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Anti-semitism Canary Choking - Page 2

post #51 of 55
nelson, your post is so stupid as to leave me breathless

Adam, what I mean with that is I think that Israel would have become a severely segregated state. I believe that arabs in Israel would be kept down and treated poorly, like blacks in south africa. Anytime that you base a nation on religion or race, you are AUTOMATICALLY relegating those of other religions or races to an inferior position.

Now my pithy one sentence statement makes it sound like I think the Palestinians would be dead, but I think it is more likely that all the disputed territories and settlements would just be Israel. There would probably be slums within the country where arabs live, and they would have subpar living conditions, jobs, rights, etc.

Obviously I'm building an alternate history in my head here, so there isn't a lot to base this theory on. Maybe a peaceful series of protests would have created an atmosphere wherein Israel did not become so militarized. But I sort of doubt that - the nation would still face hostility in the area.
post #52 of 55
Quote:
Kronos:
You see, that makes just far too much sense. If the Palestinian people had done this, and if the Isrealis had committed an unprovoked attack such as that in Jenin, then World Opinion would be so far away from support of Isreal as to make them a real pariah...and a political liability.
Which is exactly what I was thinking: every nation would've inveighed against Israeli aggression, and the Palestinian cause would've been as righteous as it honestly should be. Instead, it's undercut by the Arab equivalent of the extreme religious right (the cultist folk who bomb abortion clinics), rendering unavoidable offensives like the one just concluded.
post #53 of 55
Thread Starter 
Uber-academic Rex Murphy speaks on the issue of critizing Israel:

Some of Israel's critics are more equal than others

By*REX MURPHY
****
Saturday, April 27, 2002 –*Page*A19

Is it possible to criticize Israel and not be anti-Semitic? It's a question for the sandbox and six-year-olds. The answer? Yes.

It's possible to criticize Jean Chrétien and not be anti-Liberal. It's possible to criticize Svend Robinson and not be anti-NDP. And it's possible to criticize Israel, or Israeli policies, or Ariel Sharon, and not -- emphatically not -- be anti-Semitic.

A slightly tougher or more honest set of questions might be: Can one scrutinize Israel with a moral microscope but put on a blindfold before turning to the Palestinians -- and claim to be fair? Is news of an Israeli atrocity seized on with great eagerness while, say, a Passover butchery of civilians is, if at all, brought into the discussion only reluctantly and with much moral throat-clearing? Do you wait up at night for the bad news about Ariel Sharon but put out a "do not disturb" sign for any bulletins of Yasser Arafat's duplicity?

If the answer to these questions is "Yes," then the wonderful theoretics of criticizing Israel and anti-Semitism are, while diverting, perhaps not as much to the point as one would like to believe.

Do you find it easy to call Israel a "terrorist state" and find it difficult to talk about terrorist suicides? Do you talk of Jenin as the site of a "massacre" but withhold that term from any description of the suicide-terror campaign?

If you have done these things, you may not be anti-Semitic -- but you do have a problem setting up the moral context for a discussion of the Middle East.

The real conundrum for those agonizing over their criticism of Israel and whether this might be construed as anti-Semitism is a question that, so far as I can tell, no one wants to ask: Is it possible to be anti-American and not criticize Israel?

Professional anti-Americans really don't have much field of manoeuvre when it comes to Israel. America is Israel's sponsor, its friend and ally, so obviously Israel cannot be right, ever.

If Israel is under the protection of the imperialist, globalist, capitalist hegemon, why then -- pass me the old res ipsa loquitur, the thing speaks for itself -- Israel must always be wrong. The Israeli side of the current agony in the Middle East is, unfortunately for Israel (and for any serious discussion of the problem), being forced to carry the burden of a considerable store of anti-Americanism.

It hasn't been easy to be full-throttle anti-American since Sept. 11. The jingoism of the anti-capitalists has been muted. The silence has been purely tactical. In some circles -- this is a sea change -- anti-Americanism isn't even polite.

But Israel is a wonderful proxy for the anti-American crowd. Israel would "behave" if only America would tell it. Mr. Sharon would rein in the army if only George W. Bush, who holds the leash on Mr. Sharon, would pull it. So here is the real dilemma for those who sense discomfort in criticizing Israel and worry out loud whether their criticism might be, or might feed, the great ugliness of anti-Semitism.

It is that their position on Israel is pre-determined by their commitment, their vocation, of anti-Americanism. They are prejudiced against Israel by the logic of their movement. They are, as it were, pro-Palestinian by default. They take sides and wake up to find themselves sharing parts of the landscape with some very scary people who really are anti-Semitic.

The French, who can be a very delicate bunch when it comes to "theorizing" the world, have awakened in just such a place. Jean-Marie Le Pen doesn't agonize over anti-Semitism. But he is the second-place finisher in the first round of a presidential election in the most subtle country of Europe. But there's nothing subtle about Mr. Le Pen, who has offered the observation that the Holocaust is only a "detail" of history.

The French, and the left in particular, are horrified. They are protesting en masse. How did this happen? How did he get out of the box? It might be that the habit of exercising superior moral scrutiny of other nations, such as the U.S. and Israel, left some in a torpor as to conditions much closer to home.

It might also be that relentless condemnation of Israel, unaccompanied by any nuance that the Middle East is much more than a story of victims and oppressors, has made it easier to lift the quarantine that has been on the very idea of anti-Semitism since the death camps of the Second World War.

Is it possible to criticize Israel and not be anti-Semitic? Of course it is. Sometimes, it is necessary to criticize Israel. But not from habit or ideological reflex. Because then it's remarkably similar to an ancient and pernicious prejudice. And that quarantine on anti-Semitism that the world thought it had laid down forever is closer to breach.

--- Globe and Mail
post #54 of 55
Quote:
devilf:
Kronos, what does the past 2000 years have to do with anything? What does it especially have to do with the Palestinians?

Your argument here is pretty close to the argument that some people have for slavery reparations. But for some reason you have no respect for the hundreds of years of oppression blacks have faced. Interesting to see what your heirarchy of racial preference is.
kronos;

Did you notice that once you countered and specifically answered the original post, you are now having generalities thrown at you, "What does the last two thousand years have to do with anything?" As is the fight between the Israelis and Arabs hasn't been going on for thousands of years. I thought you handled the situation extremely well. I did want you to know that there are others besides yourself who notice that when you use logic it is normally met with vague generalised attacks.

I have to admit, the tired old tactic of somehow trying to tie you into the the slavery trade has worn a little thin. Well, I guess if I was trying to defend their insane views I'd have to resort to some such nonsense. Hang in there, you must be making sense. You are attracting to much attention.
post #55 of 55
Quote:
nelson:
Quote:
Seahawk®:
Devin, like Adam said, can you find some other way to make your point instead of personally attacking and mudflinging?
remember the tale about the duck & the scorpion?

It's his nature.
Ziiiiiiiiiiiing! Nelson shoots, he scores, the crowd goes wild!
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