CHUD.com Community › Forums › POLITICS & RELIGION › Political Discourse › THIS guy has the best idea for handling Iraq that I've read yet.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

THIS guy has the best idea for handling Iraq that I've read yet.

post #1 of 19
Thread Starter 
I'm posting this here in its entirety because it's only available on The New York Times website, and registration is required.

What a Little War in Iraq Could Do
By MICHAEL WALZER

RINCETON, N.J.

The United States is marching to war as if there were no alternative. Judging from President Bush's press conference last night, the administration seems to have no exit strategy, no contingency plans to stop the march. Our leaders have created a situation where any failure to fight would count as a victory for Saddam Hussein and Jacques Chirac.

Would that victory be worse than the war itself? It could be, if it served only to postpone the war. The French would claim to have saved the peace; Saddam Hussein would claim to have defeated the American effort to overthrow him. But then, down the road, the United States would almost certainly have to fight under harder conditions against a stronger Iraq.

The American march is depressing, but the failure of opponents of the war to offer a plausible alternative is equally depressing. France and Russia undoubtedly raised the diplomatic stakes on Wednesday by threatening to veto a new Security Council resolution authorizing the use of force in Iraq. But they once again failed to follow up the rhetoric with anything meaningful.

What would a plausible alternative look like? The way to avoid a big war is to intensify the little war that the United States is already fighting. It is using force against Iraq every day — to protect the no-flight zones and to stop and search ships heading for Iraqi ports. Only the American threat to use force makes the inspections possible — and possibly effective.

When the French claim that force is a "last resort," they are denying that the little war is going on. And, indeed, France is not participating in it in any significant way. The little war is almost entirely the work of American and British forces; the opponents of the big war have not been prepared to join or support or even acknowledge the work that the little war requires.

But Mr. Bush could stop the American march toward the big war if he challenged the French (and the Germans and the Russians) to join the little war. The result would not be a victory for Mr. Hussein or Mr. Chirac, and it would ensure that the Iraqi regime would get weaker over time.

So here is an exit strategy for the Bush administration. They haven't asked for it, but they need it. First, extend the northern and southern no-flight zones to include the whole country. America has already drastically restricted Iraqi sovereignty, so this would not be anything new. There are military reasons for the extension — the range of missiles, the speed of planes, the reach of radar all make it difficult for the United States and Britain to defend the northern and the southern regions of Iraq without control of central airspace. But the main reason would be punitive: Iraq has never accepted the containment regime put in place after the gulf war, and its refusal to do that should lead to tighter and tighter containment.

Second, impose the "smart sanctions" that the Bush administration talked about before 9/11 and insist that Iraq's trading partners commit themselves to enforcing them. Washington should announce sanctions of its own against countries that don't cooperate, and it should also punish any companies that try to sell military equipment to Iraq. Third, the United States should expand the United Nations' monitoring system in all the ways that have recently been proposed: adding inspectors, bringing in United Nations soldiers (to guard military installations after they have been inspected), sending surveillance planes without providing 48 hours' notice, and so on.

Finally, the United States should challenge the French to make good on their claim that force is indeed a last resort by mobilizing troops of their own and sending them to the gulf. Otherwise, what they are saying is that if things get very bad, they will unleash the American army. And Saddam Hussein knows that the French will never admit that things have gotten that bad. So, if they are serious, the French have to mount a credible threat of their own. Or better, they have to join the United States in every aspect of the little war.

If an American proposal along these lines received strong international support, if there was a real commitment to sustain the little war for as long as necessary, there would be no good reason for the big war. The march could safely be stopped.
post #2 of 19
I agree completely, but truth is it's probably too late for that. At this point, Bush would view that line of action as a political defeat. W is just not gonna back down now. We're pretty much past the point of no return.
post #3 of 19
I agree on most points. But why always talk about France but not Russia and China? In every article and discussion France is attacked but not Russia and China. Russia will most definitely use its veto in the secority council.
post #4 of 19
Probably because we've traditionally had better relations with the French than with Russia and China, so some Americans think of their refusal to go along with us as some sort of betrayal. And there's the whole WWII "they owe us" perspective.

