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Friedman: Ah, Those Principled Europeans

post #1 of 95
Thread Starter 
<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/02/opinion/02FRIE.html" target="_blank">http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/02/opinion/02FRIE.html</a>

February 2, 2003
Ah, Those Principled Europeans
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN


BRUSSELS -- Last week I went to lunch at the Hotel Schweizerhof in Davos, Switzerland, and discovered why America and Europe are at odds. At the bottom of the lunch menu was a list of the countries that the lamb, beef and chicken came from. But next to the meat imported from the U.S. was a tiny asterisk, which warned that it might contain genetically modified organisms — G.M.O.'s.

My initial patriotic instinct was to order the U.S. beef and ask for it "tartare," just for spite. But then I and my lunch guest just looked at each other and had a good laugh. How quaint! we said. Europeans, out of some romantic rebellion against America and high technology, were shunning U.S.-grown food containing G.M.O.'s — even though there is no scientific evidence that these are harmful. But practically everywhere we went in Davos, Europeans were smoking cigarettes — with their meals, coffee or conversation — even though there is indisputable scientific evidence that smoking can kill you. In fact, I got enough secondhand smoke just dining in Europe last week to make me want to have a chest X-ray.

So pardon me if I don't take seriously all the Euro-whining about the Bush policies toward Iraq — for one very simple reason: It strikes me as deeply unserious. It's not that there are no serious arguments to be made against war in Iraq. There are plenty. It's just that so much of what one hears coming from German Chancellor Gerhard Schröder and French President Jacques Chirac are not serious arguments. They are station identification.

They are not the arguments of people who have really gotten beyond the distorted Arab press and tapped into what young Arabs are saying about their aspirations for democracy and how much they blame Saddam Hussein and his ilk for the poor state of their region. Rather, they are the diplomatic equivalent of smoking cancerous cigarettes while rejecting harmless G.M.O.'s — an assertion of identity by trying to be whatever the Americans are not, regardless of the real interests or stakes.

And where this comes from, alas, is weakness. Being weak after being powerful is a terrible thing. It can make you stupid. It can make you reject U.S. policies simply to differentiate yourself from the world's only superpower. Or, in the case of Mr. Chirac, it can even prompt you to invite Zimbabwean President Robert Mugabe — a terrible tyrant — to visit Paris just to spite Tony Blair. Ah, those principled French.

"Power corrupts, but so does weakness," said Josef Joffe, editor of Germany's Die Zeit newspaper. "And absolute weakness corrupts absolutely. We are now living through the most critical watershed of the postwar period, with enormous moral and strategic issues at stake, and the only answer many Europeans offer is to constrain and contain American power. So by default they end up on the side of Saddam, in an intellectually corrupt position."

The more one sees of this, the more one is convinced that the historian Robert Kagan, in his very smart new book "Of Paradise and Power," is right: "Americans are from Mars and Europeans are from Venus." There is now a structural gap between America and Europe, which derives from the yawning power gap, and this produces all sorts of resentments, insecurities and diverging attitudes as to what constitutes the legitimate exercise of force.

I can live with this difference. But Europe's cynicism and insecurity, masquerading as moral superiority, is insufferable. Each year at the Davos economic forum protesters are allowed to march through the north end of town, where last year they broke shop windows. So this year, on demonstration day, all the shopkeepers on that end of town closed. But when I walked by their shops in the morning, I noticed that three of them had put up signs in their windows that said, "U.S.A. No War in Iraq."

I wondered to myself: Why did the shopkeepers at the lingerie store suddenly decide to express their antiwar sentiments? Well, the demonstrators came and left without getting near these shops. And guess what? As soon as they were gone, the antiwar signs disappeared. They had been put up simply as window insurance — to placate the demonstrators so they wouldn't throw stones at them.

As I said, there are serious arguments against the war in Iraq, but they have weight only if they are made out of conviction, not out of expedience or petulance — and if they are made by people with real beliefs, not identity crises.
post #2 of 95
Why not just say "They're jealous," and save the bloat?

France and Germany are weak. They're this. They're that. As if England - our new lapdog - is so much more powerful. Whatever.
post #3 of 95
I like watching the conservatives get more and more xenophobic.
post #4 of 95
Friedman used to be much more open-minded and in favour of a globalisation process that would allow all countries to retain their identities and work together in harmony.

What happened?
post #5 of 95
Thread Starter 
Quote:
mastronikolas the butcher:
Friedman used to be much more open-minded and in favour of a globalisation process that would allow all countries to retain their identities and work together in harmony.

