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Who marched?

post #1 of 230
Thread Starter 
<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2765215.stm" target="_blank">http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2765215.stm</a>

I marched today in Reykjavik Iceland. In my country 90 % of the Icelandic people are against war in Iraq according to polls. Millions of people protested today in europe. Did you march?
post #2 of 230
Got an e-mail from a friend of mine in NYC:
Quote:
wanted you all to know I had a great time marching for peace today -- about 200,000 people in all. I met my friend at Grand Central planning to head toward the UN, but apprently that area was already filled up - so the police shut down Third Ave. from 42nd up to 59th street and we took to the streets (despite the city not issuing a permit to do so...give me a break) There were some great signs, thoughts, and altogether good vibes. Made me feel patriotic. Gotta do what you can!
post #3 of 230
Went and couldn't even get close. The protest went for TWENTY BLOCKS uptown and at least two avenues. I would say 200,000 is an understatement.

1 million showed up in Britain and Rome, respectively.
post #4 of 230
Amazingly, none of it will make two shits worth of difference.
post #5 of 230
Nor should it. But at least they feel good, got some fresh air.
post #6 of 230
It'll make a difference. Nice to see people using their freedom.
post #7 of 230
They might want to get outside now all they can, before they have to spend a week duct-taped in their closet.
post #8 of 230
Quote:
Blofeld Lansdale:
Nor should it. But at least they feel good, got some fresh air.
Nor should it? Not a fan of the people having a say?
post #9 of 230
Don't try to turn this into some kind of muzzling argument, Devin. People can protest all they want. But I don't believe people who have no specific knowledge should have any impact based on their general feelings.
post #10 of 230
That's what democracy is all about.

And to say that these people have no knowledge is an unfair generalization.
post #11 of 230
Yep. The U.S. granted at least 1-million high-security clearances to New York citizens. And most of our high-level intelligence resides in Iceland.
post #12 of 230
Great defeatist attitude. Only the big white guys in charge have any clue what's going on! They must be holding back all the REALLY good evidence, no point in sharing that stuff with our allies or their own people!
post #13 of 230
I don't think it's defeatist as much as just a fact. They have declassified a lot of stuff, but I would imagine that's just the tip of the iceburg. The government isn't careless enough to give away things that will get our HUMINT sources killed.
post #14 of 230
That must be why there's no good evidence of anything.
post #15 of 230
Quote:
Maxwell Demon (devin):
That's what democracy is all about.
We're not a democracy. WE're a republic. The big white guys (some of whom are black, asian and hispanic among other races) are the ONLY ones who should have a say because they are the ONLY ones who have all of the intel. That's the way it is.
post #16 of 230
We're a democratic republic. We choose the old white guys. Unless it's a presidential election in Florida.
post #17 of 230
I liked this article.

From <a href="http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=51&ItemID=3019" target="_blank">here</a>.

We Shall Not Be Moved

by Mark Steel
The Independent
February 11, 2003

Every veteran of protests and demonstrations agrees – nothing has ever been like this. The tradition is that you inform an average civilian that you're going on a march, and they look at you with a mixture of puzzlement and pity, as if you'd said you were spending the weekend morris dancing. But this time they say: "Oh yes, on Saturday. We'll all be there." This is wonderfully encouraging, but slightly disconcerting. These people are your neighbours, your cousin, the bloke you sit next to at the football: they're not supposed to go on demonstrations. It's like being 19 and your grandma saying: "This week I'll come with you to the Ministry of Sound to get off my face. But I must make sure I don't mix up my Es with my green ones."

If you think I exaggerate, amongst those proud to be photographed signing petitions against the war have been Chris Evans, Jerry Hall and Jimmy Hill. What if you find yourself next to Jimmy on the march? That would be like one of those weird dreams that troubles you for a week. Especially if he starts chanting.

One of the organisers of this Saturday's march guessed that 60 per cent of those attending will be taking part in their first demonstration. She told me: "We get dozens of calls from people who ask questions such as, 'Where do I register?'" Which reminds me of my own confusion when I first took part in a march, in support of the Anti-Nazi League in 1978. Right up until it set off, I wondered whether, when on a march, you actually marched. I was unsure whether everyone got in line and kept step, making me slightly anxious that I'd be the only one shuffling out of formation, so that somewhere around Piccadilly Circus the whole thing would stop, with 100,000 people muttering: "Nurr. He's spoilt it for everyone."

