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France helped Iraqis escape

post #1 of 43
Thread Starter 
By Bill Gertz
THE WASHINGTON TIMES

The French government secretly supplied fleeing Iraqi officials with passports in Syria that allowed them to escape to Europe, The Washington Times has learned. Top Stories

An unknown number of Iraqis who worked for Saddam Hussein's government were given passports by French officials in Syria, U.S. intelligence officials said.

The passports are regarded as documents of the European Union, because of France's membership in the union, and have helped the Iraqis avoid capture, said officials familiar with intelligence reports.

The French support, which was revealed through sensitive intelligence-gathering means, angered Pentagon, State Department and intelligence officials in Washington because it undermined the search for senior aides to Saddam, who fled Iraq in large numbers after the fall of Baghdad on April 9.

"It made it very difficult to track these people," one official said.

A second Bush administration official said, "It's like Raoul Wallenberg in reverse," a reference to the Swedish diplomat who supplied travel documents to help Jews escape Nazi Germany in World War II. "Now you have the French helping the bad guys escape from us."

Asked about the passports, Nathalie Loiseau, a spokeswoman for the French Embassy, said French authorities have not issued any visas to officials of the former Iraqi regime since the beginning of the war in Iraq, either in Syria or elsewhere.

"France formally denies this type of allegation, which is not only contrary to reality but is intended to discredit our nation," she said. "It is certainly time for rumors of this type — totally unfounded and a dishonor to those who spread them — to stop."

The French passports allow the wanted Iraqis to move freely among 12 EU countries that are part of the Schengen agreement on unrestricted travel. Britain, Denmark and Ireland are not part of the Schengen pact.

The intelligence on the French passports came after reports indicated that a French company covertly sold military spare parts to Iraq in the weeks before the war.

Other intelligence reports indicated that a French oil company was working with a Russian oil firm to conclude a deal with Saddam's government in the days before military action began March 19.

The French government also denied U.S. intelligence indicating that a Chinese chemical company used French and Syrian brokers to circumvent U.N. sanctions in providing Iraq with chemicals used in making missile fuel.

Regarding the French passports for fleeing Iraqis, Pentagon officials have expressed frustration that few of the most senior leaders identified on the list of top 55 officials of the Saddam regime have been captured.

The capture yesterday of an Iraqi biological weapons scientist, Huda Salih Mahdi Ammash, brings to 19 the number of senior Iraqi leaders who have been caught. One has been reported killed.

Only one of the captives is ranked in the top 10.

Secretary of State Colin L. Powell said Sunday that he did not know how many Iraqi officials had been given haven in Syria.

"Some have been made available to us," Mr. Powell said on CBS' "Face the Nation."

"Let me put it that way: Who we knew were there are no longer there," he said. "They've been made available to us, and they will be before the bar of justice of the Iraqi people."

Mr. Powell said other wanted Iraqis have been identified to the Syrian government "to see whether they can be located."

"But my sense from President Bashar al-Assad is that he has no interest in serving as a haven for any of these individuals," Mr. Powell said. "So I think if we can give him information and give him specific names and anything else we can say about these people, I think he would try to respond."

It could not be learned whether Mr. Powell and the Syrian president discussed Iraqis who might have transited through Syria to other nations.

Mr. Powell said Syria has been "helpful" in the past two years in dealing with the war on terrorism, primarily through U.S. and Syrian intelligence liaison.

The secretary also told Mr. Assad that "there may be people in Syria that we don't know about but you know about" who should be turned over to U.S. forces.

"This is the time for you to locate these individuals and turn them over to Iraqi justice and not allow Syria to become a haven for materials that might be coming out of Iraq still, or came out of Iraq or individuals who are trying to seek haven," he said.

Under pressure from the United States, Syria in the past several weeks expelled more than 30 Iraqis, many who came from Saddam's hometown of Tikrit.

After first granting sanctuary to former Iraqi intelligence official Farouk Hijazi, Syria turned him over to U.S. officials in Iraq.