What happened?
9-11.
post #6 of 95
What a stupid answer.
post #7 of 95
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Conflict Lad:
What a stupid answer.
for a stupid question...
post #8 of 95
So because one terrorist cell associated with no nation in particular attacked AMERICA - no other country, but just us - now there can't ever be harmony in global relations and progress, but there could've been beforehand?!?!
post #9 of 95
Because terrorists associated with no nation attacked america europeans cannot decide that they don't want gmo food.
post #10 of 95
It might be enlightening to consider that, compared to what any of the countries in Europe went through during both the world wars, 9-11 isn't any more significant to a fart in the wind.

It's a terrible atrocity, but isn't say, oh I don't know, invading Poland.

I can dig where the French are coming from. They've been getting bombed or invaded for centuries. I'd be sick and tired of war as a people, period, too. Yeah, they've done quite a bit of warmongering, too.

America is in a different place, literally. We're only now actually threatened by something.

Now, I might feel like I know where they are coming from, but these attitudes are precisely what, after The Great War, let WWII happen when it could have been avoided.

It's a sticky situation. Anybody read Slaughterhouse Five? There's a book that is on one level anti-war, yet the book's author makes it clear that being anti-war is stupid. Because you can't avoid having to squash tyranny. You always have to pay a huge cost, too.

Yeah, a lot of the people with their heads up their asses are wrong, but fuck them, we can carry on without everyone on our side.

A menu and a shopkeeper? I'm shaken to the foundation.

post #11 of 95
We're not threatened by Iraq.
post #12 of 95
Thread Starter 
so we're supposed to wait 'til we're are ACTUALLY threatened?
post #13 of 95
Quote:
Conflict Lad:
We're not threatened by Iraq.
I think this whole war thing is more about global stability, politically, than anything else.

Sure, you and I are not really threatened by Iraq.
post #14 of 95
I like to beat people up who I think might be thinking about eventually beating me up.
post #15 of 95
Quote:
Nelson:
so we're supposed to wait 'til we're are ACTUALLY threatened?
No. Conquest and governing of any nation that will ever possibly oppose us should be initiated ASAP.

After all, how can nations be more united than when there is but one?
post #16 of 95
I think we would have to wait a long time until we're threatened by Iraq.
post #17 of 95
Quote:
Conflict Lad:
I think we would have to wait a long time until we're threatened by Iraq.
Until the french build Saddam another nuclear reactor.
post #18 of 95
Quote:
Daywalker 1 of 9 Companions:
Until the french build Saddam another nuclear reactor.
And a reliable naval nuclear warhead delivery system. I'm sure they'll be happy to cough up the dough.
post #19 of 95
Thread Starter 
Quote:
mikah912:
Quote:
Daywalker 1 of 9 Companions:
Until the french build Saddam another nuclear reactor.
And a reliable naval nuclear warhead delivery system. I'm sure they'll be happy to cough up the dough.
why pay billions for a reliable naval nuclear warhead delivery system, when for about $25,000 a pop you could pay someone to blow the shit up in Times Square next day, guaranteed?
post #20 of 95
Quote:
Conflict Lad:
I think we would have to wait a long time until we're threatened by Iraq.
The argument could be made that we are threatened by Iraq right now. The propaganda that they put out that makes the US look bad (i.e. the starving marsh Arabs or Shi'ites who are being punished for their opposition to Saddam in the past) is one of the causes of Middle Eastern extremism.
post #21 of 95
Oh, and European opposition to genetically modified foods doesn't have anything to do with Sept 11.
post #22 of 95
Quote:
Nelson:
why pay billions for a reliable naval nuclear warhead delivery system, when for about $25,000 a pop you could pay someone to blow the shit up in Times Square next day, guaranteed?
What group of men COULDN'T do that right now? Homeland Security is in shambles. Intelligence is porous. We're courting multi-pronged war.

Yet, we're EXPANDING our presence abroad, while the homestead remains as vulnerable as ever.
post #23 of 95
I think some people just need to get used to the idea that many nations just don't see a pressing need to get embroiled in another Gulf War. Calling them names isn't going to change that.

It really bothers me that there are people willing to view this incredibly complex global situation in terms of good and evil, strong and weak, black and white.
post #24 of 95
Quote:
Nelson:
so we're supposed to wait 'til we're are ACTUALLY threatened?
If Bush wants to paint this conflict in terms of "good vs evil", then yes. Bombing an arab nation into prehistory on the basis of something they could do is just the sort of aggressive move that Bin Laden wants. If we attack Iraq based on what they might do in the future, you might as well drop Al Quaeda recruitment leaflets with each payload.