My next protest was more typical. It took place outside the Foreign Office, and was against the Labour government's links to the Shah of Iran. While 1 per cent of Iranians had access to medical facilities, 40 per cent of the country's budget went on arms, and Britain was happy to be one of the chief suppliers. One of the Shah's tricks was to use his secret police force, known as Savak, to bulldoze entire villages if he suspected they were harbouring dissidents. (At that point it seemed that British and American policy towards a Middle Eastern tyrant who murdered his own people was to sell him weapons of mass destruction.)

There were only about 30 of us at the protest, and I had no idea what I was supposed to do. If you arrive at a party on your own, at least you can use small talk to get to know people, but it seemed inappropriate to wander up to someone on a protest against the selling of tanks to a dictator and say: "Hello, I'm Mark. Did you have to come far?" Then the chanting started. Someone would yell "David Owen" and everyone would shout back "Shah's puppet". Should I join in? What if there was some hidden rule, such as not shouting back after every fifth "David Owen"? Then I might shout "Shah's puppet" on my own, while everyone else put their heads in their hands and said: "All right, let's start again."

Throughout the 1980s there were regular protests involving a sizeable minority of the population. More than 100,000 marched separately against unemployment, against apartheid and in support of the miners, but there were countless other actions that didn't achieve quite that prominence.

One of the strangest protests I took part in was when an unemployment march staged a publicity stunt by invading Eton College. The advance was led by a posse of Glaswegian teenagers with spiky orange and purple hair at a time when spiky orange and purple hair was deemed to be terrifying. As we ran through the gates the Eton boys fled, their black cloaks streaming elegantly behind them as they dived inside the school building like batsmen in danger of being run out. Once inside they hurriedly bolted a vast wooden door as if they were being chased by a mummy in a horror film.

But my lowest point came when four of us from our left-wing political group decided to join a "Round London March for Jobs" as it passed nearby. We waited at the edge of the Wandsworth Road, and eventually six people strolled past carrying a banner. "Excuse me, are you the march for jobs?" we asked. They said they were. Unfortunately, they were also from a different political faction to us, and their leader said: "You can't join us if you carry that banner. We've got widespread trade-union backing for this march, and you'll jeopardise our support with that banner." We said: "There's six of you." This made no difference, so we folded up our banner and marched behind them. They refused to talk to us. And I was acutely aware that everyone who drove past was looking at us as if to say: "Is that a march, or 10 blokes on the way home from the pub who've found a banner in a skip?" I was grateful that they didn't know the truth: that six of us were thinking: "This was all right until the other four turned up."

So can a demonstration make any difference? One of the standard official responses is to insist that protests involve only a handful of fanatics. This is an attitude that assumes that people are too dumb to get annoyed about being mistreated, and that the only ones who complain are those on the fringes of society. So I'm sure that when the Romans marched into a field in search of Spartacus, they said: "There's nothing to worry about here. They're all middle-class students pretending to be slaves."

A tougher objection is that, however well intentioned, demonstrations tend simply to be ignored. The first answer to this must be that at certain times, mass protest clearly has made a difference. It's doubtful whether suffrage would have been won without the agitation of reformers and Chartists, including a demonstration of 300,000 in south London in 1848. Similarly, the poll tax would probably still be with us if it hadn't been for the famous Trafalgar Square demonstration in March 1990.

In time of war, governments are especially sensitive. During the Napoleonic wars, the protests in Britain against Prime Minister Pitt's invasion of France reached such a level that government agents were sent into anti-war meetings as spies and the leaders were arrested. Pub landlords were threatened if they allowed meetings on their premises, and teachers were sacked for "traitorous expressions". (What did they say: "This war isn't clever and it isn't funny"?).

King George III imposed the custom that after any military setback there should be a national fast, which protesters delighted in ignoring. This must have been marvellous; the only demonstrations in history that involved not undergoing discomfort such as walking three miles with a banner, while all those conforming couldn't wait for it to end. But none of this would have been imposed unless Pitt and the King had felt threatened by the protests in the first place.