Congress is considering legislation that would impose economic sanctions on Syria for its support of terrorism and to pressure it to withdraw its forces from Lebanon and stop building ballistic missiles.
post #2 of 43
I guess we were angry because these guys escaped before we could force them to take jobs working for us against other Middle Eastern countries.

Then, they wouldn't be "the bad guys" any more.
post #3 of 43
Fronac's gotta find his new Manni somehow.
post #4 of 43
The French were one of 3 countries with approved UN oil contracts with Iraq.

The French were one of 3 VERY vocal countries against us taking action in Iraq.

The French helped Iraqi's escape.

"No!!! Say it isn't so!! They are our friends, they would NOT do that!"
post #5 of 43
Quote:
Grifter:
The French were one of 3 countries with approved UN oil contracts with Iraq.

The French were one of 3 VERY vocal countries against us taking action in Iraq.

The French helped Iraqi's escape.

"No!!! Say it isn't so!! They are our friends, they would NOT do that!"
Well, once we started working WITH Iraqi terrorists - wanted criminals before the conflict, trusted allies working FOR us after the conflict, I'm pretty sure all bets were off and they didn't feel as if they were dipping below us on the moral superiority scale.
post #6 of 43
I still love how French oil interests are considered a smoking gun for their filthy garlic-stinking Saddam-love, while any attempt to tie US oil interests to the war is the imaginings of insane left-wing conspiracy nuts.

Add to this the fact that these "officials" making the claim remain anonymous, while the French have publically denied the allegations, and I'm a long way from being convinced.
post #7 of 43
Quote:
while any attempt to tie US oil interests to the war is the imaginings of insane left-wing conspiracy nuts.
How is that left wing conspiracy?

We came, we saw, we conquered, WE TOOK THEIR OIL.

That's not that hard.

Someday, when they have bigger guns, and more determination, they will take it back. Such is the circle of war.
post #8 of 43
I have a few questions: is everyone who ever worked in Saddam's regime subject to arrest? On what grounds are we allowed to arrest and incarcerate these people? Are they all war criminals? Are any of them civilians, or are they all considered military? Who is subject to arrest or detainment, and who is not?

I'm honestly curious.
post #9 of 43
Thread Starter 
I'm sure the Iraqi people are happy about all this.
post #10 of 43
Quote:
Jacob Singer:
I have a few questions: is everyone who ever worked in Saddam's regime subject to arrest? On what grounds are we allowed to arrest and incarcerate these people? Are they all war criminals? Are any of them civilians, or are they all considered military? Who is subject to arrest or detainment, and who is not?

I'm honestly curious.
Not really sure how they determine who is arrested, but I would imagine just the people at the top are really punished (arrested and detained). A lot of people joined the Ba'ath party to get ahead, just like with the Nazis and Communists. Those people who didn't do anything wrong but were just stuck in the party will probably be forgiven under a blanket amnesty. I would imagine those with military ties will be military POWs, and those without ties will be civilian prisoners, subject to whatever the new justice system in Iraq decides.
post #11 of 43
Thread Starter 
Search for Iraqis focuses on Europe
By Bill Gertz
THE WASHINGTON TIMES

U.S. intelligence agencies are intensifying the search in Europe for officials of Saddam Hussein's government who fled Iraq with the help of French passports, U.S. officials said yesterday.

The search efforts were strengthened after intelligence sources reported that France's government secretly provided fleeing Iraqi officials with European Union travel documents in Syria that allowed them to escape to other countries, said U.S. officials, speaking on the condition of anonymity.

The Washington Times first reported yesterday that U.S. intelligence officials said the French government provided an unknown number of Iraqis in Syria with passports that allowed them to travel to Western Europe in late March and early April.

Several U.S. officials, including Secretary of State Colin L. Powell, said yesterday that they could not confirm the report, but the matter would be further investigated. Mr. Powell told reporters, "It's one press report, and I have just started my day, and I have not looked into it. I don't know the source. I don't know if it's accurate or not." He said he had not talked to French officials and would look into the allegations.

Presidential spokesman Ari Fleischer said, "I think the French will have to explain what they did or did not do."

State Department spokesman Richard Boucher said he was not aware of the intelligence reports on which The Times story was based. He said the State Department accepts the French government denial that it provided passports to fleeing Iraqis.

