I found some racists who admit it

Look for the phrase "I'm not racist but..."

That's always the giveaway.

How is this racist and sexist?

It's an organisation to help women of all races and ages get educational qualifications. Who's being discriminated against?

I doubt anyone with strongly held racist views would be content to just restrict them to a messageboard. People post on CHUD about movies, doesn't mean they don't watch movies in real life.

According to this logic, we just need some really bitchin' message boards for murderers, rapists, and terrorists, and we can wipe out violent crime almost overnight.

Uhhh...maybe I didn't look hard enough for something to get angry about. Just a lot of fans of bad music rejoicing in a mutual lack of taste.

And giving them their own message board hasn't seemed to make country music fade into the woodwork, so I doubt it'd do the same for society's other ills.

Just curious as to how this is any way, shape, or form a political thread. Other than a snide jab at Chewers who conflict boy holds in contempt I don't see this serving any purpose here.

Should be in Culture at the very least.

watch out, someone can pull the race card on you!

Eh...

wouldn't be the first time in this forum. There are some "stunningly stupid" people here who live for the chance to call others racist.

But this is the eqiuvilant of me starting a thread titled "I found some hippies that admit to bathing occasionally".

Has no place in political discussion.

But as Devin so eloquently put it, we're all racists, everyone on earth. Even him I dare say.

When logical, fair generalizations like that are our starting point, who doesn't want to participate in these threads?

But there's always the fool who will see something (racism, in this case) on a message board and then decide to practice it in real life.

How does the message board posting "keep 'em" from doing the real-life "racial abuse"?

No, it's based on the sad truth that it's harder for women, especially non-white women, to get decent jobs because of discrimination.

You don't think that someone who posts racism on the Internet is going to be racist in real life? That by posting their hatred, they somehow use it up?

So then people who commit racial violence never use message boards and vice versa?

Okay. Just wanted to get that straight.

Attention all black people! Discrimination no longer exists! You can sue it away! Racism is no longer harmful, as long as you don't get punched in the face! As long as it's written down, it doesn't matter! Quit yer whinin' and join the loving melting pot of society!

Just to be "fair and balanced", there are also quite a few angry responses on that board to the racist few. They aren't all sheet-wearers over there...

I think a lot of really racist people don't think they are. My pops is flamingly racist, but when I would call him on it, he would get pretty mad and deny it. But I say someone who, when watching the news, makes racist comments and actually gets angry about seeing black people on the screen is pretty racist.

Oh God, and if he every sees an interracial kiss...fuggetaboutit!

That's the problem these days, and I believe what Devin meant for this thread to be about.

There's two prongs to this, as I see it.

1. The Smart Racist
Has realised that they can't get away with open racism, and so utilises cunning use of language and the law to "smuggle" their hatred under the radar.

2. The Complacent Racist
Honestly doesn't think of themselves as racist, because they think racism means buring crosses and physical violence. They say hello to the black guy at work, but think he probably grew up in "the hood". They're also a bit sick of being made to feel guilty about "the black thing", and believe that - when you think about it - white people get the short straw these days.

Both groups are equally poisonous. But I think it's the second one that is holding race relations back, through apathy rather than protest.

Where would the group of racists who know they are racists and know that society looks down on racism but shout it loud and proud anyway fit in to that scheme? And where would you rank the detrimental effects of that group compared to the Complacent Racist?

I would think this extreme group is less detrimental because they are so far gone that (ignoring the riots that almost assuredly break out at rallies) most people dismiss the hateful rants as lunacy.

I didn't include fuckheads like that because, as you pointed out, nobody but their own takes them seriously and I was thinking more of the covert racism that sparked the thread.

I really do think a good number of racists don't quite realize it...so maybe that would make it less of being a racist as being prejudiced. Remember that study on the black names on resumes? I don't think people overtly though "Man, I don't want this black guy in here." I think it's more subtle. Like "Hmmm, he probably wouldn't fit in." I've met people who believe themselves to be enlightened liberals who were racist. They didn't see it in themselves.

And you have the people who are racists who don't really see themselves that way, but if you call them on it they get mad because you're forcing them to see themselves in that way...so it's more defensive. Like if you know you're an asshole deep inside, but if someone calls you that you still get angry.

No harm? There is no harm in perpetuating hateful ideas? Before there is an action there has to be an idea. There is plenty harm in posting hateful things on message boards. It fuels the fires of other hateful people.