I think those Americans are wrong, but I think that's the reason France is more an issue.
post #5 of 19
Good ideas...

except France and Germany don't have the military resources to do what the author is suggesting. I recently read an article about the state of France's army; Let's just say that they might be a little too old to start a military campaign.

I do like the idea of "smart sanctions," but again I would say the UN and the other countries mentioned won't enforce them so we're back to the same place we are today.

These "ideas" are good but unfortunately are not a realistic alternative. Bush, since the beginning of his campaign, has stated that the Iraqi situation needed to change (i.e. the sanctions that basically only hurt the Iraqi people, the intermittent bombing of Baghdad by our forces, the number of US troops that needed to watch over Hussein, the human rights abuses of Hussein, and the UN's pitiful inspectors being kicked out).

From Bush's persepective, a short war fixes all of those problems. With Hussein gone the sanctions get lifted, the inspectors leave, the political prisoners are freed, the troops leave (eventually), and the bombing finally stops.

I don't see how the ideas expressed in the above article can fix those problems. In fact, they make the US take more of a role in Iraq without solving even one of those problems. Great.
post #6 of 19
We're not bitching at Russia because we don't expect them to do better. Russia does things based purely on its own interests right now. The only wars it is willing to fight are the one's, as in Chechnya, whose goals are preserving Russian territory. Furthermore, Russia's economy is in worse shape than France's so its economic interests in Iraq carry more weight. The Chinese are very insular and tend to want to focus on internal matters. Again, given the brutal nature of their government we don't expect much from them in terms of joining the fight against tyranny. France is different in that it should know better. It's anti-war motivations seemed to be based purely anti-Americanism and economic interests.
post #7 of 19
Quote:
Dave B-eat on the Brat
[QB] And there's the whole WWII "they owe us" perspective.
[QB]
That is the most ridiculous thing I have heard. Wasn´t it New York Post that said France had betrayed US and had forgotten about US soldiers who died in WW2?
post #8 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Burke the Pink Grapefruit:
Good ideas...

except France and Germany don't have the military resources to do what the author is suggesting. I recently read an article about the state of France's army; Let's just say that they might be a little too old to start a military campaign.
</strong>

They'd be working alongside US forces. I don't think it'd be a problem at all. They have no issue with taking low-maintenance duties and letting us handle the heavy work. the point is that they are THERE.

Quote:
I do like the idea of "smart sanctions," but again I would say the UN and the other countries mentioned won't enforce them so we're back to the same place we are today.
</strong>

The whole point of this strategy is involving the other countries in a multilateral effort TO begin enforcing these sanctions. And with this as the sole alternative to US invasion (and the nullification of their lucrative oil contracts with Iraq) we'd see a lot more cooperation than you think.

Quote:
These "ideas" are good but unfortunately are not a realistic alternative. Bush, since the beginning of his campaign, has stated that the Iraqi situation needed to change (i.e. the sanctions that basically only hurt the Iraqi people, the intermittent bombing of Baghdad by our forces, the number of US troops that needed to watch over Hussein, the human rights abuses of Hussein, and the UN's pitiful inspectors being kicked out).

From Bush's persepective, a short war fixes all of those problems. With Hussein gone the sanctions get lifted, the inspectors leave, the political prisoners are freed, the troops leave (eventually), and the bombing finally stops.
</strong>

It doesn't fix the biggest problems by a long shot. Some weapons will go "missing," and when they re-appear, people are going to die. The sanctions may be lifted, but now a war has created millions of new refugees and a country torn asunder. The Kurds would be at Turkey's mercy. Would average citizens be better off than living under UN sanctions? Nope.

As for human rights abuses....please. Unless we're going in and clearing out every warlord in currently in Iraq, they'll continue. I'm sure giving Turkey free reign to the Iraqi kurds once we invade won't help the situation either.

