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I Am A Patriot

post #1 of 36
4/4/02 at 7:27pm
Thread Starter 
I found this to be a well-written piece of prose on the current state of affairs in our good ol US of A. Thought I'd post it all for everyone to check out. (I can't remember where it is originally from - I saw it on a political messageboard in one of our local newspapers websites)

"I Am a Patriot"
By Frederick H. Winterberg III

If being a patriot means hanging an American flag from the antenna of one's car or from the flagpole in front of one's house, then I don't qualify.

If being a patriot means standing behind the president, no matter what he and his administration do , then I guess I'm out on that count too.

If being a patriot is not voicing your opinion because it goes against what the government is saying, I lose again.

If being a patriot means giving up my civil liberties, then I guess I'm out of luck.

If being a patriot means supporting the use of torture in questioning suspects, holding people indefinitely without bail or legal representation, or holding military tribunals to try "war criminals" out of the sight of the public and judiciary, then I am the antithesis of a patriot.

And yet this is what our government is calling for, in the name of patriotism. Anybody who doesn't get in lockstep behind the president and embrace what I've outlined above is considered a traitor, or worse, a terrorist.

And yet, in my heart, I know I'm a patriot.

I am a patriot because I dearly love my country and what it purports to stand for. I love the idea of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, without interference from the government. I feel blessed to have grown up in a country with guaranteed basic human rights, which is so much more than many people in the world receive. I cherish the right to speak my mind when I want, where I want, on whatever subject I want, no matter how much it may go against the beliefs of those around me. And I cherish the right of other people to do the same, even when what they say infuriates me. I am grateful for my right to privacy, to be free from intrusive searches and seizures by the government and police without a warrant and just cause. I am thankful for the beauty and splendor of this country's untouched and undeveloped areas, where the true beauty of nature can still be experienced and appreciated. And above all, I appreciate more than anything else the right to live my life as I see fit, without any government, religion, or corporation telling me what I should and should not, or can and can not do.

For these reasons, and many others, I am a patriot.

In the wake of September 11, the government has, with predictable zeal, gone after the very things that I cherish about my country and that make it a special place to live. Our rights are flying out the window at an alarming pace. My privacy can be invaded, my home searched without reason, the environment and nature are being bulldozed in the name of profits and oil. I could even be jailed for writing this piece.

Yet I am still a patriot.

I will not abandon my country by moving to Canada or another country because I don't like the way this one is being run. I will not stand silent as my rights are being stripped, even though to speak out against the government these days is considered treasonous. I will not "watch what I say, watch what I do", as the President's press Secretary advised us. No, I will stand and fight for what I believe in. I believe in the constitution of the United States, and what it stands for. I believe in all the things I spoke of above that I love and cherish about this country. Most of all, I believe patriotism comes from within, from a place deep inside me. Not from a flag, not from my possessions, not from my stature in society or how much money I make, not from getting in line behind those in power because they tell me it's the right thing to do. To me, it is to stand up and fight for what I believe is right for myself and my country in the face of adversity, which is what we are facing now.

And that, in my opinion, is the true definition of a patriot.
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post #2 of 36
4/4/02 at 9:43pm
J you are a tad bit fanatical. Did you know that? I thought all the fanatics swung to the right? But it is good to see someone passionate about there ways and yet manages to be quite civil to others who don't neccessarily agree. I am a bad Independent.

Of course you're still wrong....in some areas.....in some areas. wink
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post #3 of 36
4/4/02 at 10:34pm
I am not a patriot.
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post #4 of 36
4/4/02 at 11:29pm
I am only what I am. period.

and to the above....Ouch!
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post #5 of 36
4/4/02 at 11:37pm
God, what a boring post.....
blah,blah,blah
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post #6 of 36
4/5/02 at 12:20am
Quote:
jabbadonut:


"And yet this is what our government is calling for, in the name of patriotism. Anybody who doesn't get in lockstep behind the president and embrace what I've outlined above is considered a traitor, or worse, a terrorist."
Tom Daschle asks for Bush to put forth well-defined parameters of his war on terrorism, and gets slammed by the conservatives. Note that Daschle WASN'T slamming Bush personally, nor his handling of the situation so far, he was merely trying to put an end to the blank check the White House has been working with for the past 7 months.

