Pledge Ruled Unconstitutional - Page 2

Muslims, Hindus, Jews, and Christians all refer to their deity as "God."
Monothiestic arguments don't fly.

the phrase "under God" simply recognizes the fact that we are not God. Nor are we gods.

Saying we are one nation under God does not force anybody to do anything. What a bunch of stupid, whining, self-serving, irrational bullshit.

How ignorant can people be? God bless America, but sometime the general population of this country is going to have to learn that true freedom means there are rules.

Argue that one all you want, it's the damn truth.

I'm curious...who was hurt by the words being there?

The pledge doesn't violate the establishment clause.

The person who made the original complaint was hurt.

And how does this not defy the following:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

It is establishing that there is a religion under which the people of the United States are under.

Interesting. The wholesale rights of others to freely say the Pledge of Allegiance are now being savagely curtailed in favor of one.

And which religion is established there? Maybe I missed the part which stated Catholics, Jews, Buddhists, C of E, etc.

So, if I teach my kid to say the pledge, and he does it in school, what then?

-which sounds like a really interesting idea...

That's ANY religion. Who gives a shit which religion? KEEP IT OUT OF PUBLICALLY FUNDED INSTITUTIONS.

And your kid can say whatever he likes, within the rules of the school. The ruling makes it that schools cannot have an organized Pledge - WHILE THE PLEDGE INCLUDES GOD.

Your first question MUST be facetious, as I can't see how you miss that mentioning God is inherently religious, especially the mention of a monotheistic God.

Well, Jabba, the First Amendment was enacted to protect unpopular speech and religions - to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority.

Also, I don't think you read any of the articles about the ruling. It says that schools cannot lead organized pledges while the line about God is in there. You can walk around the halls saying it all you want. The teacher can't lead the class in saying it. Or offer school time for the saying of it.

ALSO: NO ONE HAS SAID WHY GOD SHOULD BE IN THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE

Because Devin.

The VERY idea that everything this country was founded on, the words of our country's creators are now being called into question.

Because everything that says God on it is now called into question.

Because religion is now a target.

Becuase this ruling makes for the greatest fear of all time.

DIVISION. You will see lines drawn in the sand like never before. Worse then what it is now, worse then it has ever been. You will see extremists getting uglier. You will see anger. You will see rage.

You will see riots. You see something that is so famillier and so normal being ripped to shreds.

Devin, you see something that has stood the test of time fail.

What fails next?

You know what? SCREW IT. I cannot tell you how big this hits. If this succeeds, if this goes through, its all over. You will see hate, you will see anger and division worse then before.

This strikes fear in me. Seriously.

I hope you understand that and can respond with something intelligent instead of just with some pathetic snippy remark that doesn't help anyone.

I see where you're coming from Jabba.

Yes, as a nation, the majority has a very powerful voice when it comes to voting government officials and partaking in laws that will affect our lives.

But that's where it ends. The United States of America at its core is all about Equality and Tolerance to all of Her/His Citizens. If there are laws and/or a majority group that are discriminatory towards a minority, it needs to be addressed and reflected upon.

There are two main types of majority: The Lynch Mob Mentality and the Open-Minded Majority.

Where do you and I stand?

Note that I am not saying Lynch Mob = Conservative and Open-Minded = Liberals. Liberals can have a lynch mob mentality and conservatives can have an open-minded mentality. Such type of mentality is not exclusive to one type of group.

As for this issue at hand, I guess most people just indifferently accept any admission to "have a belief in God" in any public setting, whether it be in a public school or a Judicial Court -- even though they may not believe in God or any god(s) at all. It is irony that we separate church and state and are proud for the freedom of speech, yet at the same time, we are "coercing" everyone in the United States of America to state in a public setting that you are pledging "under God."

