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Hollywood vs. the Bush Admin - Page 2

post #51 of 84
3/25/03 at 7:39pm
Quote:
Anyawatcher:
Quote:
Devin hates Saddam, hates the war:
I dated a lovely Harvard grad who spoke six languages and couldn't operate an ATM.
You never like to admit when your wrong do you? How come you didn't check your various sources on Woods and Sorvino?
I think his point is intelligence isn't marked by a degree. Therefore finding out Woods went to MIT means little.
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post #52 of 84
3/25/03 at 7:41pm
double post
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post #53 of 84
3/25/03 at 7:43pm
True going to school does not = smart and not going to school = dumb

but we are talking MIT and Harvard not Southern Illinois University. There is a difference.
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post #54 of 84
3/25/03 at 7:44pm
[quote]Devin hates Saddam, hates the war:
Quote:
It's really hard to find conservo artists, especially musicians.
I think this has a lot more to do with keeping up an appearance and doing what is expected than any actual political leaning.
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post #55 of 84
3/25/03 at 7:45pm
Quote:
Guttenberg Fan Club:
Quote:
Anyawatcher:
Quote:
Devin hates Saddam, hates the war:
I dated a lovely Harvard grad who spoke six languages and couldn't operate an ATM.
You never like to admit when your wrong do you? How come you didn't check your various sources on Woods and Sorvino?
I think his point is intelligence isn't marked by a degree. Therefore finding out Woods went to MIT means little.
But Woods appears to be smart when talking... the MIT thing is just a confirmation.
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post #56 of 84
3/25/03 at 7:47pm
[quote]otisthecat:
Quote:
Devin hates Saddam, hates the war:
Quote:
It's really hard to find conservo artists, especially musicians.
I think this has a lot more to do with keeping up an appearance and doing what is expected than any actual political leaning.
That's the thing. Great artists don't "keep up appearances." Their beliefs usually show in their work.
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post #57 of 84
3/25/03 at 7:50pm
Quote:
Burke:
But Woods appears to be smart when talking... the MIT thing is just a confirmation.</strong>[/QUOTE]

I'm not saying woods is dumb. Most people that go to MIT are not dumb. Then again, some of them are. That's all.
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post #58 of 84
3/25/03 at 7:52pm
Woods seems like a borderline psychopath and a racist, but that's just the conservo in him.
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post #59 of 84
3/25/03 at 7:52pm
What the hell is it with conservatives and actors these days? Are they just listening to and watching so much one-sided media that when they hear a dissenting opinion they just can't handle it?
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post #60 of 84
3/25/03 at 7:55pm
Now you guys have to hate Lord of the Rings too:

<img src="http://a1022.g.akamai.net/f/1022/8159/5m/images.calendarlive.com/media/photo/2003-03/7127759.jpg" alt="" />

Gollum thinks the war is not precious.
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post #61 of 84
3/25/03 at 7:56pm
[quote]The Hour of BewilderDaveB-east:
Quote:
Great artists don't "keep up appearances." Their beliefs usually show in their work.
If an up and coming musician with no real care about politics (as I think most could give a shit) is asked where they fall, as a general rule I think they will always say dem. Any good musician knows that is the "correct" answer for their given profession.
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post #62 of 84
3/25/03 at 7:58pm
I think it's the whole "separating the art from the artist" thing.

You don't want to hear that an artist you respect and admire, whose art maybe even changed your life, has beliefs that run counter to yours.

Conservatives have this burden to bear more often than liberals, because, again... great artists tend to be more liberal.
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post #63 of 84
3/25/03 at 8:02pm
[quote]otisthecat:
Quote:
The Hour of BewilderDaveB-east:
Quote:
Great artists don't "keep up appearances." Their beliefs usually show in their work.
If an up and coming musician with no real care about politics (as I think most could give a shit) is asked where they fall, as a general rule I think they will always say dem. Any good musician knows that is the "correct" answer for their given profession.
Or they're just mostly liberal. I've hung with lots of musicians and writers in my life. I think I know, like two, who are conservative.