Ascroft goes before the House and starts getting asked some tough questions about how the USA PATRIOT act does a nifty end-around on the Bill of Rights; he huffily labels his questioners as being more or less "terrorist sympathizers"

The editorial (and devin, for that matter) is not off base; dissent, whether popular or not, is essential to democracy. And the current atmosphere is squelching that dissent.
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post #7 of 36
4/5/02 at 12:26am
That is absolutley UNTRUE. This is such hypocrisy. No one is shutting down free speech in this country. This is all from people who aren't happy unless they think they are being oppressed in some way.
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post #8 of 36
4/5/02 at 12:28am
Nice arguments boys.

I thought Joram—(NOT DEVIN)—Manka posted an excellent, well-written article. This is hardly a far-left, line-drawn-in-the-sand, attack on 'conservative' thought. In fact, the article is quite consevative: "I love the idea of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, without interference from the government." Indeed, the article could justly be called 'Republican' in its small-government sentiment.

Of course, one may also find that the concepts of republican, democrat, liberal, conservative, left, right, and so on, are trite media perversions; definitions hacked together for the television-numbed masses, and represeted by the political ramblings of all to many this board.

Of course the undermining of your(America's) Republican—locally controlled—eductation system helped create this.

And the Unconservative commercialization of things.

And the double-speak which makes Washington a modern Moscow.

And all those other things one likes to classify, as left or right, on the basis of whether or not one approves.
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post #9 of 36
4/5/02 at 12:31am
Quote:
Adam Warren
[QB]
And the double-speak which makes Washington a modern Moscow.

QB]
Interesting quote. Don't really agree with it, but it's a good quote nonetheless.
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post #10 of 36
4/5/02 at 12:32am
Quote:
call7001:
That is absolutley UNTRUE. This is such hypocrisy. No one is shutting down free speech in this country. This is all from people who aren't happy unless they think they are being oppressed in some way. Just get over it.
Har har. I'm right, you're wrong.
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post #11 of 36
4/5/02 at 12:33am
I don't think this guy is Devin either by the way.
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post #12 of 36
4/5/02 at 4:32am
For anyone who thinks Joram is Devin...well...you guys have not been reading up on your Chud history. <a href="http://www.chud.com/about.php3" target="_blank">http://www.chud.com/about.php3</a> check it out..Joram it is a privelage posting in your thread.
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post #13 of 36
4/5/02 at 1:06pm
Hes not Devin.
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post #14 of 36
4/5/02 at 3:06pm
These "patriots" as they are scurrying to identify themselves as have been saying all along that our rights are being taken away and that they can't say anything against the government because they'll get locked up. This is such an over-the-top hysterical reaction that it is laughable now that months have passed and freedom is the same.

How many of you have had your privacy violated? How many of you actually know someone else who has? I'm asking a serious question, so feel free to respond. Thus far the only "documented cases" are from the partisan publications and websites that this "patriot" probably prescribes to.

Why do Republicans attack Daschle? Its not to crush dissent, its because he's two-faced, praising the war to people who support it, and trashing it in for cheap political gain behind closed doors. They're oposed to him because he and a few other Democrats would rather halt the war and operations for political gain than let the job get done.

Look, this guy has all the right he wants to say whatever he wants. The same naysayers are saying the same things they've always said. If they feel like they're being silenced, maybe its because the majority of people don't agree with what they're saying anymore. This editorial is irritating only because of its holyer-than-thou undertone, that "I am a patriot and those who support the things I oppose are really not."
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post #15 of 36
4/5/02 at 3:16pm
Thread Starter 
You are correct in saying I'm not Devin

As for my views, or anybody elses' views on the board, I think it would be difficult to assess where everyone is coming from yet. This is a very young forum.

What I'm looking for is discussion of the hot topics in the country. I like offering different viewpoints than you'd normally hear on FoxNews, O'Reily Factor, and some of the more conservative news outlets out there.

I'm not going to snipe or name call or any of that. It's not my style. If others with to point fingers and say stuff, that's for them to do.