Whatever the prepositional phrase "under God" means is highly debatable. But it does go against the belief that the church (religion) is separated from the state (government). Also, when an atheist swears an oath in court and agrees to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth "so help you God," is he being "coerced" to admit a faith in "God" -- whoever God may or may not be?

The whole debate is on the word "God." Who and what is God and why SHOULD it be in the Pledge of Allegiance? Why SHOULD we "trust" this "God" -- as printed in our money ("In God We Trust")? And why SHOULD we make an oath to "God" in court?

I admit this issue is intriguing and I have wondered about this many times, but it's great that there is a group out there brave enough to point out such a hypocrisy.

Seahawk, you realize that "under God" was added to the pledge in '54? That's NINETEEN54. We aren't talking about the Founding Fathers here. We're talking Ike.

You think we will have RIOTS because a federal court says that the 1st Amendment prohibits schools from making kids pledge allegiance to a country that is under a deity? Are you serious about that? It sounds like you are doing some heavy over reacting there.

And don't think that this country was founded on religion - it was founded on the dislike of taxes. It was colonized on religion - by some of the biggest insane religious zealots Europe had known in a while, who had to come here because everyone else was sick of their Puritan bullshit.

"Also, when an atheist swears an oath in court and agrees to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth "so help you God," is he being "coerced" to admit a faith in "God" -- whoever God may or may not be?"

Many states have gotten rid of that.

Muslims, Hindus, Jews, and Christians all refer to their deity as "God."
Monothiestic arguments don't fly.

Hinduism has more than one diety. Islam, Judaism and Christianity share(or are) similar roots.

the phrase "under God" simply recognizes the fact that we are not God. Nor are we gods.

Umm, yeah, OK. We are not God or Gods. Good point.

Saying we are one nation under God does not force anybody to do anything.

Forcing someone to say make such a statement does force someone to do something. I would offend me. And the church should be seperate from the state, which is the crux of this case anyway.

What a bunch of stupid, whining, self-serving, irrational bullshit.

How ignorant can people be?

Look at the irony in your statement above.

God bless America, but sometime the general population of this country is going to have to learn that true freedom means there are rules.

Actually, that's kind of creepy in a nonsensical sort of way. Rules for what?

Argue that one all you want, it's the damn truth.

Powerful conclusion. The "it's the truth" argument. Dissenters flee while you can.

God bless America, but sometime the general population of this country is going to have to learn that true freedom means there are rules.

Go see Minority Report. It'll probably get through to you better than discussion.

I don't think this nation is as religious as you think. And I think that the religious bits: like this, like God on money, are just lip service. Decorations with no meaning that BOTH sides should want changed. You think Jesus wants God on money? "Give unto Caeser.."

And I AM reacting. I'm celebrating a victory for the Constitution and secular humanism.

A prayer:

Dear God,

Next they are all going to want to take out "one nation" and "indivisible" because saying so associates them with undesirable groups of people against their will.
Why recite a Pledge of Allegiance at all? I mean, doesn't that make them responsible to that which they pledge their allgiance? Oh no, we can't have that! And while we're at it, let's go ahead and just all admit that the Constitution is unconstitutional, because it discriminates against foriegners under 35 years of age. My 20 year old Hindu friend really wants to be President. I've talked many other people as well, and that whole "under God" thing is really bothering them. C'mon God, why do you have to keep pushing the Man down? You're holding us all back from enjoying true freedom, God. Hey, I saw Minority Report, so I know exactly what I'm talking about. People are smart, and we don't need a big government telling us what to do. Then we would be truly free. You know, Anrachy really gets a bad rap.
Anyway, reciting a pledge doesn't mean anything. I wonder if it should...? yeah, but there's people that don't believe in anything but themselves. God knows, the aethiests and the relativists, and the anrchists were the backbone of this country at its formation, and they still are today. God bless 'em. Oh, well if they cared or believed about something higher than themselves, you could bless them, but I guess you'd better not. After all, being present in their lives would deny them their right to stand alone, without interference from an invisible being. America is supposed to be indivisible, yet we have all these factions within society warring against each other. I guess they just meant state lines, huh? 'Cuz this is all democracy in action! Speaking of action, God, how come the State can have an influence over religion, but Religion can't influence the State? I mean, what about the polygamists in Utah? The state says that's a felony. But that was part of the Mormon tradition! Yet, when faith comes to the Capitol, it gets shot down as unconstitutional! America is a messed up place, God. People ahve put so much faith in themselves, knowing full well that they are incapable of securing the kind of "perfect union," and "domestic tranquility" that they claim to promote in the Preamble. I saw Minority Report, I should know. So basically, what America is saying, God, is that saying your name violates everything we stand for, which is ourselves. So we're unified in the fact that we all want to be separate. Pretty neat, huh, God?