"I think, first of all, the French government has spoken about this — I believe will speak again — and says it's not true," Mr. Boucher said. "We have nothing that would lead us to doubt that at this point. At this point, we're not able to corroborate the reports."

Other U.S. officials said the French passports had made it difficult to track down fleeing Iraqis because they had allowed Saddam's officials to travel freely in 12 EU countries.

Defense and intelligence officials said they have been frustrated by the failure to capture senior Iraqi leaders since the fall of Baghdad on April 9.

Officials said they do not know yet whether the failure to capture high-ranking Iraqis is linked to the issuance of the French passports.

The CIA and other U.S. intelligence agencies are increasing their focus on Western Europe as a location for former Iraqi regime officials who are now in hiding, the officials said.

So far, 19 Iraqis on a list of 55 most-wanted officials have been captured by coalition forces.

Only one of the captured officials is regarded as among the most-wanted 10.

The French Embassy in Washington denied the report again yesterday, calling the allegations of U.S. intelligence sources "totally false and scandalous."

Said spokeswoman Nathalie Loiseau: "There's no basis to it. There is not one Iraqi official in Europe thanks to France."
post #12 of 43
Quote:
Dan Whitehead:
I still love how French oil interests are considered a smoking gun for their filthy garlic-stinking Saddam-love, while any attempt to tie US oil interests to the war is the imaginings of insane left-wing conspiracy nuts.
Because one is true and the other is not?
post #13 of 43
Why do you keep posting the same story from the same paper from the same writer, when no progress has been made and no proof provided to sustain it?
post #14 of 43
Thread Starter 
Just to be fair I posted the followup column from today.
post #15 of 43
Quote:
Kronos vas in Munich Circus:
Because one is true and the other is not?
In light of the fact that we secured the oilfields foremost, left only the Oil Ministry building untouched from bombs, and are now doling out oil contracts to "friends of the Prez and VP" like Halliburton, whose "emergency contract" to douse the fires and maintain stability in the oil wells has now been revealed to have extensions for much more lucrative work as well.....

Do you REALLY think the American oil angle is fiction?
post #16 of 43
Paris Is Burning
post #17 of 43
In all seriousness, what annoys me about France has nothing to do with Iraq. It has to do with this project I'm currently working on at Coca-Cola, a joint venture between worldwide HQ here in Atlanta and the Euro offices in Paris. The French people on the project, almost to a person, are fuckstakes. Man, what a-holes!

Then again, there are many a-holes here, too... so perhaps it's a trait of the Big Coke moreso any personality deficiency on the basis of nationality.

In fact, I find this also relates to the current topic at hand since there are assholes on BOTH sides of the pond and it's the extremists that unfortunately seem to get the attention.

post #18 of 43
Quote:
mikah912:
Quote:
Kronos vas in Munich Circus:
Because one is true and the other is not?
In light of the fact that we secured the oilfields foremost, left only the Oil Ministry building untouched from bombs, and are now doling out oil contracts to "friends of the Prez and VP" like Halliburton, whose "emergency contract" to douse the fires and maintain stability in the oil wells has now been revealed to have extensions for much more lucrative work as well.....

Do you REALLY think the American oil angle is fiction?
But you know it's more complicated than that. The securing of the oilfields was out of experience...didn't want the Iraqis to set them ablaze again as they were wont to do prior. And if the Government hadn't at least begun talking about rebuilding contracts they would have been much worse than just invaders. Sure, it gives the appearance of that being the primary motive, and when the light is shone on only that aspect it could look that way.

Now, I've already gone on record as opposing the gift of any contract to Halliburton simply on political grounds. Whether improper or not it just looks improper.

And France was actually dealing oil with Iraq -and is owed- so there is already valuable consideration for them to house, shelter, and otherwise aid any and all Iraqi officials.