For me, the mission has already been accomplished. I'm seeing a bunch of alternate viewpoints on many topics here in the Political Forum. Adam is a great moderator - his concise and thought-out post above proves that.

Looking forward to more my friends

Joram
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post #16 of 36
4/6/02 at 3:41am
Someone told me that I was mentioned here.

Joram, you will find no decent debate with these right wing boneheads. They just spout the latest Limbaughism or whatnot.

Stick to the movie forums, where you can at least yell at them for spewing their political hate speech.

OK, back to other message boards!
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post #17 of 36
4/6/02 at 5:25am
<img src="http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:6iMS9vyV4oIC:www.interfacesw.com/images/troll" alt="" />

Ah, Devilf. So predictable. Lead with the questioning of intelligence, sure to be followed by the assigning of prejudice...

...the memories, the memories.
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post #18 of 36
4/6/02 at 12:33pm
Quote:
Stew
These "patriots" as they are scurrying to identify themselves as have been saying all along that our rights are being taken away and that they can't say anything against the government because they'll get locked up. This is such an over-the-top hysterical reaction that it is laughable now that months have passed and freedom is the same.
Yeah, well, the last 6 months have been filled with over-the-top hysterical reactions across the board.

But it is correct in that saying something against the government CAN result in dire consequences; under the wonderous USA PATRIOT act, the flimsiest of excuses (or perhaps none at all) can lead to wiretaps and 'secret searches' of your home. Monitoring the civilian populace without their knowledge in the name of national security? Sounds downright Orwellian to me.....
Quote:
How many of you have had your privacy violated? How many of you actually know someone else who has? I'm asking a serious question, so feel free to respond.
I have not. But what bugs me about the USA PATRIOT act is the same thing that bugs me about the forfeitures and mandatory minimums of that other abortion of civil rights known as the War on Drugs: historically, when law enforcement gets its hands on new, looser guidelines, they will run with them and use them to the benefit of the PD, FBI, ATF, or whomeever, not to the benefit of those they are trying to protect.

Quote:
This editorial is irritating only because of its holyer-than-thou undertone, that "I am a patriot and those who support the things I oppose are really not."
Perhaps I have a different view because I'm more in agreement with the article, but I took it as being more of a "I don't have to fly a flag and sing 'God Bless America' at the ballgame to love my country"
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post #19 of 36
4/6/02 at 1:00pm
You know what amuses me? Slighting people for thinking differently. Slighting people for wanting the best possible outcome, and not just an outcome. That's what amuses me.
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post #20 of 36
4/6/02 at 1:02pm
This is not my work, it's quoted from a message board at a pay site:

Quote:
I found it interesting this week to read that a bevy of people are lining up to protest that Patriot Act thing that was so quickly passed by Congress last October. Conservatives and liberals alike are screeching about the intrusions on our liberty that the act made legal.

<a href="http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/epaper/editions/thursday/news_c3badf89f2d560a2004d.html" target="_blank">link to article</a>

Also, a friend of mine's dad is a former president (or whatever they call it) of the American Legion. He absolutely hates those flags hanging off the cars, American flag clothing and the like. He considers it all very unpatriotic
I forget the leanings of the person who posted it, but the article is definitely worth reading for those who dismiss all questioning of the gov't or concerns about civil liberties as "liberal whining."
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post #21 of 36
4/6/02 at 1:17pm
Quote:
Kevin Matchstick:
You know what amuses me? Slighting people for thinking differently. Slighting people for wanting the best possible outcome, and not just an outcome. That's what amuses me.
It's the definition of best possible outcome vs outcome that is at the heart of all political battles.
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post #22 of 36
4/6/02 at 1:18pm
Quote:
jabbadonut:
It always amuses me when I hear the word "patriot" used by those who, at the same time, look for fault in governmental policies, who try to find things wrong with what the country is doing, who protest anything they can, and who claim they are just trying to make the country better.

They may love this country, but they ARE NOT patriots. A patriot dies for his or her country. A patriot stands up for his or her country and supports the policies of it's government. A patriot is not ashamed to fly the flag and sing "God Bless America" at the top of his or her lungs.
Well, I don't fly a flag - I was going to get one, but I didn't feel comfortable getting one after 9/11 - not due to policy, but mainly because I didn't want to be lumped in with the "America is so important to me now" bunch. A couple of my friends who were in the military opined that the new-found, breast-beating patriotism of the post-9/11 variety was irritating.