It's no different than gay-bashing a video game you suck at. You either understand what I'm saying here, or you just don't get the power of words.

Good point.

Great points Rampager.

Right. Racism is only sustained by people looking for it, just like these guys on the David Allan Coe board. They could give a crap until anti-racist groups - the towering behemoths that they are - went sniffing around, and then those poor schlubs couldn't get enough of the N-word. If we could just ignore it and "move on," it'll go away. Really. Stop the witch hunt, and these guys go back to normal joes, I tell you.

Please. Your logic would invalidate any sort of regulatory action.

The military exists only to snuff out enemies. Obviously, if they didn't find countries and soldiers to fight everywhere, there would be no need for them, and the people who run it would have to earn their living somwhere else.

Cops exist only to enforce the law by stopping criminals. Obviously, if they didn't that damned crime everywhere they went, there'd be no need for them, and they'd have to get a life.

One word: Duh?

Rampager, you still haven't explained how there isn't any discrimination anymore. Because I've got a whole bunch of people who'd like to prove you wrong.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Happy Rampager:

"But it's the action that causes the harm, not the idea."

Hello, Rampager. Welcome to CHUD. I have to agree with some of the other posters here because an idea can cause harm.

Example: Spilling negative ideas on a public message board in regards to racism will plant bad seeds into the mind of the reader. That, in turn, will lead to a domino effect, thus leading to more harm if those ideas are put into action down the road.

(edited to change can to will)

You racist bastard.

The arrogance of this statement is astonishing. Just curious...what personal experience do you have that allows you to tell black people what sort of racism they should be worried about? If you'd ever had any first hand experience of it, whatsoever, you'd know that racism is far more than just violence or abuse.

This would be a perfectly valid point...if anybody here had said that organizations should penalise people for posting on the Internet. They haven't, so feel free to continue arguing against yourself - it's much easier that way.

And besides, last I heard, "incitement to racial hatred" was actually a crime. Criticising elected officials is not.

But Rampager, all Devin is doing is posting an inaccurate and prejudiced statement about you on the Internet. It's not like he's actualling attacking you...so it doesn't matter, right?

I can't believe Rampager thinks it's only racism if it's spoken or expressed violently.

That's awesome....

</strong>

Ok, I'm sorry. I see now that you don't WANT to be taken seriously when you say stuff like this.

"Abuse or violence" would be the only problems racism causes. Discrimination in hiring, promoting, and rewarding employees that you're racist against...that's not a problem. Teaching your children that people of a different race are inferior...that's not a problem. Furthering the racial divide that plagues America every day...that's not a problem. Ok. Gotcha. Thanks.

</strong>

Who is "targeting" these people? Looks like the board is still up. No SWAT teams are storming the building that hosts the server. No arrests have been made. They're all alive and in some sort of health or another. They're free to express their opinions, as I am free to think of them as toilet scum, or not think of them at all.

</strong>

WHO is targeting these people? WHAT are you talking about?

Huh....what? What sort of penalty are you talking about? That's not even legal. You're free in America to be an ignorant, racist shit. What organization is going after them? Who - even in this thread - is advocating that these people not be allowed to express themselves?

They should. And if I read/hear it, I'll malign it with everything I have because it is wrong. Not just personal opinion here. It IS wrong.

If you think that's experiencing racism then you've pretty much confirmed what I suspected all along. You have absolutely no idea what real racism is, or how it feels to have to deal with it on a daily basis, and yet you feel you can tell people when and how they should be offended by racism.

You have no credibility on this subject whatsoever, so I'll just leave you to carry on digging your own hole.

Are you saying we shouldn't oppose racism? And, please note, that nobody here has suggested that the website Devin used to start the thread should be shut down.

No, you're not going to get any understanding because you yourself have got no way of understanding what racism is, beyond some vague wooly notion of it as a politically correct cause celebre. Until you understand what it feels like to suffer real racism, you will continue to make a dick of yourself.

I weaseled out of nothing. Sadly, the "People Who Have Been Hurt Or Aggrieved By Message Boards" archive was closed this week. Common sense tells me that racist views expressed on a freely accessible media like the Internet can hurt and aggrieve the people referred to.

If you want a practical example, why don't you register with a few random message boards and post messages about niggers, kikes, wops and any other ethnic group you feel shouldn't be offended. Then see how many people are hurt and aggrieved.

