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post #51 of 116
[quote]Guttenberg Fan Club:
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Anyawatcher:
Quote:
Jacob Singer:
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Originally posted by Anyawatcher:
[qb]So because some crazy idiot kills 10+ people with a sniper rifle we should outlaw guns?
Who here said that?

It was said in the article. The DC sniper case was mentioned as a way to introduce this doomed bill.
But it wasn't the reason FOR the bill, which is what you made it sound like.

The sniper was used because it is a high profile example. Considering the daily gun deaths across the nation, they couldn't bring up all of them.
I was using the DC sniper thing as what the legislature was using as a high profile example. If it wasn't that case it be another.
It wasn't meant to read that beacaus of thiat case, not the thousands of others killed by guns, only the sniper case is why the Bill was being introduced.
post #52 of 116
Anyawatcher, any individual occurance might be the catalyst for introducing a bill, but it doesn't mean there isn't other precedence to support it.
post #53 of 116
Quote:
Jacob Singer:
I can see thomas.galvin at the gun shop now:

"What kind of gun would Jesus have used?"
He advocated that His followers carry swords. I'm generally more comfortable with blades.

Quote:
By the way, that Miami Herald link is an opinion piece, hardly statistical proof. You want hard facts, look at the American Medical Association's numbers on gun deaths in this country.
The AMA does not, however, report how many of those deaths were committed by guns that were already illegal, nor how many crimes were prevented by a weapon. In fact, they have no way of doing so.
post #54 of 116
Quote:
thomas.galvin:
nor how many crimes were prevented by a weapon. In fact, they have no way of doing so.
BINGO
post #55 of 116
So because they can't report something it simply doesn't happen???
post #56 of 116
Quote:
Jacob Singer:
Anyawatcher, any individual occurance might be the catalyst for introducing a bill, but it doesn't mean there isn't other precedence to support it.
I know that, but these politicians are using this high profile case to stir up emotions.
The bill was doomed from the start and was probably put in to make the wacky left in the Dem Party(small minority) happy.
post #57 of 116
Quote:
Poxy Von Sinister:
So because they can't report something it simply doesn't happen???
No, but if your going to make a claim, there should be facts that back it up.
post #58 of 116
Not entirely a bingo. I would think if you wanted facts about crimes thwarted by guns, you'd have to consult FBI crime statistics or something, not the AMA. Why would they have that info?
post #59 of 116
Pirahna, there are no statistics that show that guns deter crime. Seriously, find some. It's like the Death Penalty in that way.

As for Poxy's question - you shouldn't claim something has an effect you can't prove.
post #60 of 116
[quote]thomas.galvin:
Quote:
nor how many crimes were prevented by a weapon.
If there were a large number of crimes being pevented by guns I can practically guarantee that those stats would be plastered all over every piece of paper the NRA sends out. The fact that they are not says a whole bunch. Pro-gun groups will latch onto any story that even implies that a gun somehow prevented a crime and yet these stories are still very few and far between.
post #61 of 116
Quote:
Devin moves 4th dimensionally:
Pirahna, there are no statistics that show that guns deter crime. Seriously, find some. It's like the Death Penalty in that way.
I'm not saying for certain that they do. Only that I've heard statistics that say they do. I don't subscribe to them because I haven't read them.

But to say that since the American Medical Association can't figure out how many crimes are prevented with guns is like saying that no one can...that's screwy, because why would they figure this out? It's not their job. Why don't comic book stores determine how many planes take off each day? Why would they?

Certianly somewhere there are statistics going into this. What they prove or don't, I can't say.
post #62 of 116
Quote:
Devin moves 4th dimensionally:
Quote:
thomas.galvin:
nor how many crimes were prevented by a weapon. In fact, they have no way of doing so.
BINGO
Because they are a medical association, and do not have access to police reports.
post #63 of 116
Well, somebody must, right? Yet we don't see them here. We see made up numbers only, nothing backed up.
post #64 of 116
Quote:
Devin moves 4th dimensionally:
Well, somebody must, right? Yet we don't see them here. We see made up numbers only, nothing backed up.
When a claim is made, you ask where the numbers are. When you are shown numbers, you say there is no correlation. It would be much simpler for you to say "I just don't like guns."
post #65 of 116
Guns are weapons of mass destruction?

I'm a liberal, and I have to say that's a bit of a stretch.

Let's not let flawed metaphors keep us from the true argument.

A gun, that's not very dangerous.