And if you fly a flag and bellow "God Bless America," I have no problem with that. The point is, if I don't, am I suddenly a piece of shit who should move to Canada because I don't love my country? Apparently.

And serving/dying for the country (I equate military service as close enough - you sign on the line, and you are willing and pretty much required to die for your country, should the occassion arise) and questioning policies are NOT mutually exclusive. Many military people VOCALLY objected to Clinton allowing gays in the military; many Vietnam vets joined the protests to end the war. Yet by your definition of patriot=defends and supports country, right or wrong, they are apparently patriots and non-patriots at the same time, a category a find a trifle bemusing.

Bottom line, I guess I view the person who has the biggest flag with a skepticism similar to the person singing loudest in church.
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post #23 of 36
4/6/02 at 1:21pm
Quote:
Burke:


Ah, Devilf. So predictable. Lead with the questioning of intelligence, sure to be followed by the assigning of prejudice...
LOL! Have you been reading the "devilf Posting Handbook" for pointers, Burke? Because you sure pegged the M.O. correctly.
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post #24 of 36
4/6/02 at 3:42pm
First off I think we need to ditch the Left(non patriots) and Right(will agree to anything said by R. president) mentality we have around here. We just further entrench ourselves in stereotypes and such that will get us nowhere when disscussing issues among ourselves. Too much, "you left SUCK THIS" and "you right BLOW THIS"

If we can get past this and stop looking like the people running this country, no matter their stance, then we are well on are way to making huge strides in botherhood!

I am independent yet I do tend to lean torwards the right but that doesn't mean anything the left says is wrong. The party system has become a idealogical system and IMHO should be gotten rid of. Get rid of Republicans and Democrats because unfortunately all they can do is bicker and fight and even in light of 9/11 they still mamange to point fingers and close their ears. Pretty much like kindergarten. Of course that will probably never happen but last time I checked this was a government of the people and not the suit and tie with a big paycheck. Oh well.

As for just spouting the recent Limbaugh retoric I will tell you I do not listen to him nor anyone else. What I believe in I believe in from within. When an issue is presented to me I listen to both sides *gasp* and then come to a conculsion on my own terms. I live in Cali. Namely a democratic state. You would think in this neck of the wodds that is known as Southern california i would have a more "free-thinking" attitude. I do. Its called my own head. Now I know I will never be the most informed man but I sure as hell know what I believe and think about issues. Face it, many democrats just reject anything Republican and Republicans reject anything Democratic. This needs to stop. This is American. Land of the Free. Home of the Brave. Not a bunch of hard headed men and women who refuse to listen to each other.

We have a great thing on these boards. Namely we have many different opinions from many different age groups able to come together and dicuss, not bicker, about what is going on in today's world. Yea we all have our reactions torwards things that happen instantly. Those things that get underneath our skins and we lash out. It happens. But we should make it happen less here considering the fact we are not face to face with each other. We can say things after taking some time to think it over and let emotions die down. Not saying you should give up your passion. Instead temper it. I am extremely idealistic. Hence me bothering to lay this out out for each of us so that maybe, just maybe, we can all become better people from each other. Who knows, we may even get to like each other (OH MY!). Time will tell.

As for the seemingly mention of only the US in these discussions I am just directing the basis of my contribution to the "right and left" discussion the predominate this board.
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post #25 of 36
4/7/02 at 5:52pm
Quote:
CTDelude (Sojourner):
I am independent yet I do tend to lean torwards the right but that doesn't mean anything the left says is wrong. The party system has become a idealogical system and IMHO should be gotten rid of. Get rid of Republicans and Democrats because unfortunately all they can do is bicker and fight and even in light of 9/11 they still mamange to point fingers and close their ears. When an issue is presented to me I listen to both sides *gasp* and then come to a conculsion on my own terms. You would think in this neck of the wodds that is known as Southern california i would have a more "free-thinking" attitude. I do. Its called my own head. Now I know I will never be the most informed man but I sure as hell know what I believe and think about issues. Face it, many democrats just reject anything Republican and Republicans reject anything Democratic. This needs to stop. Namely we have many different opinions from many different age groups able to come together and dicuss, not bicker, about what is going on in today's world. Not saying you should give up your passion. Instead temper it.
Hey, who let the level-headed guy in here