You see, this all comes back to your inability to understand what racism feels like. You think racism should only be a problem if people are physically hurt by it. Because you have no understanding of what it feels like, you believe that racist abuse has no effect if it is just written down. But because you have no experience of it, doesn't that suggest that you should maybe shut up and let black people decide what they should be offended by?

I believe it's a crime because people think that anything that encourages people to hate someone else based solely on race is a bad thing and should be stopped. Are you really saying that the free traffic in racist ideas is a sign of a healthy society?

I think Mikah knows exactly what he's talking about on this topic.

</strong>

Well, it's not like town have been wiped out in the name of racism. Not like people have been EXTREMINATED in huge quantities in the name of racism. Not because they "deserved it." Not because they did a single thing to provoke it. Simply because they born with different genes. Yeah...racism is pretty much just an excuse to call someone a name or give them a good thrashing. That's all it's ever been throughout the centuries and in modern day times.

</strong>

So instead of opposing things you find offensive, you should be indifferent to them? Embrace them?

Why are you here then? You're opposed to "police treating citizens like criminals" or gun control or whatever, and you can't shut up about it. I am trying to figure out the harm that these things can cause people, so that they need to be "opposed."

</strong>

The people will be physically harmed by the action, not the words themselves. However, the assembly and planning from terrorist groups or white power groups LEADS sometimes directly LEADS to these actions, which is why "Conspiracy to commit X crime" is a crime itself here in America.

</strong>

Again, you cannot condone and ignore any ideas - unorthodox or orthodox - that exist for no other purpose than harming other people. The expression of those ideas are legal threats and conspiracy, and are prosecuted as such.

That's also the reason that child pornography is prosecurted so heavily and the Internet components that foster it are immediately shut down when detected by authorities. What "harm" is done simply by the ideals of child pronography being freely available on the Net? Well, since the only thing child pornography does is encourage and nurture the violation and abuse of children, it needs to be stopped in every single form.

But I guess you don't mind people assembling to coordinate and share ideas on that subject either.

Ah...nothing like a one sentence reply to a detailed post filled with legitimate points of discussion. The true sign of cluelessness.

</strong>

You know nothing of racism except for its most gentle and unthreatening forms, things anyone who watches a Lifetime movie would be familar with. What Dan means is that you know nothing of cops approaching you with hands on their holsters demanding you get out of the car because you "fit" a description that doesn't match you or your vehicle very much at all. And then being held there for an hour as they search you and "run checks." I know about that, tho, because it's happened to me.

And even THAT is comparatively mild to people getting plungers stuck up their ass, being shot 41 times, and being dragged behind trucks simply because they were born the way they were. no other reason. You have NOT experienced those things. You don't and can't understand them.

</strong>

You need a definition? Look above.

</strong>

Because cops beat people like that to a pulp. Because people lock their car doors when ginger-haired people walk by.
Because people clutch their goods in an elevator and cower when you walk in with glasses.

Again, you understand NOTHING about this.

</strong>

Well, as long as we're generalizing...

I would think STOPPING RACISM would be more important to anti-racist organizations, but since you already have a prejudiced notion that they could care less about that than "political leverage" (makes no sense, since they are among the least powerful lobbies in America) or "censorship" (Also makes no sense, since America hosts countless hate sites and message boards, which are allowed to operated as long as they are supervised for violent threats.)

</strong>

You get mad and whiny simply because you THINK that police think of normal citizens as criminals. I'm guessing some bawling has been involved as well. Yet you think no one will bat more than eyelash if you start slinging racial slurs. Making lots of sense there.

</strong>

This question PROVES you don't understand it. Job discrimination, collegiate discrimination, discrimination in entertainment and media. None of that registers with you because you're so clueless on this issue. None of that falls into your magic trilogy of categories wherein racism is "a problem," yet they tear at the fabric of this country. Your scope is so limited, you can't even COMPREHEND the issue, much less discuss it rationally.

</strong>

You have the nerve to call him an ignoramus when you don't even understand the most basic precepts of this discussion? Astounding...

You can't prosecute thought. Only the action that is the extension of that thought. In America, you'ree free to believe and think what you like. When you express it in a harmful way, then you violate OTHER PEOPLE's rights. You understand that, right?