France is working on behalf of The Regime and not the Iraqi people. They were before we invaded, they seem to still be doing so now.
post #19 of 43
Quote:
Kronos vas in Munich Circus:
But you know it's more complicated than that. The securing of the oilfields was out of experience...didn't want the Iraqis to set them ablaze again as they were wont to do prior. And if the Government hadn't at least begun talking about rebuilding contracts they would have been much worse than just invaders. Sure, it gives the appearance of that being the primary motive, and when the light is shone on only that aspect it could look that way.

Now, I've already gone on record as opposing the gift of any contract to Halliburton simply on political grounds. Whether improper or not it just looks improper.

And France was actually dealing oil with Iraq -and is owed- so there is already valuable consideration for them to house, shelter, and otherwise aid any and all Iraqi officials.

France is working on behalf of The Regime and not the Iraqi people. They were before we invaded, they seem to still be doing so now.
Oh, make no mistake...I'm in no way condoning France's oil interests. But ours are just as self-serving and thinly-veiled. Now, the US is working on the behalf of the US, not the Iraqi people, and that's always been the case as well.

The securing of oilfields in and of itself is fine, but to make that a priority and then WILLINGLY IGNORE the civil authority needs of Iraqis by allowing looting that resulted in murder and rampant destruction in the name of "freedom"......that's when our true nature shows itself.

We claim not to be policemen and unable to help them keep hospitals safe and such, but we can sure move Heaven and Earth to help them to "their" oil wealth?

It's complicated, alright. But in no way that makes us look any less dishonest and selfish than we already do.
post #20 of 43
I think it's a matter of perception. We get seen by some as wholly aiming toward securing the fields. And admittedly it's a priority thing. If we went around trying to put out every looting fire there might have been bigger oilfield fires which would tie up even more resources down the line. It's a judgment call that you think of the long-term big picture things, which are infrastructure and commerce. That was in the plan. Looting was probably not foreseen in the plan therefore not a huge priority. And it seems to have calmed down to a contollable level at this point. If the fields were ablaze they'd still be going hugely strong today.
post #21 of 43
Quote:
Kronos vas in Munich Circus:
It's a judgment call that you think of the long-term big picture things, which are infrastructure and commerce. That was in the plan. Looting was probably not foreseen in the plan therefore not a huge priority.
There's the problem. Our plans betray our desires, and clearly we planned against every contingency that would endanger the oil, but very few contingencies that would endanger the Iraqi people.

So yet again, we erode any chance for moral superiority by co-opting the transgressions of those who we criticize. They're "supposedly" helping shelter Iraqi criminals. We DEFINITELY are not only sheltering them, but putting them to work. They threaten vetos to clog up the UN process, so do we.

France is no saint, but I am angered that we seem unable to rise above their moral ineptitude to provide a better example.
post #22 of 43
France may want Iraqi oil, but they didn't make up reasons to invade Iraq to get it. America has no place pointing fingers here.

The oilfields and oil administration buildings remained unscathed while hospitals were looted. Anyone who can't see that for what it is is fooling himself.