Well, thanks for your time. I won't be able to write again, because I'm infringing on the rights of the people who read this. What, God? Yeah, they could just skip over it. What's that? If they didn't participate, they'd be singled out? Oh yeah...Well, if they don't want to be singled out, then why are they standing up so tall to kill the pledge?
Anyway, God, I'm just going to go ahead and post this ultimately fruitless bit, for which I'll be ridiculed and labeled, because everyone knows that "truth" doesn't exist.

So, God, in closing this prayer, I'd just like to say that America is great. I'm secure enough in my Freedom that I don't need every little detail taken care of for me by the Government. I can discern for myself. There are a lot of people like me, God, who are content in the exercise of their own personal freedom, who do not need to legislate every aspect of life to be happy and free, who recognize that everyone is different without having to be told by a bunch of faraway politicians. Please bless those who aren't, um, "fortunate" enough to know that. And bless tradition, Lord, without which we would have little to celebrate about our nation. It is because our nation was established on such a foundation as faith in a greater being that we have stood the test of time. It is because our nation represents the core values, if in name only, to which you teach us to aspire.
So thanks, God, for a great nation. Nay, a great WORLD.

Just destroy it before it gets too stupid, ok?

Amen

Ok, everyone over the age of 20 who has said the pledge of allegiance in the last five years raise your hand.

That's what I thought...

"I pledge allegiance TO THE FLAG of the United States of America...."

What part did I read incorrectly?

The flag is a symbol. Geeezzz...what are they teaching the kids in school?

Argue this one all you want, folks. This sucker is gonna be overturned in a heartbeat (judicial time).
And for good reason.

I'm sure it will be overturned. This country is full of ignorant, uninformed idiots whose knee-jerk reactionary politics insist that the country will "go to hell" if we don't force our children to be patriotic and god-fearing.

Not that I'm bitter...

If the flag is just a symbol, why is the next phrase "and to the republic for which it stands"? Seems to me we're supposed to consider the flag and the country separately, and pledge our allegiance to both.

Oh no, not at all.... wink

This whole thing is a great example of what's wrong with the left in America. INstead of fighting for universal healthcare, rejection of NAFTA/GATT/whatever, or campaign finance reform, they go to court to get the words "under God" removed from the pledge. Tell me, how the fuck is my life, or the lives of Americas poor, unemployed, or homeless any better for this ruling? You know what the result of this ruling will be? Radicalization of the Religous Right. Conservative fundamentalists going to the polls in record numbers. And ultimately, Bush having a vast republican majority in congress. At a time when corporate crime on the front page of every newspaper is giving progressives what could be a great opportunity to win the hearts and minds of the American people. All because someone objects to the poetic language of the pledge, which noone fucking believes in anyway, it's just there to provide the correct number of iambic syllables.

Preach it, brother!

Yup. WorldCom Screws United States should be the lead headline and the barbarians should be at their gates. Instead, we get lizard-shirt sitting buddhist in his bedroom feeling smug and as you mentioned, galvanizing opinion.