It's bitterly ironic that a country that bases its legal system on the principle of "innocent until proven guilty" is now sulking because the international community is refusing to adopt a position of "guilty until proven innocent" on an issue that could easily lead to global war.
post #25 of 95
Daywalker, I really need you to explain me why you feel the need to constantly make jabs at France and lick Bush's ass, what with you being from Iceland.
post #26 of 95
2,500 years of political science and it has all come down to this: We are, uh, the good guys and, you see, they are the bad guys and we must, you know, kill the bad guys before they, uh, try to kill us in the future, maybe.

Countless politcal philosophers, statesmen and diplomats of the past are rolling in their graves.
post #27 of 95
Good point, Dan. If this IS about good vs evil, just ask yourself "What Would Superman Do?" I mean, we don't see him killing Lex Luthor, even though we all damn well know Luthor is going to try to kill him at some point.

If our leader want to think in comic book terms, they should have the balls to think it all the way through.
post #28 of 95
You could ask yourself "what would Batman do?" I seem to recall from the Batman movies that he would ace the Joker.
post #29 of 95
Quote:
sorropa:
You could ask yourself "what would Batman do?" I seem to recall from the Batman movies that he would ace the Joker.
Perhaps you're not familiar with the character, but not only does he refuse to use firearms, but he seeks to avoid murder at all costs possible, no matter how savage the damage his villains have done.
post #30 of 95
Yes, I recall all the great leaders throughout history who were unwilling to confront threats to world peace.
All the great leaders who sat on their hands and hoped for the best.
All the great leaders who decided to get the ok from others before defending themselves.
All the great leaders who stood up to evil and were willing to say "let's get a SECOND resolution...that'll really show 'em we mean business"
All the great leaders who thought following the example of the French and Germans was the best course of action.
All the great leaders who thought being a "moderate" would win wars.

Actually, I can't think of one.
post #31 of 95
The movie is not canon. He never killed anyone in the comics, save for Dark Knight, which is apart of the mytho anyway.
post #32 of 95
Quote:
mikah912:
Quote:
sorropa:
You could ask yourself "what would Batman do?" I seem to recall from the Batman movies that he would ace the Joker.
Perhaps you're not familiar with the character, but not only does he refuse to use firearms, but he seeks to avoid murder at all costs possible, no matter how savage the damage his villains have done.
True, Sorro. The films changed that, but the comics had him avoiding killing his enemies.

Not that holding a comic book character up as an example of what we should do in this situation isn't rather silly.
post #33 of 95
I see Call's pointy little head trying to equate Saddam to Hitler. Problem is, this is NOT a threat to the globe.
post #34 of 95
Quote:
Blunt:
The movie is not canon. He never killed anyone in the comics, save for Dark Knight, which is apart of the mytho anyway.
Ah. I never read the comics, I just saw the movies, and they had an amazingly high body count for superhero movies.
post #35 of 95
I still find the paradox of going to war in order to preserve peace Orwellian and absurd.

I have to ask, once again, are there any indications, let alone proof, that Iraq is planning to attack the US?
post #36 of 95
Quote:
Conflict Lad:
I see Call's pointy little head trying to equate Saddam to Hitler. Problem is, this is NOT a threat to the globe.
How is this not a threat? Saddam is using propaganda that turns people in the Middle East against the US. That, in turn, breeds terrorists, who in turn blow up buildings.

Oh, and in 1936, Hitler wasn't a threat to the globe.
post #37 of 95
Quote:
mastronikolas the butcher:
I still find the paradox of going to war in order to preserve peace Orwellian and absurd.

I have to ask, once again, are there any indications, let alone proof, that Iraq is planning to attack the US?
Besides what Saddam's cronies say every day?
post #38 of 95
Quote:
Call:
All the great leaders who thought being a "moderate" would win wars.
You're right, moderates don't win wars. We don't want to go to war at all.
post #39 of 95
Quote:
Call:
All the great leaders who thought following the example of the French and Germans was the best course of action.
Yes, please forgive us for actually thinking about what course of action is really necessary and not blindly accepting that we must send our people to die for something that's not worth it and will in all probability only cause more trouble. We're really not worthy.
post #40 of 95
It's a tired argument. It's very easy to look back at the 1930's and claim that "appeasing" Hitler was a mistake. WWII has already happened.

