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post #51 of 86
Quote:
LlamaRama:
It's true. We are a lot like the Romans. But unlike the Romans, our system is designed to accomodate massive changes. The underlying principles of our government are still more accurate and attainable, and even though many high-ranking officials only pay them lip service, we have the power to change this. Then again, maybe I'm just a hopeless sap.
The mechanics to change are there, but they are useless, as the people do not have the will to use them. Far too many people vote for "the Republican" or "the Democrat," or whomever Fox News or CNN tells them to. Encumbants are more likely to be reelected than not. And heck, opinion polls already tell us who's going to win, weeks in advance; why bother going to the polls if your vote won't matter, anyway?

The comparison to Rome is very apt, in more ways than one. We are big, we are wealthy, we are comfortable, and we can essentially do whatever we please. It's a great position to be in, at least from our perspective. On the other hand, it has made us complacent. We trust the people in Washington to take care of everything for us. Our moral standards are slipping rapidly. Family really isn't as important as it used to be. People are, quite frankly, apathetic. If more people studied history, if more people knew how many European roads were built by an empire than no longer exists, a lot of people would be very, very nervous.

Who was it that said those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it, while those who do learn from history are doomed to know it is repeating?
post #52 of 86
The Wright brothers perfected the airplane though... unless my poor American education has betrayed me again. wink
post #53 of 86
Quote:
Carl Cunningham®:
Actually, the "space race" and NASA deserve a lot credit for many of today's technologies.

And even annoying things like velcro and Tang.
NASA's greatest bestowal is inspiration. The 'worth' of such is in the eye of the beholder I suppose.
post #54 of 86
Quote:
diet mastronikolas:
I'd like someone to explain to me why I'm worse off in my country than I would be in the US.
Well, if I remember correctly, your government did try to ban video games a few months back. wink
post #55 of 86
Quote:
thomas.galvin:
Quote:
diet mastronikolas:
I'd like someone to explain to me why I'm worse off in my country than I would be in the US.
Well, if I remember correctly, your government did try to ban video games a few months back. wink
And let's not forget about the recent draconian 'crackdown' on British holidaymakers and travel reps.

That's right mastronikolas, you apologist for totalitarianism.

<grin>
post #56 of 86
since I own an Xbox, does that make me part of the resistance underground?

Can I hope for some CIA covert funding? I really want to buy Knights of the Old Republic.
post #57 of 86
Quote:
Burke: Accept No Substitutes:Yeah, screw you USA! How dare you cure diseases, invent airplanes, create computers?
Hate to burst your bubble, but none of these things have to do with the absolutely massive amount of material goods we consume in this country.

I guess Salk couldn't have cured polio without Coca-Cola and Ford Motors, eh?

Besides, who cares how much technology we invent? About 90% of the world's population can't use it, so in the end, all the benefits stay in the US.

I won't contest the US is a great place to be, at least in comparison to the rest of the world. But...

A. A lot of the rest of the world sucks because of us.

B. A lot of the rest of the world hates us because of this.

C. It's not sustainable... the system WILL collapse in our lifetimes. Well, mine at least.

So, since I care about other people, and don't think that some people are more valuable than others simply because they live on the wrong side of an arbitrary line, the US, in its current form, is not a good thing. I am not proud to be an American.
post #58 of 86
I just wish America would have taken a step back after 9/11 and said, "Whoa, what the fuck? We really pissed someone off. What did we do to piss them off so much?"

And then figured it out and admitted it to the rest of the world.

When you stop pushing back, there isn't a need to be pushed. There shouldn't be one person in America that thinks that 9/11 was just an aweful thing that happened because evil doers hate free people. There was a reason. When was the last time the wimpy kid just started picking on the big people in the playground for no reason?

We've only pissed them off more, and we've pissed off the people that felt empathy for us, too.

America is a bully, and we got our pee pee spanked in front of the world. It's time we stop being the bully on the playground.