But, really... how many conservatives have changed the face of any sort of art? How many liberals have?
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post #64 of 84
3/25/03 at 8:14pm
This is fantastic. Thanks for posting, kitty. I love the effort this author went through to spin Dubya's biography into something noteworthy.

Quote:
President George W. Bush: Received a Bachelors Degree from Yale University
Not that big of an accomplishment, to be honest. I'm sure the Admissions Department knew who his dad and grandfather were, assuming of course that his dad wasn't on the Board of Trustees or something. Even a below average student with Bush lineage can get into Yale.

Quote:
He served as an F-102 pilot for the Texas Air National Guard.
....where all the other rich Texas kids served, thanks to their influencial fathers. I consider this a crafty but legal way of dodging the Vietnam War, and we know how ultra-conservatives feel about those traitorous dogs.

Quote:
He began his career in the oil and gas business in Midland in 1975 and worked in the energy industry until 1986.
Funny, they forgot to mention that all of his ventures in the oil industry hemorrhaged money and collapsed.

Quote:
He was elected Governor on November 8, 1994, with 53.5 percent of the vote. In a historic re-election victory, he became the first Texas Governor (blah blah blah)
As mentioned earlier in this thread, being popular or having the money to get yourself elected says nothing about either your intelligence or your ability to do the job.

Despite this person's attempts to fluff up the president's resume, it's still pretty weak.
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post #65 of 84
3/25/03 at 9:06pm
Quote:
Nick Luskmonster:
I think more accurately you could say "liberals have more artistic tendancies." I'm an artist, I tend to hang out with artists and live in a community that is full of and geared toward artists. In my experience artists are far more liberal "generally" than the nine-to-fiver's I know and work with. Or course, my roommate is a writer and ex-marine who is blazingly pro-war, yet socially very liberal. My favorite writer, Kurt Vonnegut, wrote one of the most pro-war novels I've ever read. He could also be considered a liberal. I am usually branded one, but I disagree with so many things on both sides that it's impossible for me to align myself with either one.

Without census data I think this is winless argument.
I really enjoyed your post, Nick. I was at a company dinner party two weeks ago and one of my co-workers yelled out to my boss, "Hey, do you know that you have a right-winged liberal in your employ?" He was referring to me, and I felt a slow smile come across my face. I sheepishly raised my hand and claimed, "Guilty!" I guess I never really categorized myself, but it seemed to hit home when reading your remarks. I consider myself very artistic and always wrote it off to my being a Pisces and nothing more. Yet, when reading this, I realize that I match more of your remarks than not. Is being a liberal thinker bad around these parts? Heh..
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post #66 of 84
3/25/03 at 9:08pm
Which Vonnegut novel was so pro war? My understanding was that his experience at Dresden made him rather anti-war.
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post #67 of 84
3/25/03 at 10:21pm
How does an MBA, which as Masters degrees go isn't that hard to get anyway, make for a good president? It's business administration, not political theory, history, science, or philosophy.

Is everyone just assuming an MBA is a big deal (or not) without checking out what's a Harvard MBA is? I checked. It looks like two years of accounting, marketing, and a sort of finance-oriented sociology. Anyone with an interest, a calculator, and a word processor could do this program. I don't see a thesis mentioned anywhere.

Now Condaleeza Rice's curriculum vitae is impressive. Based on comparing degrees, she should be in charge.

The Premier of Alberta is all up in arms about Chretien's decision regarding this war, and wanted to make an official statement of support, and so on. He's all for Bush's ideas and wants to model our policies after yours in too many ways for my liking. He's also a highschool dropout.