Excellent post with many terrific points. Especially the "left (or right, depending on your leanings) does not mean ALWAYS WRONG"; some here would do well to look at an issue from the other side; you may not agree any more with the position, but you'll understand the why and what of it more, which never hurts.
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post #26 of 36
4/7/02 at 6:55pm
Here's a question: If I truly believe that my way of thinking is best for the country and the world why the hell would I ever compromise myself and my thoughts for the sake of "getting along"? That's insanity.
I want my side to win. Every single time. I'm sorry that I don't agree with compromise as a general rule, but I think compromise usually leads to more trouble.
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post #27 of 36
4/8/02 at 5:00am
jabbadonut:

Representatives aren't elected by the votes of all the people, only some of them. If they are wrong, still stand by the system that chose them, not their flawed ideas and words. Not agreeing with the opinions and policies of politicans doesn't make someone unpatriotic. I think that "a true patriot" supports the ideas that the country stands for and was founed on. The words on the constitution and the bill of rights spell out those ideas, and they are more the identity of this country than the words of any politican.

And we may be saying WE MADE A MISTAKE, but shouldn't we be able to right that mistake. Its like Joe Pesci said in that one movie: "The founding fathers were great men because they know one thing all great men know, that they didn't know everything. They knew they'd make mistakes and left a way for them to be changed." We are responsible for putting into place for those who govern, but the responsibility doesn't end there. A concerned and even "patriotic" citizen keeps an eye on what is going on in government and has an opinion, and isn't afraid to let that opinion be heard. Our form of government depends on those opinions and voices to function. The will of the people can't be served if no one will speak up and let it be known.
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post #28 of 36
4/11/02 at 12:09am
Download Makeshift Patriot by Sage Francis. Its a great song dealing with patriotism after September 11th.
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post #29 of 36
4/11/02 at 2:10am
[quote]El-Topo:
Quote:

Oh, and about America: no-one in this thread mentioned the Cuban camp of Guantanamo, where suspected terrorists are held, and where the army has allegedly been guilty of torturing the prisoners, and certainly of denying them all basic human rights.
Because we covered this s couple of months back. It was bullshit then and it still is. Those "men" are not being tortured.
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post #30 of 36
4/11/02 at 10:38am
Silvio writes a mean patriot song, sung best of course by Eddie Vedder:

I Am A Patriot

and the rivers shall open for the righteous
and the rivers shall open for the righteous
and the rivers shall open for the righteous, someday
i went walking, with my brother
and he wondered, oh, how i am
said what i believe with my soul
ain't what i see with my eyes
and there's no turning back this time
i am a patriot, and i love my country
because my country is all i know
i wanna be with my family
people who understand me
i got no place else to go...i am a patriot...
i went walking, with my girlfriend
she looked so fine, i said baby what's on your mind
she said i wanna run like the lions
released from their cages
released from the rages burning in my soul tonight...i am a patriot...
and i ain't no communist, and i ain't no socialist
and i ain't no capitalist, and i ain't no imperialist
and i ain't no democrat, i sure ain't no republican either
i only know one party, and that is freedom, i am, i am, i am
i am a patriot, and i love my country
because my country is all i know
and the rivers shall open for the righteous
and the rivers shall open for the righteous
and the rivers shall open for the righteous, someday
someday, someday, someday...
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post #31 of 36
4/11/02 at 11:20am
Here's my view of Patriotism in a nutshell:

Some see America as One Nation, Indefensible.
I see America as One Nation, Indespensible.
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post #32 of 36
4/11/02 at 11:42pm
Ok well, here are the lyrics to Makeshift Patriot. Tell me what you think.