During the American Civil War, Lord Palmerston was keen for the British Navy to intervene on the side of the South, but changed his mind abruptly after a series of enormous British protests in support of the slaves. And the many demonstrations around the world against the Vietnam War clearly played a part in forcing America eventually to call the carnage off.

Perhaps the greatest impact a large demonstration has is on those who take part, as each person becomes aware that they are not on their own. As an isolated individual, your protest may not extend beyond swearing at Newsnight, but sensing that you're part of a mass movement can transform the same person into someone eager to support the boycott, resist the bigot, circulate the petition or stand in front of the tanks in Tiananmen Square. It's impossible to say which specific events led to the fall of apartheid, but it's fairly certain that if no one had ever protested against it, it would still exist.

George Bush Senior said that one of his main concerns before the last Gulf War was "the strength of the anti-war movement". And he faced nothing comparable to the vast wave of Jimmy Hill-supported opposition encompassing the planet now. For Saturday, 45 coaches have been booked from the centre of Sheffield, more than 50 from Bristol, and 50 plus a train from Central Manchester. The island of Jersey is holding its own demonstration, which is sure to be its biggest ever, beating the previous record, which was apparently against the destruction of a popular hedge.

But the nature of the opposition can be better understood from the individual stories. For example, a group of nuns in Hackney have formed an anti-war group, and have taken boxes of badges and leaflets, which should surely form the plot for a remake of The Sound of Music. A schoolboy in Muswell Hill has persuaded the local chip shop to give out a leaflet for the march with every bag of chips. An 80-year-old woman in Hampshire rang the Stop the War office to say she was sorry she couldn't get to the march as her limbs were a bit dodgy, but instead she was willing to make her protest by lying down in the middle of the M3. What a magnificent catchphrase: "I'm prepared to lay down on the motorway – but that's it."

A typical letter to the office came from a rugby player who says he told his club he couldn't come to the annual dinner and piss-up as he was going on the demonstration, at which point several of his team-mates announced that they were going as well. What will the traditional left make of that, when one section of the march is punctuating the chants with attempts to light their own farts? A group formed on the internet has recruited 9,500 supporters from 82 countries; it's calling itself "Masturbate for Peace", boasting such slogans as "Whack your sack, not Iraq".

But, best of all, 60 schoolboys are going from an anti-war group formed at Eton College. From out of the same gates through which we poured 20 years ago will come a batch of public schoolboys, this time not to run from a demonstration, but to join one. One of the protesters told me: "This is schoolboy-led, as only a small minority here are pro-war."

For most people, Blair and Bush have simply lost the argument. Despite being in a hole, these two politicians can't stop digging. Every piece of compelling new evidence for the necessity of war turns out to be even more ludicrous than the last, so we've now arrived at plagiarised student theses and crackly intercepted phone calls that couldn't secure a conviction for possession of dope. And this to justify chucking around the armed might of the greatest superpower the world has known, the equivalent of a Bali bombing every night for as long as it takes. All this will be carried out in the name of human rights and democracy by the power that destroyed both in Chile, Guatemala, Nicaragua and Indonesia. It will be in the name of ridding the world of chemical weapons, by the power that spread napalm and Agent Orange across half a continent. It will be to rid the world of a dictator who gassed his own people and invaded Iran, when those acts could only have been carried out with the backing of the superpower in the first place.

Robert Del Naja of the pop group Massive Attack said last week: "Before the last Stop the War demo, I felt uneasy about telling my friends I was going on it. This time my attitude is, if they're not on it I shan't speak to the fuckers for two years." If that's not enough incentive, consider that if you're not there you run the risk of being more apathetic on the issue of human rights than Jimmy Hill.
post #18 of 230
Quote:
capteucalyptus (Scott Roche):
The big white guys (some of whom are black, asian and hispanic among other races) are the ONLY ones who should have a say because they are the ONLY ones who have all of the intel. That's the way it is.
You'll excuse me if, in the wake of last week's bizarre incident, which saw Colin Powell dubiously (i.e. incorrectly) spinning the latest bin Laden tape for the American public before any legitimate press could translate it, I refuse to trust this administration's methods of interpreting their intel.

However, you're certainly welcome to your blind faith.