So much for stereotypes.
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post #68 of 84
3/26/03 at 12:21am
Isn't David Mamet anti-war? He's a pretty smart motherfucker.
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post #69 of 84
3/26/03 at 11:26am
Quote:
Devin hates Saddam, hates the war:
Which Vonnegut novel was so pro war? My understanding was that his experience at Dresden made him rather anti-war.
Anybody who calls a Vonnegut novel "pro-war" needs urgent re-assessment of his reading comprehension skills.
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post #70 of 84
3/26/03 at 11:57am
The phrase "pro-war" doesn't always mean "right wing". There are plenty of instances (The Spanish Civil War is an obvious one) where being pro-war meant being left-wing.

So saying that Vonnegut was "pro-war" says nothing about his political leanings.
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post #71 of 84
3/26/03 at 11:58am
Granted, but again, I can't think of the novel that is so pro-war. And again, I was under the distinct impression that Dresden had left him a real peacenik.
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post #72 of 84
3/26/03 at 12:48pm
Quote:
Devin hates Saddam, hates the war:
Which Vonnegut novel was so pro war? My understanding was that his experience at Dresden made him rather anti-war.
Slaughterhouse-Five

His experience at Dresden certainly changed him dramatically. If anything, one of the major themes of that book is that war is inevitable, and that being anti-war is foolish.
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post #73 of 84
3/26/03 at 12:49pm
Quote:
Nick Luskmonster:
If anything, one of the major themes of that book is that war is inevitable, and that being anti-war is foolish.
What the... ??

You're kidding, right?
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post #74 of 84
3/26/03 at 12:49pm
Quote:
Englebert:
Quote:
Devin hates Saddam, hates the war:
Which Vonnegut novel was so pro war? My understanding was that his experience at Dresden made him rather anti-war.
Anybody who calls a Vonnegut novel "pro-war" needs urgent re-assessment of his reading comprehension skills.
Blow it out your ass.
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post #75 of 84
3/26/03 at 12:56pm
I think Vonnegut was more anti-technology than anti-war. Not that he was a hawk by any stretch. He has a quote about being a big believer in modern science "until we dropped modern science on Hiroshima."

And Hollywood stars are rich enough to pay someone to operate ATMs for them.
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post #76 of 84
3/26/03 at 12:57pm
From a recent interview with Vonnegut on his 80th birthday:

In November, Kurt Vonnegut turned 80. He published his first novel, Player Piano, in 1952 at the age of 29. Since then he has written 13 others, including Slaughterhouse Five, which stands as one of the pre-eminent anti-war novels of the 20th century.

Based on what you’ve read and seen in the media, what is not being said in the mainstream press about President Bush’s policies and the impending war in Iraq?

That they are nonsense.

My feeling from talking to readers and friends is that many people are beginning to despair. Do you think that we’ve lost reason to hope?

I myself feel that our country, for whose Constitution I fought in a just war, might as well have been invaded by Martians and body snatchers. Sometimes I wish it had been. What has happened, though, is that it has been taken over by means of the sleaziest, low-comedy, Keystone Cops-style coup d’etat imaginable. And those now in charge of the federal government are upper-crust C-students who know no history or geography, plus not-so-closeted white supremacists, aka “Christians,” and plus, most frighteningly, psychopathic personalities, or “PPs.”
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post #77 of 84
3/26/03 at 12:57pm
Quote:
Nick Luskmonster:
Quote:
Devin hates Saddam, hates the war:
Which Vonnegut novel was so pro war? My understanding was that his experience at Dresden made him rather anti-war.
Slaughterhouse-Five

His experience at Dresden certainly changed him dramatically. If anything, one of the major themes of that book is that war is inevitable, and that being anti-war is foolish.
On a number of occasions Vonngut notes that although he is anti-war, there are some times that war has to be fought. WWII was one of these times. Slaughterhouse-5 was not anti-american involvement in WWII. He understood that was nessicary. The book was painting the effects of the war on the men who fought in it. He loathes the bombing of Dresden as senseless but he generally agrees that the US had no choice but to fight in the war.