A funny thing. I've always looked at Star Wars OT like it was modeled after WW2. The Empire was the Nazis and America was the republic. Now I watch the new trilogy, and I can't help but make comparisons to the Republic as America, and Bush as Palpatine. What does Palpatine do? He creates a threat and scares the people into thinking that they need protection and war. He builds an army. I can't imagine what their defense funding was if we spend in the hundreds of billions on ours. Anyway, I just see some parallels.

I love this country. I just don't like the millitant attitude Americans have had. I don't understand how anyone could think this is a good thing.
post #59 of 86
There is only a small minority I think who really hates USA. Most people love what you stand for (freedom and such things). The US is a great country so people expect great things (not simple talk of Axis of evil from extremists).

And if you must know Iceland is the best place to live (Or Scandinavia) in the world. Next to no crimes, high standard of living, great free healthcare system for all and very little poverty. And if I want to experience high culture I can fly to London or other places in Europe in 3 hours for 150-200 Dollars.
post #60 of 86
"At any rate, the people who complain about this country are the ones who love it. They want to see this nation fulfill all of its possibilities of greatness. They don't enable the country when it comes to supporting terrorists, or attacking the poor, or destroying the environment. They believe that the USA is a great country but could be even better."

Exactly, spot on.

I have come to believe that the great thing about this country is the ideals that it was founded on and aspires to. The minute we admit that we are great, we stop trying, we give up. Until we are 100% free, we have 100% opportunity I don't want to stop fighting for a better America. Because when we do stop, things like the extermination of the Indians, the Tuskegee Experiment and all that other shit that we have participated in starts gaining on us.
post #61 of 86
Quote:
Gandalf´s Father:
There is only a small minority I think who really hates USA. Most people love what you stand for (freedom and such things). The US is a great country so people expect great things (not simple talk of Axis of evil from extremists).

And if you must know Iceland is the best place to live (Or Scandinavia) in the world. Next to no crimes, high standard of living, great free healthcare system for all and very little poverty. And if I want to experience high culture I can fly to London or other places in Europe in 3 hours for 150-200 Dollars.
You forgot the bit about Sneffels and the passage to the centre of the earth.
post #62 of 86
Quote:
LlamaRama:
I am not proud to be an American.
That is obvious.
post #63 of 86
I help make Palpatine's weapons of war! Kick ass.
post #64 of 86
Quote:
Boomstick:
Now I watch the new trilogy, and I can't help but make comparisons to the Republic as America, and Bush as Palpatine. What does Palpatine do? He creates a threat and scares the people into thinking that they need protection and war. He builds an army. I can't imagine what their defense funding was if we spend in the hundreds of billions on ours. Anyway, I just see some parallels.
I just posted something about Bush being like Palpatine a day or so ago, but I can't remember where. It does fit fairly well.
post #65 of 86
Yeah, we really pissed off Osama. We are friends to Israel, defended Muslims in Kuwait and Bosnia, and have troops in Saudia Arabia to contain Saddam(9/11 time). We helped him in Afghanistan and left. He's pissed we left Afghanistan after we helped him(to stop Russia) and he's pissed we stayed in Saudia Arabia. Sounds to me no matter what we do some people will hate us. That's the price of being the New York Yankees.

We all know America isn't perfect but for any country to call us on it can point to themselves too. We fucked up in 91 by not taking out Saddam and were stuck there for over 10 years to contain him with no fly zones and troops. Now we are making up for that mistake. Unfortunatly many have to die for that mistake.

America will always have some differances w/ France, Russia, Germany ect. on policy and such and vice versa. But I don't see us going to war over it.
The Middle Eastern countries are a little different because of religous nuts who will not compromise because their God is better and those who don't follow their God should die.

Does it matter if some Frenchies or Germans hate us. Nope, can't make everyone happy. Am I going to condemn America for some bad policies and some image problems-Nope. Every country does what is in it's best interest. While I don't agree with every decision I have the opprotunity to change things every 2, 4, and 6 years by voting for new Congressmen and President.