The troops will never leave. We're making the Middle East a new theater of military operations and establishing bases. Even if they aren't in Iraq, they'll always be near the surrounding countries. Iraq - just like Afghanistan - doesn't and will not have the standing army to control the country, giving the warlords an even better opportunity. So if the country is to remain even semi-stable, US military must be their army for the next several years under even the most optimistic scenario.

The war fixes almost nothing.

Quote:
I don't see how the ideas expressed in the above article can fix those problems. In fact, they make the US take more of a role in Iraq without solving even one of those problems. Great.
Our current strategy is to take over the country without any long-term plans or cost estimates as to what we'll do. It's hundreds of billions more expensive, even less effective, and will produce a higher body count. I'll take the alternative to this scenario, please.
post #9 of 19
Quote:
Nighttrap38:
France is different in that it should know better.
Yeah because they don´t agree with USA just like the whole population of Europe.
post #10 of 19
This is a good thread. I'm not against this scenario. Matter of fact I’d rather that the U.N and the world deal with Saddam. If America is attacked its because these WMD were brought through the old world. This is very much a world issue. What Nighttrap just said about China and Russia is spot on.

The real thing that would screw Saddam up the ass is the entire world coming together to disarm him. I think if all were united it could happen. The difference is Germany, France and Russia have too many economic interests in Iraq to back down. I might be wrong and I hope in all honesty I am about those countries. However the reality is they will never support even this proposal.

I am very torn on this issue. I do not want the USA to be the world-fucking referee. I don't want us to be the garbage-men of the world. N.Korea could easily be crushed by Japan and China. Who in the Middle East could crush Saddam? The world should be able to deal with its own garbage. Time for the world to speak in one voice that what Saddam did in Kuwait and has done to the Kurds and his own people will not be tolerated. Where was the world in shedding tears for Milosevic? That bastard is history and his regime is as well. Yet American forces still have to back the U.N ones there. To this I ask why? Why is the U.N not dealing with its business?

WWII forever changed our international policies. I think its time America started to deal in more isolationist policies. Especially if the world uses America to clean up its garbage.
post #11 of 19
Also taking into account what Mikah said above Syria and Iran's plans for the new Iraq haven't been considered either. Iran is full of people who yearn for freedom but those Ayotollahs haven't changed one bit.
post #12 of 19
Quote:
Daywalker loves Samurais and Ninjas:


I am very torn on this issue. I do not want the The world should be able to deal with its own garbage. Time for the world to speak in one voice that what Saddam did in Kuwait and has done to the Kurds and his own people will not be tolerated. Where was the world in shedding tears for Milosevic? That bastard is history and his regime is as well. Yet American forces still have to back the U.N ones there. To this I ask why? Why is the U.N not dealing with its business?
Yeah but what about Turkey? They kill Kurds, lots of them. And what about Saudi-Arabia? Why only Saddam? There is no evidence Saddam is working with terrorists. Because he is not your friend?
post #13 of 19
Mikah,
Sometimes you have to risk a change in the status quo, if the status quo is untenable.

The article proposes good "ideas" that won't work in the real world due to the utter lack of interest by countries like France and Germany in taking an active role. Why are there inspectors in Iraq right now? Why did the UN and the concerned citizens of Europe not fight to put them back? The recent history suggests that Europe will not actually do the proposals in the article, even if they agree with them.

I think war is an extremely bad idea. Unfotuantely, it may be the only viable solution due to the absolutely frightening meekness of the UN (and frankly that sickens me).

Bush 1 is to blame for the mess we're in now. He should have finished the job in '92. He didn't and now the world has to deal with his mistakes.
post #14 of 19
I thought this was about Saddam? I am no fan of Saudi Arabia and think they suck. So are we clear there? As for Turkey I think the Arab world is pretty hilarious. What Turkey did to the Kurds gets little attention (in the Arab world and very little Arab outcry) while what Israel does with the Palestinians gets tons. A whole load of Hypocricy.