I totally agree that the word GOD should be removed from the pledge. It didnt exactly bother me in the first place (I am an athiest by the way) but other religions or athiests could very well feel offended by it. Its the persons right to say they believe in God or whatever and not be forced to say a pledge that they do. Its to pledge to the country, thats the way it was in the first place and should have stayed.

And it makes me sick that congress with their familarity with the laws such as seperation with Church and State made such a fuss with their little "demonstration" outside of the captial.

But Brian...the Congress is a ass. Both sides, equally.

Over on CNN.com you'd think this was the most ominous and momentous ruling in decades.

And now we're gonna be treated to people like Jerry Falwell at levels of smugness never before witnessed by mankind.

Sometimes I hate being a human.

And here's the effect ultimately: No change.

It's simply a decision.

Yet Michael Newdow, KVIE Channel 6 member(want his phone number?) is using his daughter as a publicity tool.

What a fine parent he is.

And no, I will never call him because I have ethics and scruples. But lizard-boy is a bad parent for stigmatizing his child like this.

The most disturbing thing about this thread are the assumptions that a disbelief in God is somehow an endorsement for anarchy, immorality, whatever. A belief in God (and, ESPECIALLY, paying lip service to God in a pledge of allegiance to a country) has ZERO to do with these things.

And if you disagree with that, I'll gladly round up my atheist buddies to go to your place, loot your store, commit bukkake on your grandma, and carve pentagrams in your cat.

Kidding.

I think Devin's point that this phrase was added very recently is key. It should NOT have been there in the first place, so the choice to remove it just shouldn't be such a big deal. It's not infringing on anyone's right to practice religion. Rather, it's correcting things so that the state is not infringing on my right (or rather, children's rights) to NOT lie in stating their allegiance to their country.

Don't you religious believers think the ideas of liberty and justice are worth supporting in and of themselves without the added weight of God in the mix?

First off, that "prayer" by HeavyMetalThunder shows that he really has NO understanding of the issue at hand. And neither, I think, do many of you:

It is not about OFFENDING people. It is about something - something that has been added to the pledge in the last 50 years - that goes against what is stated in the First Amendment. I still don't think anyone has given a good reason why it should be in there in the first place.

And ZMAN, sorry that EVERY LEFT WINGER ON EARTH was working on this case. You do realize that this case involved A GUY and A COUPLE OF LAWYERS, right? The Left Wing Conspiracy didn't vote on this.

And Klonos, it's pretty creepy that you looked this dude's number up. And potentially unethical.

For purposes of disclosure: I did not look him up. My manager -ex-marine- decided to look him up just for ha-ha's. Me? I didn't care...and wouldn't have thought to look him up...I'm actually not too interested in him to look him up.

I was just being ironic.

And yes, it would have been unethical for me to look him up. It was probably unethical for my manager to look him up. Nothing was done with the information. We're not stupid. Besides, he pays us membership money. You know, the stuff with "In God We Trust" on it.

For my part, that's all that matters.

True, I just forget it from time to time.

So you don't think that the addition of "under God" by Congress to the Pledge is in any way ENDORSING a state religion of some sort of monotheism?

I don't get the point of the quotes.. Are you saying he answered my question?

How can God NOT be religious? And I'm not talking some Oprah Winfrey touchy feely spirituality thing - I'm talking about saying that we are one nation under God. That isn't saying "Whatever you think is the important thing in life" or "We really mean Love" or some other New Agey thing.

That is God. White bearded fella. The Big Cheese that most monotheistic religions worship.

If I were a pagan, who worshipped a pantheon, how could you tell me that your monotheistic God is NOT religious?

See, the central fallacy of your whole argument is that God is real. You can't prove that, you can't prove that YOUR God is real, and you can't seem to understand that your God has no place in the Pledge of Allegiance.

Heh!

Oh no, it's just that my sarcasm doesn't translate.

Unless you agree with this court decision, I got your sarcasm. If you DO agree with this decision, your sarcasm fooled me.