But, really, how could the people of 1936 know about it? Unless Chamberlain was a friggin' psychic.
post #41 of 95
Quote:
Call:
Yes, I recall all the great leaders throughout history who were unwilling to confront threats to world peace.
All the great leaders who sat on their hands and hoped for the best.
All the great leaders who decided to get the ok from others before defending themselves.
All the great leaders who stood up to evil and were willing to say "let's get a SECOND resolution...that'll really show 'em we mean business"
All the great leaders who thought following the example of the French and Germans was the best course of action.
All the great leaders who thought being a "moderate" would win wars.

Actually, I can't think of one.
That's because your definition of "confrontation" is using military force to destroy an opponent.

Thank God few elected leaders believe that.

No one is "sitting on their hands." This may seem strange and unfamiliar to you, but we have these odd things called "diplomatic channels" that we use to avert wars and settle conflicts without people dying. They don't settle every conflict, but they do suffice for the vast majority of problems between nations.

As for your "stand up to evil" creed, I'd say that's interesting seeing as we're offering "evil" taxpayer-provided haven and shelter in exchange for letting us have our way. That would be YOUR tax money and mine paying the rent for "evil."

Being a moderate doesn't win wars. Being a moderate helps to avoid them.
post #42 of 95
For the next hundred years any time someone wants to go to war without good reason, they'll be able to yell 'Remember Hitler?' and get dopes to follow them.
post #43 of 95
Did I see someone in this thread advocate using military force and killing thousands and thousands of people because a country is SHIT TALKING the US?
post #44 of 95
Quote:
Dan Whitehead
[QBIt's bitterly ironic that a country that bases its legal system on the principle of "innocent until proven guilty" is now sulking because the international community is refusing to adopt a position of "guilty until proven innocent" on an issue that could easily lead to global war.[/QB]
Just so we're perfectly clear here....

You think iraq is INNOCENT. What exactly needs to be proven here? Did Colin Powell not do that very thing? We have proven conclusively that they are in utter violation of all UN resolutions. Yet, you're still not buying it?
It's very telling that you're so willing to give Saddam Hussein the benefit of the doubt, but want to crucify George Bush and Tony Blair at every turn.

And we have the support of far more countries than are against us. So who is this "international community" that we don't have the support of? Who are we "sulking" about?

Your biases against Bush, Blair, and America seem to be feeding your argument rather than an actual desire to avoid war.
post #45 of 95
Quote:
sorropa:
How is this not a threat? Saddam is using propaganda that turns people in the Middle East against the US. That, in turn, breeds terrorists, who in turn blow up buildings.
</strong>

Of course, bombing these same people and killing untold numbers of civilians generates nothing but good will.
post #46 of 95
I love it when I touch a nerve.
post #47 of 95
Getting back to the great leaders debate, you're absolutely right. If Mahatma Gandhi didn't unleash his hordes of berserker Yogis on the British, India would still be a colony.

And thank God for JFK nuking the Ruskies during the Cuban missile crisis.
post #48 of 95
What I'd like to know is how come, for the last ten years, Irak was left alone (aside from the occasionnal bombing here and there) and now it's suddenly this great danger that must be taken care of right now, yessir we have all the proofs?
post #49 of 95
Quote:
Call:
Just so we're perfectly clear here....

You think iraq is INNOCENT. What exactly needs to be proven here? Did Colin Powell not do that very thing? We have proven conclusively that they are in utter violation of all UN resolutions. Yet, you're still not buying it? It's very telling that you're so willing to give Saddam Hussein the benefit of the doubt, but want to crucify George Bush and Tony Blair at every turn.

And we have the support of far more countries than are against us. So who is this "international community" that we don't have the support of? Who are we "sulking" about?

Your biases against Bush, Blair, and America seem to be feeding your argument rather than an actual desire to avoid war.
Here we go again. Confused intentions to spare.

We have conflicting scenarios:

1) "Evil" that must be "stopped."
2) A country that must be disarmed according to UN resolutions.
3) A regime that is unfriendly to the US and must be changed.

So when you say we have international support, let's be clear that they support number TWO, not the other more jingo-istic scenarios.

And no one here is asserting that they shouldn't be disarmed, but there are other ways to do that besides full-scale invasion and extermination of their system of government.
post #50 of 95
Quote:
Originally posted by Call:
And we have the support of far more countries than are against us. So who is this "international community" that we don't have the support of? Who are we "sulking" about?
Fact: The countries you are talking about are mainly the former communist states of Eastern Europe. They get money from the US and are not going to risk that.

Fact: Polls conducted in those countries show about 80% of the people being against the war.
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