Gun FREAKS, now they're dangerous.
post #66 of 116
You show me numbers that have no substance. Just because a flyer SAYS 2 million crimes are stopped doesn't mean that it's true. There is no documentation of that number.

Tell you what - I'll whip up a PDF that says that guns are bad, Jesus is fake and you should send me all your money. Since you believe anything you read, I take PayPal.
post #67 of 116
Thread Starter 
Sorry, got stuck in a damn meeting.

Anyway.

Here's the first I found, after a quick search, showing, in fact, firearm ownership LOWERS crime.

Quote:
International Crime Victim Surveys
From, of all places, the United Nations, comes this look at crime rates and victim attitudes for 17 major industrialized countries. What is of interest to gun owners is the not-so-surprising revelation that England now has the worst crime rate of all major countries. Following a near-total ban on civilian ownership of firearms, crime in England began to skyrocket. In the UN study, researchers found that nearly 55 crimes are committed per 100 people in England and Wales compared with an average of 35 per 100 in other industrialized countries. England and Wales also have the worst record for "very serious" offenses, recording 18 such crimes for every 100 inhabitants, followed by Australia with 16 (yet another country that has all but banned legitimate self-defense, thus creating a lucrative hunting ground for criminals). The link is to the ICVS homepage; study data are available for download as Acrobat pdf files.
<a href="http://www.unicri.it/icvs/publications/index_pub.htm" target="_blank">Report is here, if you care to dig for it. </a>

Here's one showing showing concealed carry laws BENEFIT the police

Quote:
The Impact of Gun Laws on Police Deaths
This groundbreaking study, published in The Journal of Law and Economics, has discovered that states implementing concealed carry laws benefit the safety of police. The author, David B. Mustard of the University of Georgia's Department of Economics, found that allowing law-abiding citizens to carry concealed weapons "does not endanger the lives of officers, and may help reduce their risk of being killed." This is an Acrobat pdf file.
<a href="http://www.terry.uga.edu/people/dmustard/police.pdf" target="_blank">Report is here, if interested. </a>

And Devin, just for you

Quote:
Guns in America: National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms
A federal grant from the Clinton Justice Department went to two anti-gun scholars to fund this research project. Result: findings which support the work on defensive uses of firearms done by Dr. Gary Kleck of FSU. Kleck's research has been unfairly vilified in the media, but now even anti-gun researchers are admitting to more than a million defensive uses per year. The above link is to a text version; the 20-page report is also available as an Adobe Acrobat file.
I'll bold this part, just for fun:
but now even anti-gun researchers are admitting to more than a million defensive uses per year.

<a href="http://www.ncjrs.org/txtfiles/165476.txt" target="_blank">Report here, if interested</a>

Two more, just for fun:

Quote:
Crime, Deterrence, and Right-to-Carry Concealed Handguns
This is the famous 1996 Lott and Mustard multi-year study which proves the link between concealed carry and the lowering of the crime rate. Several download options available.
<a href="http://www.lib.uchicago.edu/~llou/guns.html" target="_blank">Report here, if interested</a>

Quote:
Crime and Justice in the United States and England and Wales
This Clinton Department of Justice study looks at crime in the U.S. vs. the U.K. from 1981-1996. Gun control in England is nearly total, with yet another major ban passing in 1997. England's attempts to control its society-wide crime problem with ever-more restrictive gun control have proven to be a dismal failure.
<a href="http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/cjusew96.htm" target="_blank">Report here, if interested</a>

Happy reading Devin.
post #68 of 116
Thread Starter 
Stupid double post.
post #69 of 116
Then please use your above statistics to explain Japan.

And try to find "facts" that aren't thinly disguised NRA releases.
post #70 of 116
Just thought i'd mention that half of gun deaths in this country are suicides. I bet the NRA wishes these people would just stick their heads in the oven and let the gas rip. That'd bring those gun death numbers down.
post #71 of 116
Quote:
Daywalker the killer white rabbit:
Just thought i'd mention that half of gun deaths in this country are suicides. I bet the NRA wishes these people would just stick their heads in the oven and let the gas rip. That'd bring those gun death numbers down.
Yes, instead of getting killing machines out of the hands of mentally troubled teens (many of the suicide victims) let's wish they'd die another way.
post #72 of 116
Quote:
Jacob Singer:
Then please use your above statistics to explain Japan.
The ever-looming threat of Godzilla.
post #73 of 116
Some of the people in this thread seem to downright fetishize handguns.