I wouldn't say the book is pro-war, it is more pro-american involvement in WWII.
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post #78 of 84
3/26/03 at 12:59pm
And Jacob's quote covers everything I was trying to say.

Thanks.
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post #79 of 84
3/26/03 at 1:01pm
Another little ditty from the same interview, which can be found <a href="http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=15098" target="_blank">here:</a>

How have you gotten involved in the anti-war movement? And how would you compare the movement against a war in Iraq with the anti-war movement of the Vietnam era?

When it became obvious what a dumb and cruel and spiritually and financially and militarily ruinous mistake our war in Vietnam was, every artist worth a damn in this country, every serious writer, painter, stand-up comedian, musician, actor and actress, you name it, came out against the thing. We formed what might be described as a laser beam of protest, with everybody aimed in the same direction, focused and intense. This weapon proved to have the power of a banana-cream pie three feet in diameter when dropped from a stepladder five-feet high.

And so it is with anti-war protests in the present day. Then as now, TV did not like anti-war protesters, nor any other sort of protesters, unless they rioted. Now, as then, on account of TV, the right of citizens to peaceably assemble, and petition their government for a redress of grievances, “ain’t worth a pitcher of warm spit,” as the saying goes.
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post #80 of 84
3/26/03 at 1:06pm
Quote:
Guttenberg Fan Club:
Quote:
Nick Luskmonster:
Quote:
Devin hates Saddam, hates the war:
Which Vonnegut novel was so pro war? My understanding was that his experience at Dresden made him rather anti-war.
Slaughterhouse-Five

His experience at Dresden certainly changed him dramatically. If anything, one of the major themes of that book is that war is inevitable, and that being anti-war is foolish.
On a number of occasions Vonngut notes that although he is anti-war, there are some times that war has to be fought. WWII was one of these times. Slaughterhouse-5 was not anti-american involvement in WWII. He understood that was nessicary. The book was painting the effects of the war on the men who fought in it. He loathes the bombing of Dresden as senseless but he generally agrees that the US had no choice but to fight in the war.

I wouldn't say the book is pro-war, it is more pro-american involvement in WWII.
Better said than I had. Yeah, I suppose "pro-war" got mixed up in my head with "not being blindly anti-war" which is what most protesters are. He tends not to explain his books, either. We could sit here and debate what he really meant all day and all be wrong. Of course, like he says above, WWII was a just war and comparing that to this is folly.
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post #81 of 84
3/26/03 at 1:28pm
It's not even remotely a "pro-war" book. If you can't recognize that a book can express an anti-war message while also recognizing the justness and necessity of responding to the aggression of the Nazis in WWII, then you really need to hit the fucking remedial reading stacks ASAP.
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post #82 of 84
3/26/03 at 2:53pm
Quote:
Englebert:
It's not even remotely a "pro-war" book. If you can't recognize that a book can express an anti-war message while also recognizing the justness and necessity of responding to the aggression of the Nazis in WWII, then you really need to hit the fucking remedial reading stacks ASAP.
Go fuck yourself.
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post #83 of 84
3/27/03 at 10:39am
If my remarks were rude, that's because there is something offensive about the idea of Slaughterhouse Five being misrepresented as a "pro-war" tract. It's almost like hearing someone describe Schindler's List as being "pro-Holocaust".
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post #84 of 84
3/27/03 at 2:47pm
I mis-used the term, which I thought I came clean on. It's been years since I read it, but I still stand by the idea that he clearly makes a case for "being anti-war is stupid." I was hoping to illustate how many of the liberal protestors are really nothing more than contrarians.

Certainly a poor choice of words, and given the stultifying work I currently have before me it isn't one that surprises me. Being "pro-war" has obvious connotations that transcend merely accepting the fact that war is something that exists, probably always will, and serves an obvious purpose. Anti-war zealots are quick to brand anyone of this mindset as "pro-war", which due to the interpretation of the term meaning someone who is aggressively seeking and actively fond of war is misleading.
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