It's always easy to bash the top dog that makes alot of decisions because they are going to get a few wrong. To all the countries that hate America-what have they done to make the world a safer, better place?
post #66 of 86
Quote:
AgentOrange: fin-de-siècle decadent:

And if you must know Iceland is the best place to live (Or Scandinavia) in the world. Next to no crimes, high standard of living, great free healthcare system for all and very little poverty. And if I want to experience high culture I can fly to London or other places in Europe in 3 hours for 150-200 Dollars.
You forgot the bit about Sneffels and the passage to the centre of the earth.[/QB][/QUOTE]

Ah Snæfellsjökull you mean (a glacier). I have been there but sadly I didn´t find the passage.
post #67 of 86
<strong>
Quote:
You know what? No offense to you, CTDeLude, I understand your point, but I think it's time we stopped thinking about the children.

Hear me out.

I think it's time we try to fix our problems NOW, and not for some obscure future date. I think "Let's do it for the children" is a cop out. It's a way of saying we can fix these things later on, for our kids.

Crime is up. ....
Not to split hairs Nordling and not that I disagree with what you're saying but the crime rate is as low as it's been in decades. Just FYI.

See
<a href="http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/03/10/national/main543314.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/03/10/national/main543314.shtml</a>
post #68 of 86
Quote:
Burke: Accept No Substitutes:
Quote:
LlamaRama:
I am not proud to be an American.
That is obvious.
I'm not "proud" to be an American, any more than I'm "proud" to have brown hair. I'm not responsible for either, and I could easily change them if I weren't happy with them.

Besides, isn't pride a sin?
post #69 of 86
Religion has nothing to do with this, that's a facade. If anything, it's an excuse.

Do you really think that people in other countries want to have things different than us? People in other countries are the same as us. They need food, shelter, and clothing. They want to have families and watch their grandkids play. Just like us.
post #70 of 86
Quote:
Boomstick:
A funny thing. I've always looked at Star Wars OT like it was modeled after WW2. The Empire was the Nazis and America was the republic. Now I watch the new trilogy, and I can't help but make comparisons to the Republic as America, and Bush as Palpatine. What does Palpatine do? He creates a threat and scares the people into thinking that they need protection and war. He builds an army. I can't imagine what their defense funding was if we spend in the hundreds of billions on ours. Anyway, I just see some parallels.
Look at OT more like Vietnam, not WW2. Especially in RotJ, where the Ewoks are the VC and the Empire is the Americans. In one of my PolySci classes we talked about things like this, and one thing was made very clear to me: Star Wars has always been about the US, but Lucas has just tweaked it from the politics of the 70s (Vietnam) to the politics of today (GWB).
post #71 of 86
Quote:
Boomstick:
I just wish America would have taken a step back after 9/11 and said, "Whoa, what the fuck? We really pissed someone off. What did we do to piss them off so much?"

And then figured it out and admitted it to the rest of the world.
We supported oppressive regimes because they were friendly to us instead of pushing for democracy. If you look at the current situation in the Middle East, Saudi Arabia and Egypt are the two biggest countries where we supported strongmen who were sympathetic to the US, and the people hate us because of it. They see us as hypocrites because we talk of democracy and then support the regime that oppresses them. In Iran on the other hand, we have more support than we have had ever because we have fought against the Ayatollah there and tried to bring down their regime. We are supporting democracy, and they want more help from us. If only we could get rid of all that oil in the Middle East, suddenly we could forget about al Saud and his ilk and focus on bringing real American institutions to the Middle East instead of paying lip service to it.
post #72 of 86
Some random, and quite possibly incoherent, thoughts:

America is great. Seriously, I love the place, and would spend a lot more time there if I could. There's a lack of pretension that, coming from a nation stifling under centuries of an arbitrary feudal class system, is refreshing.

However, that's also one of America's biggest failings. It's a young nation by global standards, only around for a heartbeat in the grand scheme of things, and yet you hold all the cards. It's like a moody teenager with a gun - old enough to be dangerous, too young to show restraint. And I don't mean that in a patronising way, just that US history is short and (for the most part) sweet. World War 2 left you pretty much unscathed, and while Europe and Asia rebuilt themselves, America steamed ahead into the boom years of the 50s, emerging on top in a new political landscape. With history comes perspective, and America can sometimes appear rash or selfish when acting on the global stage.

