pre-SE OT, Ewoks inclusive.
You kind of misread us on that, Z-Man. I started that line of conversation by prefacing that Lucas is already going to tweak, alter, and change these films (again) with the goal to make all six flicks more uniform. If that is the case, why not just go all the way? We'll still have our Classic (untouched) Editions and the 1997 Special Editions. If he's serious about making this all one self-contained story then the ending of ROTJ with the Jedi Spirits is just simply too limp. It won't pack a punch and wouldn't tie into the events of the prequels as much as my idea would.

Now, don't get me wrong... I'd rather the original films just stay as they are (were). But they're not. He's gonna tweak 'em and we're all gonna hate that anyway. So my point is... just go all the way. Same with the Obi-Vader duel in ANH. Just make some of it CG so it fits in better with the duels in the PT. Why not?

Quote:
Z-Man, The Gentleman Geek:
What about the idea that the prequels should all have been about the events in ep. 3? A bit of an exageration if you ask me. I'd have definitely cut the whole prologue of Li'l Anakin, but most of ep2 is stuff that needed to be covered, imo--the romance, the clone mystery, etc.
You misread me there, too. I didn't say that the entire PT should have all been about just the events in EP3. What I was saying is that everything we've known about the SW backstory... the stuff we've REALLY been waiting almost 30 years to see... is all happening in just this last film. In 1977, I don't think anyone had any notions of a kid Anakin, Trade Federation, Count Dooku, etc. EP3 is the one that contains all of the mythic SW events (The Fall, The Duel, The Purge, The Birth of The Empire, The Birth of The Twins, etc) we've been waiting for.
post #33 of 127
well I think they meant episode 3 was the only story that really needed to be told from a fan perspective... the clone wars... how he became vader... the lava fight... THAT'S what everyone wanted to know about. Of course fans always want more, but the ep. 3 stuff is the real meat of it.

From a storytelling perspective, however, I think it was important for Lucas to do more than just episode 3, because (although thus far he's handled it poorly) we really did need to see how Anakin went from a good kid to a bad guy, in order for the films to come full circle in ep. 6
post #34 of 127
Nice job everyone. Lots of good stuff in there.
Sarah can't wait to read the other 2/3s of the trilogy!
post #35 of 127
Quote:
Carl Cunningham:
I started that line of conversation by prefacing that Lucas is already going to tweak, alter, and change these films (again) with the goal to make all six flicks more uniform. If that is the case, why not just go all the way?
I dunno, to me that's like saying "If Carrie Fisher is gonna get old and wrinkled anyway, why not horribly mutilate her face?" At the end of Jedi, the galaxy has been freed, the Emperor has been killed, and Anakin has been redeemed. Isn't that closure enough?

I know where you're coming from, though, and I think it's allready been established that you and I don't agree about what's good and what's bad about RotJ, so we can just agree to disagree. I understand that you aproach this with an entire nine-part epic in your head, and that effects your view. I think what Lucas did is a textbook example of what NOT to do with a franchise: give your fanbase (who are mostly kids) a vague outline of what's coming, and then let it ferment in their imaginations for 20 years before trying to fulfill it.
post #36 of 127
Ba-Bump. New Jedi Council at AICN.

Excellent job as always Carl and Hellboy!
post #37 of 127
Great read, guys.

"Fuck the fans" and "The Great Jalepeno Caper" had me laughing. Good insights and ideas all around. Nicely done.
post #38 of 127
I totally skipped reading the third part, when I had first bumped this thread. Best part of the series! Loved the Portman rumors, dealing with following LoTR, and possible titles. You guys really do a fantastic job!
post #39 of 127
No matter what I do, the site won't load (which I noticed is a problem for the first and last thirds of any given day); so I haven't gotten to read this.

Maybe they can start calling it Ain't It A Slow Fucking Server.
post #40 of 127
Quote:
Originally posted by ekm
No matter what I do, the site won't load (which I noticed is a problem for the first and last thirds of any given day); so I haven't gotten to read this.

Maybe they can start calling it Ain't It A Slow Fucking Server.
Here's a link. Hopefully it will help.
post #41 of 127
My fears are the same as what the council has put into html.

I have hope, but I'm weary.
post #42 of 127
Quote:
Originally posted by Gigolo Joe
Here's a link. Hopefully it will help.
Thanks for the link; but it still won't come up!
post #43 of 127
Thanks again for the link. I finally got to read it.

Interesting stuff...and like most fans I simultaneously crave/dread the idea of Episodes 7-9; and also like most fans, I have a gut feeling that it isn't going to happen while Lucas is around. If it goes to TV, I think it'll be the final nail in the coffin, turning what was once a universally enjoyed film series into an annoying cultist thing (ie Trek).

I'd love to see some other directors (and writers!) have a crack at it. In fact, I'm kinda surprised Steven Spielberg wasn't offered one of the films.

And the news about Portman is sad, but understandable: she's an actress, and these films haven't exactly been actor-friendly.
post #44 of 127
Man, a ton of stuff to chew on here, especially for those of us who aren't following the film otherwise. Carl, do we know for sure that the "purge" is NOT in ep3? If so, that's the most disapointing news I've heard yet regarding these films.
post #45 of 127
a three parter... very fun.

I have to say, with everything that was covered this time, the thing that blows me away most is Tom Stoppard. I mean, Jesus. I don't know if I should be excited about this or if it smacks of desperation. What, was Harold Pinter not available?

The Portman thing makes me laugh... I can't believe they were that close to recasting. Knightley does look a lot like her, but that would have been terrible PR.

Anyway thanks for doing the roundtable again, love 'em.
post #46 of 127
Well recasting Portman wouldn't have been that much of a problem I think. If they were to recast Hayden or Ewan they I could see a problem, but I don't think many people would worry too much about Portman myself.

Remember, they nearly recast Maguire for Spider-Man 2...different circumstances I believe but it still nearly happened.

Oh and I want to echo the sentiments and say well done for another fantastic installment of the Jedi Council. I love reading these things and just feel a little sad that they don't come around more often.
post #47 of 127
I loved the comment about Padme just being there because of her womb.

The Tom Stoppard thing IS interesting.
post #48 of 127
Wow great read kudos to all of you. I really hope Episode III kicks all of our asses. In a good way but i'm keeping my expectations low.
post #49 of 127
I very much enjoyed reading this. It's the epitome of a good Star Wars discussion: a group of people who consider themselves fans but are able to acknowledge the movies' faults just having a good time and talking about various subjects without yelling at each other. I appreciated that it wasn't too spoilery, while at the same time tossing a couple hints out. I also liked that you guys talked about things both behind the scenes and within the story, which made it all-around more interesting.

Well done. If only more discussions could be like that.
post #50 of 127
Always a joy to read through another edition of the Jedi Council. Thanks guys.
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