Turkey at least is a democracy but its a nation torn between progressive muslims, secularists and religious extremist sheep. The toll of Iraq and Saddam falling is enormous for Turkey. The Kurds will finally be safe and then will cry out for its (Supposedly rightful) land back. In case you missed this the original Kurdistan was between Iraq and Turkey before Turkey drove them into northern Iraq. Also Turkey loses valuable black market dollars (as does Syria, Iran and Jordan) if Iraq falls. Throw all this shit in a blender and also the religious muslims freaking out over America wanting to liberate/disarm Iraq and you have a split in Turkey. Turkey is no different here than Russia, France and Germany. Simply covering its own interests. I have a problem with that as well. So are we clear here?

Also nice points Burke.
post #15 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Burke the Pink Grapefruit:
Mikah,
Sometimes you have to risk a change in the status quo, if the status quo is untenable.

The article proposes good "ideas" that won't work in the real world due to the utter lack of interest by countries like France and Germany in taking an active role. Why are there inspectors in Iraq right now? Why did the UN and the concerned citizens of Europe not fight to put them back? The recent history suggests that Europe will not actually do the proposals in the article, even if they agree with them.
</strong>

Actually, recent history suggests that France and Germany like having a say in what goes on and they do not want a regime change. This satisfies both desires. They get to keep their oil contracts. Peace is served. We all work together on the solution and all look good. It's win-win.

Quote:
I think war is an extremely bad idea. Unfotuantely, it may be the only viable solution due to the absolutely frightening meekness of the UN (and frankly that sickens me).
</strong>

Don't understand this at all. The only way for the UN to be less "meek" is to go in and do exactly what we're planning to do - invade and disarm. They just wouldn't take over the country afterwards.

Quote:
Bush 1 is to blame for the mess we're in now. He should have finished the job in '92. He didn't and now the world has to deal with his mistakes.
This is partly true, but I think it's a larger issue of our "Pay Joe to kill Bill. Pay Pete to kill Joe. Pay Sam to kill Pete" policy of empowering radical groups in that region to do our dirty work for us, which has gone on for far too long and spans many presidencies - Democratic and Republican.

Ultimately, taking Saddam out in 1991 would've ended his reign, but done nothing about the militant Kurd and Shi'ite factions that would've divied up the country in bloody battle after bloody battle. We weren't truly prepared to committ to saving that country then, and we aren't now. If we repeat what we did in Afghanistan post-war, it's a waste.
post #16 of 19
Whats painfully obvious here with the Middle East is that its a powderkeg and cannot police itself correctly. What Mikah just said about what would have happened to Iraq is again spot on. You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink. If the Middle East wants dictators and oppression than thats the way it is. If they want democracy and to be free than they need to yell and bang the drum harder because I do not hear it. I hear a ton of warlords and mini Saddams though. All rubbing their hands together at the possibilies of a distabilized region.
post #17 of 19
Quote:
Daywalker loves Samurais and Ninjas:


Turkey at least is a democracy but its a nation torn between progressive muslims, secularists and religious extremist sheep. The toll of Iraq and Saddam falling is enormous for Turkey. The Kurds will finally be safe and then will cry out for its (Supposedly rightful) land back. In case you missed this the original Kurdistan was between Iraq and Turkey before Turkey drove them into northern Iraq. Also Turkey loses valuable black market dollars (as does Syria, Iran and Jordan) if Iraq falls. Throw all this shit in a blender and also the religious muslims freaking out over America wanting to liberate/disarm Iraq and you have a split in Turkey. Turkey is no different here than Russia, France and Germany. Simply covering its own interests. I have a problem with that as well. So are we clear here?
I understand what you are saying but all this hypocricy gets on my nerves.
post #18 of 19
I understand very well. I'm frustrated and pissed at this whole situation as well.
post #19 of 19
I don't see how it's a win-win if we get some lip-service commitment from France and Germany without solving any of the problems I outlined.

Sanctions, freedoms, our troops stationed there bombing intermittently... any solution should at least attempt to solve these problems.

The truth is that we've been at war with Iraq for over ten years (a difference between N. Korea and Iraq). Just end it, somehow.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Political Discourse
CHUD.com Community › Forums › POLITICS & RELIGION › Political Discourse › THIS guy has the best idea for handling Iraq that I've read yet.