</strong>

Except that the victims of the holocaust were identified for persecution solely by their RACE. 100 Percent down the line. Is that harmful enough racism for you?

</strong>

But how is that doing any real harm? Accorinding to your thought on racism, we shouldn't even care that much. What "harm" is being done?

</strong>

There has NEVER been a prosecution of a single carbon-based lifeform in America SIMPLY because they have racist beliefs. There's no law against that. They must be tied to an actual crime to get arrested and stand trial.

</strong>

Yes, but the difference is that he doesn't condone or encourage racial violence. He uses it realistically in the context of a fictional character. Not to advance an agenda of racial violence.

Hah. More grasping for straws. When you can't discuss, be an asshole and insult. Have a nice day, sweetie. Your karmic rewards are going to be faaaaaaantastic.

The problem, Rampager, is that you're taking your own experiences and opinions of a subject and basing your wild, sweeping statements on that. You can believe what you want about racism, and how it isn't really an issue unless you're hanging from a tree or bleeding to death in a car park. That's up to you. You're happy in your own narrow little world, and I'm pleased for you.

But when you start deciding how other people should feel about racism - people who have experienced it, people who have been spat on in the street, received hate mail for their race - then you're the one acting like the Thought Police you're so fond of.

As a white man with a hilariously tiny experience of racism, don't you think it's a tad presumptuous to assume how people should react to racial slurs? I've had stomach ache, but I wouldn't presume to know what it feels like to menstruate. I've had dust in my eye, but I don't presume to know what it feels like to be blind.

You had an asian "lassie" say she doesn't like working with white men. Don't presume that means you know jack shit about what it feels like to be a victim of racism.

Hopefully, Dan, he took his ball and ran home to Mommy.

Oh, for fucks sake.

No, I said that - by your own admission - you have had a pathetically minor brush with the world of racism. And you are white, yes?

Can white people be the victim of racism? Of course they fucking can. But they can also shrug it off a lot easier because white people aren't discrimnated against every damn day. Trouble is, you take this and assume that it's just as easy for non-white people to do the same.

If an Asian says to you that they don't like working with white people, you can laugh in their face because nobody will ever stop you from getting ahead in life because of the colour of your skin.

If you say to an Asian worker that you don't like working with Asians, then you've opened up a wound deeper and nastier than your tiny mind can comprehend.

But you honestly can't see that, and that's why this conversation will continue going round and round in circles. But you have helped prove my point about how white complacency helps perpetuate racism. Thanks. Now you can go back to putting your head back in the sand, fuckweed.

</strong>

Oh, you ride the little, yellow school bus home from school? Why didn't you tell me?

Here. Here's the point real slow so you can understand it.

Nobody.

Prohibits.

Racism.

Itself.

In fact, it's constitutionally-protected as free speech and belief. What is not protected is speech or planning that directly causes physical harm to others. That's illegal because it's practically the same as hurting the person yourself.

No one issaying that the people on this David Allan Coe messageboard are advocating physical harm. What has been said is that SOME racist speech on messageboards - not this one - does drift into the advocate/spurring on/causation of physical harm category. This was said in response to your claim that racist speech on a messageboard was not worth worrying about as it was more acceptable than outright physical abuse or harassment.

Well, it isn't. Grand murderers like Pol Pot, Hitler, Milosevic and Hussein personally kill very few people, but they've orchestrated the murder of untold millions collectively. With their SPEECH and their BELIEFS.

</strong>

Because in many cases, these idiots are stupid enough to detail their racism in "private" emails or memos, and sometimes they just outright and unabashedly say why they discriminate.

</strong>

I believe you're asking what purpose does hate crime PROSECUTION serve? The answer is that motive must be taken into account when sentencing and prosecuting a crime. You can shoot someone out of self-defense. You can shoot them because of insanity. You can shoot them accidentally. You can shoot them in a moment of unbecoming passion out of your control. You can shoot them spur of the moment. You can plan to shoot them.

All of these offenses should be and are evaluated and prosecuted differently. Racial hatred is simply another motivation to take into consideration.

</strong>

Listen, child. Do you want to discuss the issue or do you want to exhaust your meager supply of feeble barbs that impress your fellow yokels down at the gun range?

Umm. Ok. Now are you ready to actually say something relevant to this thread that makes any sense?

Probably not. Although he is starting to talk like Yoda, which is quite funny.