Creepy.
post #74 of 116
Quote:
Poxy Von Sinister:
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Jacob Singer:
Then please use your above statistics to explain Japan.
The ever-looming threat of Godzilla.
Good one, Pox.
post #75 of 116
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Jacob Singer:
Then please use your above statistics to explain Japan.

And try to find "facts" that aren't thinly disguised NRA releases.
Well Jacob, if you would have bothered to OPEN the url's, you would see that these item come from NRA bastions as:

The UN
University of Georgia
US Justice Bureau of Statistics
etc..

All NRA fronts. I'm sure.
post #76 of 116
Quote:
Guttenberg Fan Club:
Quote:
Daywalker the killer white rabbit:
Just thought i'd mention that half of gun deaths in this country are suicides. I bet the NRA wishes these people would just stick their heads in the oven and let the gas rip. That'd bring those gun death numbers down.
Yes, instead of getting killing machines out of the hands of mentally troubled teens (many of the suicide victims) let's wish they'd die another way.
Would you be happier if they jumed out of windows.
post #77 of 116
Quote:
Anyawatcher:
Quote:
Guttenberg Fan Club:
Quote:
Daywalker the killer white rabbit:
Just thought i'd mention that half of gun deaths in this country are suicides. I bet the NRA wishes these people would just stick their heads in the oven and let the gas rip. That'd bring those gun death numbers down.
Yes, instead of getting killing machines out of the hands of mentally troubled teens (many of the suicide victims) let's wish they'd die another way.
Would you be happier if they jumed out of windows.
It's a lot easier to pull a trigger than to jump out of a window.

Besides, what if they live in a one story house?
post #78 of 116
Maybe I'm the onlt one who's not getting it, especially since I don't have time to read those reports, but...

What about Japan? What's the issue there?
post #79 of 116
Grifter, despite your attempt at sarcasm, I did indeed click on every link you supplied. Not one of them took an objective stance, each link you provided started with a pro-gun stance and then proceeds to substantiate it.

I could link to just as many anti-gun essays, from law-enforcement, civilian and political angles.

We need reliable numbers on handgun deaths and so-called prevented crimes, not inflated and dressed up op-ed pieces.

But thanks for playing. See, I can be sarcastic too.
post #80 of 116
Quote:
piranhapictures:
What about Japan? What's the issue there?
Japan: no guns, and probably one of the most murder-free industrialized nations on Earth.
post #81 of 116
The "jumping out of windows" was what Archie Bunker said to his daugter about gun control.
post #82 of 116
Quote:
Anyawatcher:
The "jumping out of windows" was what Archie Bunker said to his daugter about gun control.
That's like quoting Hitler in a Kabbalah discussion.
post #83 of 116
Quote:
Devin moves 4th dimensionally:
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Anyawatcher:
The "jumping out of windows" was what Archie Bunker said to his daugter about gun control.
That's like quoting Hitler in a Kabbalah discussion.
It was a joke dumb fuck. Get the stick out of your ass and realize that.
post #84 of 116
Quote:
Guttenberg Fan Club:
Quote:
Daywalker the killer white rabbit:
Just thought i'd mention that half of gun deaths in this country are suicides. I bet the NRA wishes these people would just stick their heads in the oven and let the gas rip. That'd bring those gun death numbers down.
Yes, instead of getting killing machines out of the hands of mentally troubled teens (many of the suicide victims) let's wish they'd die another way.
Interesting how you skewed it to think I wish they'd die another way when I mentioned as a joke what the NRA thinks of these people jumping up the gun death rates. I don't wish anyone would die. Leave your assumptions at the door sparky.
post #85 of 116
Quote:
Papa Trouter:
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Jacob Singer:
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piranhapictures:
What about Japan? What's the issue there?
Japan: no guns, and probably one of the most murder-free industrialized nations on Earth.
Japan: lots of guns, home to several Triads.
Japan: No guns in the *police* force.

They have murder statistics, if you actually look for them. Thier culture is a lot different then ours, they have higher mutilation rates then we do, but lower murder rates. (Samuri wannabe's and the like)
Culture explains a lot of this. Conformity is a national obsession, and even the non-conformists conform to a standard type of non-conformity.

Also, it is an island, with a history of not having guns (yes, only since 1945, but they were all taken away). The US has porous borders on both sides, and you can smuggle through anything you want. If you make guns illegal, the only people that won't have them are those who obey the law.