Makeshift Patriot
The Flag Shop Is Out Of Stock
Hang Myself...Half Mast

Makeshift Patriot
The Flag Shop is Out of Stock
I hang myself...via live telecast

Coming live from my own funeral...the beautiful weather offered a nice shine
Which is suitable for a full view of a forever altered skyline
It's times like these I freestyle biased opinions every other sentence
My journalistic ethics slip when I pass them off as objective
"Don't gimme that ethical shit."
I've got exclusive, explicit images to present to impressionable American kids
And it's time to show this world how big our edifice is!

That's exactly what they attacked when a typically dark skinned Disney villain
Used civilians against civilians and charged the trojan horses into our buildings
Using commercial aviation as instruments of destruction
Pregnant women couldn't protect their children
Wheelchairs were stairway obstructions
Now I have to back petal...from the shower of glass and metal
Wondering how after it settles we'll find who provided power to radical rebels
The Melting Pot seems to be calling the kettle black when it boils over
But only on our own soil so the little boy holds a toy soldier..
And waits for the suit and tie to come home. We won't wait 'til he's older
Before we destroy hopes for a colder war to end
"Now get a close up of his head..."

Makeshift Patriot
The Flag Shop Is Out Of Stock
Hang Myself...Half Mast

Makeshift Patriot
The Flag Shop is Out of Stock
I hang myself while the stock markets crash

The city is covered in inches of muck
I see some other pictures of victims are up
Grieving mothers are thinking their children are stuck
Leaping lovers are making decisions to jump
While holding hands...to escape the brutal heat
Sometimes in groups of the three
The fall out goes far beyond the toxic cloud where people look like debris
But all they saw after all was said...beyond the talking heads
Was bloody dust with legs looking like the walking dead calling for meds
Hospitals are overwhelmed. volunteers need to go the hell home
Moments of silence for fire fighters were interupted by cell phones
Who's going to make that call to increase an unknown death toll?
It's the one we rally behind
He's got a megaphone...and he's promising to make heads roll
So we cheer him on, but asbestos is affecting our breath control
The less we know...the more they fabricate...the easier it is to sell souls
An addictive 24 hour candle light vigil in TV's
Freedom WILL be defended...at the cost of civil liberties
Viewers are glued to television screens
Stuck... cause lots of things seem too sick
I use opportunities to pluck heart strings for theme music

I'll show you which culture to punp your fist at and what foot is right to kiss
We don't know who the culprit is yet...but he looks like this
We know who the heros are. Not the xenophobes who act hard
"We taught that dog to squat.
How dare he do that shit in our own back yard!"

They happened to scar our financial state and char our landscape
Can you count how many times so far I ran back this same damn tape?
While a camera man creates news and shoves it down our throats on the West Bank
With a 10 second clip put on constant loop to provoke US angst

So get your tanks and load your guns and hold your sons in a family huddle
Because even if we win this tug of war and even the score...humanity struggles
There's a desperate need of blood for what's been uncovered under the rubble
Some of them dug for answers in the mess...but the rest were looking for trouble

Makeshift Patriot
The Flag Shop Is Out Of Stock
Hang Myself...Half Mast

Makeshift Patriot
The Flag Shop is Out of Stock
I hang myself, don't waive your rights with your flags
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post #33 of 36
4/12/02 at 11:35am
...

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post #34 of 36
4/12/02 at 1:46pm
Nice with the patriot lyrics, Kirby. That's the first thing that came to my mind when I saw this topic.
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post #35 of 36
4/12/02 at 3:08pm
From Webster:

Quote:
Main Entry: pa·tri·ot
Pronunciation: 'pA-trE-&t, -"ät, chiefly British 'pa-trE-&t
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French patriote compatriot, from Late Latin patriota, from Greek patriOtEs, from patria lineage, from patr-, patEr father
Date: 1605
: one who loves his or her country and supports its authority and interests
For perspective.
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post #36 of 36
4/13/02 at 12:07am
[quote]call7001:
Quote:
El-Topo:
Quote:

Oh, and about America: no-one in this thread mentioned the Cuban camp of Guantanamo, where suspected terrorists are held, and where the army has allegedly been guilty of torturing the prisoners, and certainly of denying them all basic human rights.
Because we covered this s couple of months back. It was bullshit then and it still is. Those "men" are not being tortured.
"men"?

You lose right to your species once you become a bastard... Sorry, must of forgot that rule.

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