post #23 of 43
Thread Starter 
Intelligence team finds French passports in Iraq

By Bill Gertz
THE WASHINGTON TIMES

A U.S. military intelligence team in Iraq has uncovered a dozen French passports, and defense officials believe other French passports from the same batch were used by Iraqis to flee the country.
Defense officials are still investigating whether the passports were provided covertly by the French government, or were stolen or forged by Saddam Hussein's regime, said defense officials who spoke on the condition of anonymity.
France's government has denied that it provided any passports to fleeing Iraqi officials and called news reports of French collaboration with Saddam's regime U.S. "disinformation."
Disclosure of the passports comes as Secretary of State Colin L. Powell is in Paris attempting to repair Washington's strained ties with France over its opposition to U.S. military action in Iraq.
Mr. Powell said yesterday that ties between the two allies are "excellent" but that differences over Iraq remain. "We're not going to paper over it and pretend it didn't occur," he said. "It did occur. But we're going to work through that."
Mr. Powell told France's TF1 television that the Bush administration is disappointed with French opposition to the war in Iraq. He said Washington is reviewing its relations with France to see whether changes are needed.
Meanwhile, the Department of Homeland Security this week concluded an intelligence investigation that said that reports of France's role in providing passports to former Iraqi officials could not be confirmed.
According to the defense officials, the French passports found in Iraq were obtained by U.S. military teams in the country within the past several weeks.
The teams are searching for weapons of mass destruction and gathering intelligence on Iraq's arms programs.
"There were about a dozen French passports recovered that we know of," one defense official said. No other details were provided.
The official said the passports themselves do not mean that France provided the documents and that the passports may have been looted from the French Embassy.
"And if embassies are looted, blank passports would be a great commodity in the right hands," the official said. "The French had a lot of business interests in Iraq through the [U.N.] oil-for-food program."
According to numerous U.S. press accounts from Iraq, however, the French Embassy in Baghdad was not looted.
The French Embassy was protected by armed guards and barbed wire in the days after the fall of Baghdad to coalition forces.
A French cultural center in Baghdad was sacked by looters, but officials said it is unlikely that the center had blank passports.
Embassies normally have spare passports for their nationals in case passports are lost or stolen.
France would have had blank passports in its embassy for any French nationals who might have been doing business with Saddam's government under the U.N. oil-for-food program.
A second defense official said he believes that the French passports found in Iraq were part of a batch used by some former Iraqi officials to flee the country to avoid being captured by coalition forces.
The Washington Times first reported on May 6 that U.S. intelligence agencies had uncovered information that the French government provided Iraqi officials from Saddam's government with passports that allowed them to escape the country.
U.S. intelligence officials were upset by the passport assistance because the French documents gave the fleeing Iraqis free travel within 12 European Union countries, making it harder to find and capture the officials.
Coalition forces in Iraq have captured about half of the 55 Iraqi officials listed as the most-wanted members of Saddam's regime.
The failure to capture most of the high-ranking officials has been a source of frustration, defense officials said.
Reports of France providing passports to Iraqis led to an investigation of the matter by the Department of Homeland Security.
The probe was requested two weeks ago by Rep. F. James Sensenbrenner Jr., Wisconsin Republican and chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, based on the report in The Times, which quoted U.S. intelligence officials.
Raj Bharwani, a spokesman for Mr. Sensenbrenner, said in an interview that the Judiciary Committee was notified Tuesday by the Homeland Security Department that there was "no indication that France supplied passports to Iraqis" fleeing from coalition forces.
A Homeland Security official, speaking on the condition of anonymity, said the investigation involved checking with "our intelligence sources" about the matter.
"All of our sources indicated that the allegations were incorrect," the official said.
Asked whether the department knew about the French passports found in Iraq, the official referred questions to the CIA.
A CIA spokesman had no comment. But a U.S. official said, "We don't have any information on that."
The official suggested that if the Iraqis had French passports, the documents may have been forged. "The Iraqis are adept at forging passports," the official said.
Defense officials said the CIA had no report about the French passports and was instrumental in the Homeland Security Department probe coming up empty.
A State Department official said the French provision of passports to the Iraqis was like "Raoul Wallenberg in reverse" — a reference to the Swedish diplomat who helped Jews escape Nazi Germany during World War II.
In Iraq, "the French were helping the bad guys escape," the official said.
French government officials have denied that they in any way assisted fleeing Iraqis.
France's government strongly opposed U.S. military action in Iraq. French President Jacques Chirac stated two days before the start of the war that Saddam was not a threat that warranted military action.
Other intelligence reports in recent months showed covert French collaboration with Saddam's government.
A defense intelligence report in early March showed that French oil companies were working with Russian oil firms to conclude deals with Saddam's regime that both companies hoped would be honored by any successor government.
Iraq also succeeded in obtaining spare parts for its Mirage jets and Gazelle helicopters in January from a French company working through a firm in the United Arab Emirates.
A French broker also helped a Chinese chemical manufacturer ship a chemical used in making solid missile fuel to Iraq, according to intelligence officials.
post #24 of 43
Seeing as, where France is concerned, it seems to be accepted practice to dredge up WW2, can anyone explain how France allegedly helping Iraqi officials escape is any different to the US smuggling Nazi scientists (many of whom were war criminals) over the Atlantic to help build American weapons and space programmes?
post #25 of 43
Thread Starter 
No different I imagine. Considering Great Britain and Russia did it as well guess we're all evil.
post #26 of 43
Dan, I think both actions you mention are suspect, but surely France's only reason to aid the Iraqi officials is to cover their own dirty dealings. France can't be expected to make good foreign affairs decisions. Putting themselves at odds with the U.S. and Britain will only hurt them in the long run.