That being said, this will never pass.
post #86 of 116
I'm not into banning firearms or anything, but I do have a question:

All you gun-nuts out there, or even the casual enthusiast, why do you want a gun and why do you like them? What is the whole attraction of having something that can kill? Seriously, I never understood the American love for weapons. It reminds me of the pointless love for the Confederate flag. Is it a self-esteem thing?
post #87 of 116
It's a substitute penis for many, Boomstick. Makes 'em feel like a real man.

I have absolutely no problems with guns themselves, just the religious-like obsession some seem to have for them. Like I said earlier, it's like some weird sexual fetish for some people.
post #88 of 116
Just wanted to tick a few people off here and make mention that I will soon obtain my gun permit and will be picking up the Sig p229 handgun.

Of course the whole reasoning behind this is my desire to become active in federal law enforcement but I must admit once you start learning guns and firing them they are not as scary as one would think. Proper knowledge of the weapon and handling of course should be a prerequisite for a gun owner. In fact I was surprised at how non intimidating the handgun is once you begin to handle it and make use of it.

I would recommend everyone at least to fire a gun off at a proper shooting range that gives a proper instruction just to get an idea of what you are either for or against. Just for some perspective. Don't have to but I think it would be benefical.

And, I must admit, trap shooting is quite fun.
post #89 of 116
Quote:
Jacob Singer:
It's a substitute penis for many, Boomstick. Makes 'em feel like a real man.

I have absolutely no problems with guns themselves, just the religious-like obsession some seem to have for them. Like I said earlier, it's like some weird sexual fetish for some people.
I know, and I heartily agree. I just want to hear it from someone who's 'packin' heat.'

I enjoy violent movies, I can see the allure of target shooting,and I love playing paintball, but I don't ever have the slightest desire to get a gun. I just don't understand the love.

Plus I have a HUGE cock.
post #90 of 116
Quote:
CTDeLude:
Just wanted to tick a few people off here and make mention that I will soon obtain my gun permit and will be picking up the Sig p229 handgun.

Of course the whole reasoning behind this is my desire to become active in federal law enforcement but I must admit once you start learning guns and firing them they are not as scary as one would think. Proper knowledge of the weapon and handling of course should be a prerequisite for a gun owner. In fact I was surprised at how non intimidating the handgun is once you begin to handle it and make use of it.

I would recommend everyone at least to fire a gun off at a proper shooting range that gives a proper instruction just to get an idea of what you are either for or against. Just for some perspective. Don't have to but I think it would be benefical.

And, I must admit, trap shooting is quite fun.
That doesn't piss me off in the slightest. I just don't understand the lust-in-the-loins thing about owning something that was designed to fire bullets into living things. As far as you getting a permit, more power to you, and I hope you are successful in your quest to become a federal officer.
post #91 of 116
I admit I have no desire to readily kill anyone, or maim, or anything else really.

And luckily for me I have a girlfriend (that I am pretty sure I will marry unless I get killed by her wink ) that grew up around guns and is not fazed by them in any way.

Also going to the shooting range is a bit of a surreal experience (even here in California) but I don't really think anyone there is just waiting with baited breath to shoot anyone who tresspasses. I don't know. I don't believe the picture painted of gun owners is entirely accurate what-so-ever. Nor those of the NRA. But there are always those who will fit that descripition and get the most exposure.

As for children in the home...once your children reaches a certain age I believe that if you have a gun in the house they should be immediately taught the power of such a weapon and the respect must be paid to it. And that includes going to the shooting range. I don't believe a simple "Bad. Don't touch" will suffice. And nor would any other safety measure such as key guards and keeping ammo and gun separate (something you should do anyways). Now that idea probably scares some people. But know that it is harder to fire a gun (by a child) than it is to stab one self with the steak knife.
post #92 of 116
Also I admit there is a bit of coolness when loading a gun and sliding the chamber into place. The only thing is that you don't let that "coolness" overtake common sense and good judgement.
post #93 of 116
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Boomstick:
I'm not into banning firearms or anything, but I do have a question:

All you gun-nuts out there, or even the casual enthusiast, why do you want a gun and why do you like them? What is the whole attraction of having something that can kill? Seriously, I never understood the American love for weapons. It reminds me of the pointless love for the Confederate flag. Is it a self-esteem thing?
I assume I would meet your definition of "gun-nut", so here goes.

I have a concealed carry permit. I carry a pistol, (inside the waist band holster), everyday.