As terrible as 9/11 was, it seems that this one incident has bred a certain "with us or against us" attitude that the rest of the world is finding increasingly galling. Especially those that have suffered terrorism for far longer without a peep of sympathy.

There's a new wave of national fervour in America that has slipped from patriotism into nationalistic jingoism. A sense of "we're the beacon of freedom and justice, and if you don't like that then shut the fuck up, or face the consequences". A sense of "we must protect our freedom, and if that means denying people freedom then so be it". The fact that so many miss the irony in this saddens me. The fact that criticism of government is seen as un-American is so self-contradictory it's bizarre.

The readiness with which people have swallowed the idea that America is "hated" disturbs me. It's like the biggest, richest, strongest, most popular kid in school being suspicious of all the other kids, just because one of them sucker-punched him into a bloody nose. America rules the planet, basically. You're top of the heap. This doesn't jibe with the kneejerk victim mentality that some people now exhibit. Yes, America is a great place. But accept that it's not immune to criticism, and accept that having immense power and a high standard of living doesn't make you exempt from hypocrisy, doesn't earn you the automatic title of "The Good Guys" in whatever you do.

America was founded on lofty and noble ideals, but I fear that many people simply pay them lip service, a banner to be used to make the ends justify the means. Because, right now, the terrorists have already won. The "War on Terror" can't be won with bombs, because "terror" doesn't exist as a tangible target. It exists in the hearts and minds of people, and that's the battleground where America is losing.

Every time America redefines the human rights of a captive because of "terrorism", every time certain freedoms are curtailed to help fight "terrorism", every time there's a blackout in New York and people's first thought isn't "Lousy fucking power company", the terrorists goal is achieved.

America is in danger of killing the very ideals it claims to represent, throwing punches at ghosts, shadow-boxing with an enemy that's already injected poison into your bloodstream.

Find these people, reveal them to the world as the monsters they are, but if you damn yourself in the process, how can that be a victory?

On the subject of "pride", I'm with Jacob. I'm not proud to be English, or British. It's where I was born, a piece of soil in the ocean. I love the place. The countryside, the cities. But as for some vaguely defined notion of "England"? Fuck that. I'll fight to defend my family and friends, but not to prop up some archaic notion of national identity. I don't find much to be proud of in "England". Plenty of good things have come from here, certainly, but I'd rather attribute them to the people who actually made them happen than to the meaningless boundaries they happened within. Maybe it's because "England" has a longer, murkier history, but I feel no allegiance to the piece of cloth we call a flag. In the modern world, it's meaningless. We're a mongrel nation, made up of remnants from dozens of cultures we now consider ourselves superior to. My family comes from England, Jamaica, Africa and Iran. Our society is a tapestry of every nation and culture on the planet and so, in 2003, "English" is useful only as a convenient geographical description, nothing more.

The West is affluent and comfortable, and America has much to do with this (although maybe not as much as some would like to think). Being the biggest fish in the pond, and also the loudest, I suspect that when many people express a problem with "America" they actually mean "The West" in general, with the US making a convenient "face" for all the wealthy nations of the developed world. America is the figurehead, not the sole offender.

The analogy of the Roman Empire is apt. All political systems adapt and evolve, or they stumble and fall eventually. Revolution from the bottom up only occurs when the working classes reach a point where poverty and inbalance in the system drives them to organisation and opposition - either through traditional political channels (the formation of the Labour Party in England) or violent rebellion (the Russian Revolution). What we have today is a situation where the very people who should be clamouring for change are trapped in a world of "comfortable poverty". Poor, yes. But distracted, satiated by meaningless baubles. Would the poor of America (ie The West) ever join together, rise up and demand a better world? Not as long as reality TV and fast food are around to keep them in a limbo state of apathetic, impotent discontent. Instead of engaging with the world, we withdraw from it. Why vote? Why worry about things you can't influence? Fuck it, we've got entertainment and cheap food, so we stick to grumbling and grizzling.

Western politics are on a downward spiral. Voter apathy gets worse every year, and the candidates reflect this. Maybe it's always been this way, and we're only now realising it. Maybe things really are worse now than they used to be. I doubt anyone could seriously argue that modern politics are better than what went before.