(Edited for a minor grammatical error.)

post #19 of 230
Quote:
...spinning the latest bin Laden tape for the American public before any legitimate press could translate it...
Ok ok ok...let's take this statement one step at a time and see what we come up with...

"spinning" -- As in the spinning of a turntable or the type of spin each and every politician does on a daily basis? Because if you're saying that Powell "spun" this tape's translation hoping to pull a fast one I must ask you this: Do you really think that the translation wouldn't be made by many Arabic-speaking people in the wake only to show Powell's translation incorrect? Hell no! That would be utterly stupid and we know that Powell is anything but.

"American public" -- While it is true that much of this is selling the "war" to the American people this demonstration was for the World, otherwise it would have been made in Congress or another venue. This was as much for the "World Community" as it was for Americans.

"legitimate press" -- Now, I don't even know quite what to do with this adjective/noun pair. You mean every Network carrying the Powell speach and presentation wasn't "legitimate"? Faaascinating.

"translate it" -- Once again, do you seriously think the Administration would have come up with some other translation that any Arabic-speaking person would easily dispute? I mean come on! That's ludicrous. I'll bet there were tens of thousands of Arabic-speaking Americans who listened to that tape. I have yet to hear of any other translation. That would be big big big news.
post #20 of 230
Wasn't it claimed that the bin laden tape somehow PROVED that bin laden and Iraq were in cahoots? And wasn't it closer to the truth that bin laden was basically telling the Iraqi people that they should fight the Americans and that he would put aside his hatred of their leader to support them?

My understanding of this tape is that it really shows that Al Qaeda and the STATE of Iraq have little to do with each other, or at all. And as far as I think most of the world is concerned, that would be the only good reason for an action against the country. Any other reason would be aggression; only by proving an Iraqi OFFICIAL connection to attacks against America could the administration justify this as anything other than aggression.
post #21 of 230
Nothing will ever tie Bin Laden officially to Saddam. On that you can count.
post #22 of 230
Marchers around the world via Yahoo News

Quote:
750,000 in London, 1 million in Rome, 660,000 in Madrid, 70,000 in Amsterdam, up to 500,000 in Berlin...
About 80,000 marched in Dublin, Irish police said. Crowds were estimated at 60,000 in Seville, Spain; 40,000 in Bern, Switzerland; 30,000 in Glasgow, Scotland; 25,000 in Copenhagen, Denmark; 15,000 in Vienna, Austria; more than 20,000 in Montreal and 15,000 in Toronto; 5,000 in Cape Town and 4,000 in Johannesburg in South Africa; 5,000 in Tokyo; and 2,000 in Dhaka, Bangladesh.
yep.. the opinion of this total crowd of well over 3.2 million people means nothing in the long run.. right? right?
post #23 of 230
Quote:
The Daimler-Kronos Corporation:
Nothing will ever tie Bin Laden officially to Saddam. On that you can count.
How about reasonably? Realistically?

Face it, there is no connection.
post #24 of 230
Here's the problem: Powell tells the Budget Committee that this tape is further proof of a "nexus" developing between Iraq and al-Qaeda before it had been received and translated by Al-Jazeera (and later translated independently by the BBC or the AP). Once the tape was received, you had one state department official on the air, again before the translation was released, claiming that bin Laden was lashing out at everyone save for Saddam.

<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2751019.stm" target="_blank">Reality</a>: the tape shows that bin Laden is courting the heart and minds of the Iraqi people by imploring them to rise up against the greater of two evils (that would be America vis-a-vis their own "socialist" or "enslaved" regimes), but there is no pledging of support for Saddam (who is indirectly referred to as an "infidel" in OBL's screed). And it certainly does not demonstrate a growing "nexus" between Iraq and al-Qaeda.

Are bin-Laden's overtures cause for concern? Hell, yes. They have been since before 9/11, but this speech was nothing new, and Powell's was a doubly cheap ploy if only because it pre-emptively (I'm lovin' that word today) translated the speech before it could be done so objectively.
post #25 of 230
Quote:
Jacktorrance1:
Marchers around the world via Yahoo News

Quote:
750,000 in London, 1 million in Rome, 660,000 in Madrid, 70,000 in Amsterdam, up to 500,000 in Berlin...
About 80,000 marched in Dublin, Irish police said. Crowds were estimated at 60,000 in Seville, Spain; 40,000 in Bern, Switzerland; 30,000 in Glasgow, Scotland; 25,000 in Copenhagen, Denmark; 15,000 in Vienna, Austria; more than 20,000 in Montreal and 15,000 in Toronto; 5,000 in Cape Town and 4,000 in Johannesburg in South Africa; 5,000 in Tokyo; and 2,000 in Dhaka, Bangladesh.
yep.. the opinion of this total crowd of well over 3.2 million people means nothing in the long run.. right? right?
I've read the Montreal protest may have been upwards of 100 000 people.