I'm a stock broker, and work / live in a nice area. One you would not expect to have any "problems".

My reasons for carrying?

1) because I can
2) many people rely on the police to "protect" them. This is woefully inefficient.
3) At any given time, something bad may happen to you, or around you, that you can help.

Those are the quick reasons. As most everyone knows, the police, amazing job that they do at deterring the "bad stuff", you usually only see them, AFTER something has happened. By nature, they must be reactive, not proactive. That's fine if you’re the 4th or 5th person some PCP freak goes after, they may be onto them.

No good if you’re the first.

Personally, I say a little prayer, every morning, that I will NEVER, under any circumstances, have to draw, or fire the weapon, for any reason.

However, if ever I need to, it will be there, and so will I.

Never, will I, my family, or any innocent around me come to any malicious harm, if there is any chance at that harm being prevented.

That's why this guy carries and I speak only for myself.
post #94 of 116
I don't carry, but I have been looking at getting a gun for quite a while. There are your stereotypical loons who have guns (like the guy at the shooting range who has a bin Laden target, doesn't hit it from 5 yards away, and then says "I can see why those boys can't get bin Laden. He was 5 yards away and I couldn't hit him!"), but I would say most of them are your average guy on the street, even if they are gun fanatics.

Shooting is a hobby a lot of people like, but not necessarily people or animals (but there are people like that). In addition, gun collectors are in some sense just like comics collectors or those that collect stamps, cards, or whatever. To each his own.
post #95 of 116
Just think about a few things here:

1) Guns are aggresive cues. If you were even contemplating violent action and a gun is in your sight it will increase your aggresion and violent thoughts. Several scientific studies have proven this.

2) You are ten times more likely to kill someone in your own family with a gun then to defend yourself from an intruder. Everyone is all worked up about someone breaking into their home when the odds are so fucking slim it is ridiculous. Even if someone does break into your house you will most likely shoot the wrong person on accident.

3) Guns kill people. 'Nuff fucking said.
post #96 of 116
Quote:
Sean Bateman, Master of Hyperbole:

3) Guns kill people. 'Nuff fucking said.
Thats very observant.
post #97 of 116
Yeah, if you are a drunk four year old special ed. student.
post #98 of 116
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Sean Bateman, Master of Hyperbole:
Just think about a few things here:

1) Guns are aggresive cues. If you were even contemplating violent action and a gun is in your sight it will increase your aggresion and violent thoughts. Several scientific studies have proven this.

2) You are ten times more likely to kill someone in your own family with a gun then to defend yourself from an intruder. Everyone is all worked up about someone breaking into their home when the odds are so fucking slim it is ridiculous. Even if someone does break into your house you will most likely shoot the wrong person on accident.

3) Guns kill people. 'Nuff fucking said.
If you hate firearms, and the very idea of firearms, there are a myriad of reasons to not own one, be around one, etc.....

And that's perfectly ok, Sean.

Firearms are like a hammer, or a car, or fire. If you treat them with respect, and have the proper knowledge about them, they are fine, and even fun to be around.

If you are violently opposed to all that they stand for, then, there will be no changing your mind my friend.

If you are uncomfortable around them, or the very thought of them, then DO NOT be around them. However, do not force those views on others, either. You are entitled to your opinion, that does not mean you need to force it on others.

Kind of like how I am with abortion. Against abortion? DON'T HAVE ONE!! Don't stand in front of me and scream and force your opinion on me. We can simply agree to disagree.
post #99 of 116
Quote:
Sean Bateman, Master of Hyperbole:
Just think about a few things here:

1) Guns are aggresive cues. If you were even contemplating violent action and a gun is in your sight it will increase your aggresion and violent thoughts. Several scientific studies have proven this.

2) You are ten times more likely to kill someone in your own family with a gun then to defend yourself from an intruder. Everyone is all worked up about someone breaking into their home when the odds are so fucking slim it is ridiculous. Even if someone does break into your house you will most likely shoot the wrong person on accident.

3) Guns kill people. 'Nuff fucking said.
1) How about throwing up a link?

2) This is true, but they count suicides in the "killing someone in your own home" factor, making it look like they are all accidental deaths. They're not.

3) Tired.
post #100 of 116
Quote:
Devin moves 4th dimensionally:
The statistic that says that a gun in the home is most likely to kill the owner makes me happy.
Me too. Even thogh the guy came out and said he got it wrong. Fuck off! I was ENJOYING being lied to, leave me the fuck alone!
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