The myth we need to let go off is that politics is about appointing people to do our bidding. Politics is a self-sustaining machine now, in which our votes are a vestigial requirement, kept in place because it gives us the illusion of democracy.

Politics is about business. It's about perpetuating the parties, the institutions, not about making real social change. That's something that needs lip service paid to it, but never in any way that can't be reversed or counter-acted at a moments notice. Our world is governed by the needs of business now, and goverment is one of the tools they use to facillitate their needs. In the not-so-distant future, government will simply be the old-fashioned name for the organisation that empties the trash and fixes the street lights. All the important decisions will be made by CEOs. Many would say we're already there, we're just waiting for the Wizard of Oz to step out from behind his curtain.

As long as political parties burn through millions just to razzle-dazzle us into choosing them over the marginally different opposition, they'll always be beholden to the corporations and lobbyists who make these cash injections in order to grease the wheels of their own operation. This is who politicians now serve. Us putting a cross on a piece of paper every four years is a quaint tradition that means less each and every year.

Will it change? Nope. Because as I said above, revolution comes from the bottom, and those at the bottom in the West are too lethargic and bored to care.

Like the Roman Empire, our way of life will come to a slow, gruesome demise as it rots from the inside out. I don't know how far down that road we are, but we're definitely well into the journey. And why? Because we expect politicians to lie to us. We know the inequities of the system, but can't be arsed to do anything about it. It's too big, too complicated and besides, American Idol is on in ten minutes. It's become par for the course. Maybe a few corrupt politicos will get crushed under the wheels, sacrificed for the illusion of justice done, but most - on all sides - get away with it simply by riding the storm until the headlines shift to something more titillating.

Because nobody cares. Look at political scandals from the past, and you'll see that people were dragged over the coals for things that wouldn't even make the headlines these days.

Am I cynical. You betcha. The system sucks, and change will only come through slow decay. Protest? Sure. I've done my fair share of marching and banner waving. But, if I'm honest, the biggest benefit was to myself - the slightly self-satisfied feeling that at least I'd done something. Things may not improve, but it won't be my fault.

But I will never say that protesting is useless. Those who throw barbed remarks at those malcontents with placards piss me off. Rights are like muscles, they need to be exercised if they're to be useful, and that's why I have nothing but respect for those who march and protest - about anything - because even if it never solves the problem, it at least shows that the human spirit is still beating under tons of burger fat.

Shit. I have no idea if any of that even makes any sort of sense. Consider it stream-of-consciousness riffing on the things that bug me. I'm glad I live where I do. I'm glad I was born into the part of the world where I don't have to worry about landmines or cholera. But that doesn't automatically make me think that everything we do to perpetuate that state of affairs is the right thing to do.
post #73 of 86
Bravo, Dan.
post #74 of 86
Dan, I wish I could shake your hand. That was, and no hyperbole here, simply outstanding. Really.

CHUD can be a remarkable place.
post #75 of 86
Good stuff Dan. I in no way want to believe any of it, however I'm forced to by not only your usual clarity of thought but also the things I see in my every day life. I'm one of those easily placated people who protests nothing outside of a message board and does little that feels like exercising my rights. I'm comfortable and it's hard to move. I'd like to think that we aren't that far down the road, but my own interal cynic buried under years if not decades of misinformation that I'm as responsible for ingesting as those who feed to to me are for slopping it out tells me otherwise. I'm afraid that I've atrophied into a useless blob of flotsam and I don't know where to begin.
post #76 of 86
That was a hell of a post. You win the Gus Grissom "Fuckin' A, Bubba!" Post of the Day.
post #77 of 86
I'd vote for Dan to be my President.
post #78 of 86
Like what Dan said.

I actually have the choice of where I live - I have US and UK passports, and I chose the UK. I have never repented of this choice, and I doubt I ever will.

My brothers and uncle chose the US, though one of my brothers is only there because he's have difficulty getting a similar standard of living for himself and his wife here. I don't live there myself, but for the sake of myself and my family I try to take an active interest in what those crazy kids over the Atlantic are up to. And it is kind of scary lately.

