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America, WMD and the Batman paradox

post #1 of 13
Thread Starter 
In the days leading up to the war, one of the things I kept hearing people say (and that I said myself) was, "Why are we going after Iraq, who MIGHT have WMD, when we know that a crazy ass country like North Korea DOES have WMD?" That's a reasonable question, and the obvious answer is - we don't want a nuke tossing contest on our hands. It's the deterrence factor that kept the good old Cold War chugging along for oh so many decades.

What does this say to the rest of the world? If I'm El Presidente of a nasty nation that may have supported terrorists, or who really just hates the US, or who happens to be sitting on a bunch of oil, I start to realize that America is not going to come after me if I have some WMDs sitting out back. I take the Kim Jong Il route and stock up those bad bitches, and even more than that - I start waving them around. And you know what happens in that scene in a movie when some poor bastard is scared shitless and waving a loaded gun around, right? It accidentally goes off. I mean, this is one of those things that you see coming the second the sweaty, twitchy Steve Buscemi type picks up the gun. You sit there wondering who he's going to accidentally kill - the hero, the girlfriend, the innocent little kid?

We're creating a world where nations are going to scramble for WMDs. They are going to see the US stomping around the globe smashing countries without WMD (or at least the will to use them) while utterly ignoring countries that do have them. It's like we're creating a nice warm wet climate for proliferation to grow out of control, just like that mossy green shit all over Stephen King in Creepshow.

There's this interesting paradox in Batman comics that I like a lot. In the comics, Batman dresses as a huge bat looking guy to strike fear into the hearts of criminals (what with them being a cowardly and superstitious lot). But his presence in Gotham City ups the ante, bringing crazier and more dangerous criminals out of the woodwork. Do we want to fill the world up with more wacky supervillains, each more willing than the last to do something really out of control?
post #2 of 13
Amen. This whole Iraq/North Korea deal is saying to third world nations to buy nukes as soon as possible if they don't want to be invaded.

Bush is making the world a more dangerous place.

By the way, I was thinking of all the conservatives claiming that not going to war was similar to Chamberlain appeasing Hitler. I've been thinking this in relation to North Korea and I came to the conclusion that, if we follow this logic, what's happening now is similar with Chamberlain choosing not to attack Germany but Bulgaria instead.
post #3 of 13
The Batman paradox is very intesting.

And scary, because it seems like that's how it is.
post #4 of 13
Another way to look at it
In the 90's we didn't do much in the way of going after terrorists as we are now. First World trade Center-arrested some guys, Africa Embassy bombings and USS Cole-a few missles. We also left Somalia after US soldiers were killed. The terrorists saw this as weak and used it as a recruiting tool saying the U.S. didn't have the stomach to fight.
President Clinton got what at the time seemed like a good deal to have North Korea not have a nuclear weapon program. The N. Koreans still went on to devolpe nukes anyway.

The "Batman" theory has some valid points, but if rogue countries and terrorists are going to do these things anyway I'd rather the gov't go after them. What would Saddam have now or done to the Kurds if there was no military presence there after the Gulf war?
post #5 of 13
Thread Starter 
Do you care what Turkey does to the Kurds? They have massacred them as well. Why don't we invade there?

Also, Iraq had no connection to 9/11.
post #6 of 13
Let's just say that I'm the brutal dictator of Craponia. I'm not a nice guy, but I'm not really planning to rain death on the globe. I'm happy in my palace, harassing my people.

Then Dubya goes on the air and tells that the evil regime of Craponia is a member of the axis of evil (TM) and will be dealt with.

I'm starting to feel uneasy. I look up the other members of the axis of eeeevil and see that Iraq, which has no nukes, is being bombed to shit, while North Korea, which has, is left alone.

What would I do? I'd try to find my own nukes asap.

Now, if I'm also a bonkers brutal dictator, I might start thinking about launching those nukes first, since Bush is saying they are going to kill me anyway. Make a pre-emptive strike on their pre-emptive strike. It's not like I have anything to lose.

If I don't find nukes, since my military is no match compared to the US military, I might start thinking of slamming a few passenger jets on buildings.

In either case, the world is a more dangerous place and innocents risk dying.

As far as the real terrorists are concerned, the problem with them is that they act independently of countries. Therefore, old-fashioned war does nothing against them. If anything, it leads more people to them. If you are young, fandamentalist and stupid, you might consider "payback" against a mighty military force that bombs those who can't resist, by strapping explosives on you and charging. If your house was just demolished by a Tomahawk, even more.
post #7 of 13
Thread Starter 
This is one of the threads that I make that SEEMS ripe for intelligent debate and meaty thoughts yet it sinks.

It really seems like the only threads that people want to respond to involve snide comments and sarcasm. It's why sit ins and traffic blocking make more news than a teach in. Same intellectual laziness.
post #8 of 13
Quote:
Devin hates Saddam, hates the war:
This is one of the threads that I make that SEEMS ripe for intelligent debate and meaty thoughts yet it sinks.

It really seems like the only threads that people want to respond to involve snide comments and sarcasm. It's why sit ins and traffic blocking make more news than a teach in. Same intellectual laziness.
I bring up points about appeasing terrorists and Saddam. I bring up North Korea going after nukes when we aren't attacking anybody and all you say is "The Turks attacked the Kurds what about that" I also made no mention in this thread od Saddam and 9/11 and you brought that up out of nowhere.

I was open to discussing your idea but you passed mine on without a thought like you do with ANYONE who disagrees with you.
post #9 of 13
Thread Starter 
You're the one who brought up the Kurds, who have no bearing on anything, in the first place.

And I don't even understand the first part of your post - I am not saying that this is the ONLY reason nations get WMD. I am saying that the actions of the US are going to speed up the acquisition of WMD.
post #10 of 13
Thread Starter 
And I venture that you don't understand what appeasing means, since I don't think we could have ever been accused of doing that.
post #11 of 13
Quote:
Devin hates Saddam, hates the war:

And I don't even understand the first part of your post - I am not saying that this is the ONLY reason nations get WMD. I am saying that the actions of the US are going to speed up the acquisition of WMD.
and i'm saying that's not necessarily true. India, Pakistan, North Korea all made nukes without us attacking them or attacking countries for the threat of nukes. These countries wanted nukes to sit at the big boys table.
post #12 of 13
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Anyawatcher:
Quote:
Devin hates Saddam, hates the war:

And I don't even understand the first part of your post - I am not saying that this is the ONLY reason nations get WMD. I am saying that the actions of the US are going to speed up the acquisition of WMD.
and i'm saying that's not necessarily true. India, Pakistan, North Korea all made nukes without us attacking them or attacking countries for the threat of nukes. These countries wanted nukes to sit at the big boys table.
Those countries got nukes to deter enemies - Pakistan and India to deter each other, North Korea to deter the rest of the sane world.
post #13 of 13
Or, one could be a totalitarian 'ally' like Uzbekistan.
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