<img src="http://montreal.indymedia.org/local/webcast/uploads/metafiles/05-ste-catherine.jpg" alt="" />
post #26 of 230
Quote:
Maxwell Demon (devin):
Quote:
The Daimler-Kronos Corporation:
Nothing will ever tie Bin Laden officially to Saddam. On that you can count.
How about reasonably? Realistically?

Face it, there is no connection.
Reasonable ties to Saddam? I'm not sure what that would mean.

Realistic ties to Saddam? I personally have no knowledge of such.

My position stands...I wouldn't bomb, invade, or otherwise attack Saddam unless one of two conditions are met:
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Saddam sends men, equipment, and/or missiles/weapons of any sort over his border.
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A gas, biological or perhaps "dirty" nuclear/radiological-based weapon gets released on the U.S. -this could extend to anywhere if UN chose to do so.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Linkage would be assumed. I know what you're thinking now and you're right...but those would be the conditions. Peace is maintained as long as no NBC weapons are released. After all, Bin Laden/Al Qaeda do not have the tech to do it him/themselves. Therefore the source for the weapon -not the components' source- would almost certainly have to be Iraq.
Many years ago there were a spate of terrorist attacks stemming from Lybia. When we finally got fed up wit it we sent ordinance to Lybia. Terrorists bombed, we slapped Qadaffi. Another terrorist attack, we slapped Qadaffi.

It worked...without the French allowing our overflights.

I'm just sayin'...
post #27 of 230
It seems to me that Iran would be a much more likely suspect for supplying terrorists with radioactive material.
post #28 of 230
Whatever they have or acquire in the near-future, I'd lay all my money on it having originated from the Russian black market.
post #29 of 230
I don't think there are any links that can be proven between Saddam and terrorism.

But do any of you seriously doubt that Saddam actively supports and funds terrorist activity?
post #30 of 230
So does America. Big deal. I doubt he supports Al Qaeda, who look at him as an infidel.
post #31 of 230
Quote:
Maxwell Demon (devin):
It seems to me that Iran would be a much more likely suspect for supplying terrorists with radioactive material.
I would tend to agree with that.
post #32 of 230
Quote:
Maxwell Demon (devin):
So does America. Big deal. I doubt he supports Al Qaeda, who look at him as an infidel.
It doesn't matter if he supports Al Quaeda. Its a War on Terrorism, not just Al Quaeda. I am admitting that there is no proof that he does or trying to justify any type of war with him, I'm just saying, do you doubt it?

(I'll ignore the typical "America is the most evil country in the world comment")
post #33 of 230
It's not typical, it's TRUE. America has funded groups that are terroristic in nature, and I am certain we still do. We'll find out the truth one day.

You're just itching for a reason to kill a lot of people. It's like killing a guy and then saying "Did you doubt he diddled his kids?"

You need to have proof, not a really good instinct about it. Let's try to at least pretend we're civilized.
post #34 of 230
And once again you add insults...

I'm not itching to kill anyone. I'm not looking for excuses, spin, or rhetoric.

All I'm asking is, do you doubt that Saddam supports terrorism and actively funds them?

Notice there was none of the following: 1) So does America do it to? 2) Will we know the truth? 3) So, Devin, what do you think of me as a person?

And while we are at it, why don't you take some of your advice and try to stay civilized? That would be nice.
post #35 of 230
It doesn't matter what I doubt. It matters what can be proven.

Having no doubt is not an acceptable pretext for war.
post #36 of 230
I've thought about this for a second and I want to apologize to the people in this thread. Its not about whether Saddam supports terror or any evidence we do or don't have for or against war.

Its about people talking about a peaceful protest and sharing their thoughts on it and experiences in it.