The U.S. smuggled Nazi scientists out of Europe during WWII to prevent the Germans from developing missile technology before the Allies. I think that worked out well, despite the moral implications of helping war criminals. WWII, in my opinion, is one of the only wars in history with very little grey area. We had clearly defined enemies who needed to be stopped at all costs.

Saddam Hussein has always been a convenient enemy in my mind. His actions, though deplorable, really didn't add up to a plan for world domination. Hussein was(is?) no Hitler. My greatest fear is that our Middle East sweep won't end with Iraq. Protracted conflicts in the Middle East will create larger enemies for which we may not be prepared.
post #27 of 43
Quote:
Sir Daywalker the brave:
Intelligence team finds French passports in Iraq

By Bill Gertz
THE WASHINGTON TIMES

A U.S. military intelligence team in Iraq has uncovered a dozen French passports, and defense officials believe other French passports from the same batch were used by Iraqis to flee the country.
Defense officials are still investigating whether the passports were provided covertly by the French government, or were stolen or forged by Saddam Hussein's regime, said defense officials who spoke on the condition of anonymity.
France's government has denied that it provided any passports to fleeing Iraqi officials and called news reports of French collaboration with Saddam's regime U.S. "disinformation."
Disclosure of the passports comes as Secretary of State Colin L. Powell is in Paris attempting to repair Washington's strained ties with France over its opposition to U.S. military action in Iraq.
Mr. Powell said yesterday that ties between the two allies are "excellent" but that differences over Iraq remain. "We're not going to paper over it and pretend it didn't occur," he said. "It did occur. But we're going to work through that."
Mr. Powell told France's TF1 television that the Bush administration is disappointed with French opposition to the war in Iraq. He said Washington is reviewing its relations with France to see whether changes are needed.
Meanwhile, the Department of Homeland Security this week concluded an intelligence investigation that said that reports of France's role in providing passports to former Iraqi officials could not be confirmed.
According to the defense officials, the French passports found in Iraq were obtained by U.S. military teams in the country within the past several weeks.
The teams are searching for weapons of mass destruction and gathering intelligence on Iraq's arms programs.
"There were about a dozen French passports recovered that we know of," one defense official said. No other details were provided.
The official said the passports themselves do not mean that France provided the documents and that the passports may have been looted from the French Embassy.
"And if embassies are looted, blank passports would be a great commodity in the right hands," the official said. "The French had a lot of business interests in Iraq through the [U.N.] oil-for-food program."
According to numerous U.S. press accounts from Iraq, however, the French Embassy in Baghdad was not looted.
The French Embassy was protected by armed guards and barbed wire in the days after the fall of Baghdad to coalition forces.
A French cultural center in Baghdad was sacked by looters, but officials said it is unlikely that the center had blank passports.
Embassies normally have spare passports for their nationals in case passports are lost or stolen.
France would have had blank passports in its embassy for any French nationals who might have been doing business with Saddam's government under the U.N. oil-for-food program.
A second defense official said he believes that the French passports found in Iraq were part of a batch used by some former Iraqi officials to flee the country to avoid being captured by coalition forces.
The Washington Times first reported on May 6 that U.S. intelligence agencies had uncovered information that the French government provided Iraqi officials from Saddam's government with passports that allowed them to escape the country.
U.S. intelligence officials were upset by the passport assistance because the French documents gave the fleeing Iraqis free travel within 12 European Union countries, making it harder to find and capture the officials.
Coalition forces in Iraq have captured about half of the 55 Iraqi officials listed as the most-wanted members of Saddam's regime.
The failure to capture most of the high-ranking officials has been a source of frustration, defense officials said.
Reports of France providing passports to Iraqis led to an investigation of the matter by the Department of Homeland Security.
The probe was requested two weeks ago by Rep. F. James Sensenbrenner Jr., Wisconsin Republican and chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, based on the report in The Times, which quoted U.S. intelligence officials.
Raj Bharwani, a spokesman for Mr. Sensenbrenner, said in an interview that the Judiciary Committee was notified Tuesday by the Homeland Security Department that there was "no indication that France supplied passports to Iraqis" fleeing from coalition forces.
A Homeland Security official, speaking on the condition of anonymity, said the investigation involved checking with "our intelligence sources" about the matter.
"All of our sources indicated that the allegations were incorrect," the official said.
Asked whether the department knew about the French passports found in Iraq, the official referred questions to the CIA.
A CIA spokesman had no comment. But a U.S. official said, "We don't have any information on that."
The official suggested that if the Iraqis had French passports, the documents may have been forged. "The Iraqis are adept at forging passports," the official said.
Defense officials said the CIA had no report about the French passports and was instrumental in the Homeland Security Department probe coming up empty.
A State Department official said the French provision of passports to the Iraqis was like "Raoul Wallenberg in reverse" — a reference to the Swedish diplomat who helped Jews escape Nazi Germany during World War II.
In Iraq, "the French were helping the bad guys escape," the official said.
French government officials have denied that they in any way assisted fleeing Iraqis.
France's government strongly opposed U.S. military action in Iraq. French President Jacques Chirac stated two days before the start of the war that Saddam was not a threat that warranted military action.
Other intelligence reports in recent months showed covert French collaboration with Saddam's government.
A defense intelligence report in early March showed that French oil companies were working with Russian oil firms to conclude deals with Saddam's regime that both companies hoped would be honored by any successor government.
Iraq also succeeded in obtaining spare parts for its Mirage jets and Gazelle helicopters in January from a French company working through a firm in the United Arab Emirates.
A French broker also helped a Chinese chemical manufacturer ship a chemical used in making solid missile fuel to Iraq, according to intelligence officials.
This could be just another lie from the US government. They lied about Al Qaida in Iraq, the chemical weapons (probably I say) and many other things.