For my own part, I wish the American innocence concerning terrorism within its borders could have gone on forever, but all innocence has to come to an end sometime, I guess.

I rather take the view, which has been espoused in this thread before, that it is un-American and a betrayal of those freedoms people have died for to *not* subject the government to the closest and harshest possible scrutiny. Anything else can only end in tears.

The fact that there are other nations in desperate straits socially and economically is not a reason for complacency, either in the UK or the US. A lot of the problems in third world nations are caused by problems at home, but some are exacerbated by exploitative sweatshop Western business involvement and the support of dictators who are cunts to their own people, but we like them because they please *us*.

A lot of the problems in Africa, for instance, such as famines (I found out the other day that most famines are caused by man-made factors, how about that?), are exacerbated due to widespread corruption, an environment which has been fostered through the artificial external support of some very dodgy characters.

The massacre in Rwanda had its roots in inequities and racism institutionalised during its colonial rule.

Do we take responsibility for these things? I don't know about you, but I don't take responsibility for things that happened before I was born, or were done in my name without my knowledge by some politico I never met.

Do I have a responsibility to attempt to mitigate these situations whilst they're in progress, once the milk is spilled? You bet I do. And so do you.
post #79 of 86
Distraction/satiation? American Idol is an easy target. I'd say the movies, music, videogames, and comic books that are talked about on this message board are right up there with reality TV and junk food. There's no separation, ALL OF IT is bread and circuses. So how would you feel about sacrificing the entertainment that YOU hold dear?
post #80 of 86
Quote:
Adam_72:
Distraction/satiation? American Idol is an easy target. I'd say the movies, music, videogames, and comic books that are talked about on this message board are right up there with reality TV and junk food. There's no separation, ALL OF IT is bread and circuses. So how would you feel about sacrificing the entertainment that YOU hold dear?
Nobody is arguing some Orwellian notion that all entertainment should be regulated or banned, just commenting that the only two political mindsets in this country currently seem to be either jingoism or absolute apathy (and entertainment is, arguably, one of the factors influing this mindset). Sacrificing entertainment isn't necessary. Prioritizing entertainment IS.
post #81 of 86
Yeah but I get the feeling it's the American Idol watching "masses" that are being blamed for apathy, while we're somehow changing the world with our nineteen page Lord of the Rings discussions.
post #82 of 86
By the way, personally I think politics is bullshit and the world is chaos. Far from giving up any of my shit, I would retreat deeper and deeper into movies and videogames. It's the only sane response.

Just asking a question here.
post #83 of 86
Quote:
Adam_72:
Distraction/satiation? American Idol is an easy target. I'd say the movies, music, videogames, and comic books that are talked about on this message board are right up there with reality TV and junk food. There's no separation, ALL OF IT is bread and circuses. So how would you feel about sacrificing the entertainment that YOU hold dear?
Of course American Idol is an easy target. That's kind of my point. It's just a good example of the sort of "spectator television" that echoes the Roman games in the Colisseum. I could have listed every form of entertainment known to man, but American Idol and junk food seem to get the point across.

And I wouldn't much like giving up my entertainment. Nor should we have to. Nowhere did I say anything about people having to "give up" entertainment. My point is that more and more of us are choosing to lose ourselves in distractions like that, while allowing our interest in the annoyingly complex real world to atrophy. It's a matter of balance, and right now I'd wager more people are bothered about who'll win a TV talent show than could locate Iraq on a map. At no point did I raise myself above that, and claim I'm any different. It's just a sad state of affairs all round.
post #84 of 86
I admit it. I'd easily sacrifice a third world nation for a White Sox World Championship.
post #85 of 86
Well I apologize if I was putting words in anyone's mouth, but what I read is that reality TV and junk food are keeping people in a state of apathetic discontent... It would have hit closer to home if Lord of the Rings or Grand Theft Auto had been mentioned.
post #86 of 86
In all honesty I have become far too cynical to have absolute and enduring 'faith' in anything these days.

Naturally my abject scepticism makes me the 'life and soul' of any buoyant party.

&lt;grin&gt;
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