I will bow out somewhat un-gracefully and wish you all the best. Other threads are the place for this, and I'm sure I will see some of you in them.

(and Devin, once again it was a yes or no question. But I digress.)

post #37 of 230
Quote:
Clarence Beaks:
You'll excuse me if, in the wake of last week's bizarre incident, which saw Colin Powell dubiously (i.e. incorrectly) spinning the latest bin Laden tape for the American public before any legitimate press could translate it, I refuse to trust this administration's methods of interpreting their intel.

However, you're certainly welcome to your blind faith.
Blind faith? I was just stating how things were. Sorry for the Poli Sci lesson.
post #38 of 230
<strong>
Quote:
Clarence Beaks
spinning the latest bin Laden tape for the American public before any legitimate press could translate it,
The New York Times? The Washington Post? CBS News?
post #39 of 230
(Standard Fox News joke reserved for this spot)
post #40 of 230
Sadly, it's going to take a WTC attack about once a month for people on BOTH sides to get their shit together.

I can't believe how utterly lame (and predictable) the human race has become.

How's that for "defeatist"?
post #41 of 230
What does WTC have to do with Iraq? That's what this day of protest was about - Iraq ONLY.
post #42 of 230
You put on very narrow blinders when it helps you argument, and take them off when it helps your argument.
post #43 of 230
Explain. Because if you can show me enough evidence that Iraq was involved in 9/11 to warrant killing hundreds of thousands of people in an invasion, I would like to hear it.
post #44 of 230
Quote:
Blofeld Lansdale:
You put on very narrow blinders when it helps you argument, and take them off when it helps your argument.
But maybe narrow blinders are necessary when it comes to the lives of our men and the innocents that will die. Yeah, Saddam is a horrible bastard. But I dont think he had shit to do with 9-11 and I dont think he will have anything else to do unless we back him into a corner, the same thing OUR intelligence agencies told us. We are just ignoring one set of ideas for another now. I'd rather be putting the pressure where it is much more deserved, Iran, Saudi Arabia and North Korea, but if you guys want Iraq as a scapegoat...as a bad guy between the fight on terrorism, well thats up to you. Lets just see how far we can push people.

And maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it comes out tomorow that Saddam really is Bin Laden and I'm one dumb motherfucker. Well I guess I'll have to deal with that too.
post #45 of 230
Quote:
capteucalyptus (Scott Roche):
Blind faith? I was just stating how things were. Sorry for the Poli Sci lesson.
And I was stating that I don't trust their interpretation of said intel like I know you do.
post #46 of 230
Explain. If you can show me evidence that shows that bin Laden and the Taliban are the only folks who harbor a religious fervored hatred toward us, and are the only ones who would think slaughtering us by the thousands would be justified...

How many more on-soil attacks slaughtering us do you need before you get off your pacifist stance? As I recall, you couldn't even support an attack against the Taliban, but you sure came forward to speak about how deeply effected you were after 9/11.
post #47 of 230
Saddam is a secular leader.

And are you saying that we should blow the shit out of anyone who might one day want to take a swing at us? I hope you're not raising your kids with those kinds of beliefs - they'll be fighting every kid on the school bus who looks at them funny.
post #48 of 230
And I didn't support attacks against the Taliban because I did not feel killing thousands of innocents - which is what happened - would make up for the killing of thousands of innocents.
post #49 of 230
Quote:
Call:
The New York Times? The Washington Post? CBS News?
It must be wonderful not having to think for yourself.

For the record, I listed the AP and the BBC above, but, yeah, the New York Times and the Washington Post are far more trustworthy than your precious Fox News.
post #50 of 230
Quote:
Blofeld Lansdale:
Explain. If you can show me evidence that shows that bin Laden and the Taliban are the only folks who harbor a religious fervored hatred toward us, and are the only ones who would think slaughtering us by the thousands would be justified...
But how does this tie into Iraq? The evidence shown so far only places an al-Qaeda camp in Northern Iraq, outside of Saddams rule. And if the guy coming into Baghdad for medical attention is the best we can do, we should've bombed the hell out of Iran a long time ago.

If you're so concerned about Islamists (which I am, as well), you should be wondering why we haven't dealt with Saudi Arabia and Iran more harshly.
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