post #28 of 43
Does no one find it odd that but ONE journalist in a right-wing, Moonie-owned paper is covering this?
post #29 of 43
It reeks of the old "throw enough mud" mentality. The actual content of the articles is just stale air - French officials might have helped some Iraqis escape but there's no actual proof of who or how or even if this happened.

But the cumulative effect is what counts. It's the headline, the succession of stories raising the same suspicions until - eventually - enough people "remember reading something about France helping the Iraqis" and it becomes one of those vague, unproven "facts" that people just accept as "probably true".

You don't need proof of anything these days, you just need to be able to stir up enough suspicion so you can call "no smoke without a fire".
post #30 of 43
ABout half this thread is the same info reposted, whether in an article or someone quoting that article.
Can we trim our quotes, please? We're all intelligent and can figure out what's being referenced, and don't need the same facts repeated from article to article...please just post the new bits, with a link back to the whole article?
post #31 of 43
Also, if you've only got a two line response, don't quote the entire article just to tack it on the end.
post #32 of 43
Quote:
Originally posted by There is no Coyote, only spoons.:
We're all intelligent
Not me, man. I've just got good old horse sense, among other parts.
post #33 of 43
Quote:
billz3bub, Enthusiasm Enthusiast:


The U.S. smuggled Nazi scientists out of Europe during WWII to prevent the Germans from developing missile technology before the Allies.
Actually, the US smuggled Nazi scientists because they were the best in the world as far as military technology was concerned. It had nothing to do with the actual war and its potential outcome.
post #34 of 43
Quote:
there is no mastronikolas:
Quote:
billz3bub, Enthusiasm Enthusiast:


The U.S. smuggled Nazi scientists out of Europe during WWII to prevent the Germans from developing missile technology before the Allies.
Actually, the US smuggled Nazi scientists because they were the best in the world as far as military technology was concerned. It had nothing to do with the actual war and its potential outcome.
Which in effect prevented the Germans from developing missile technology before the Allies. The Nazis were well on their way to producing missile based weapons.
post #35 of 43
The Nazi scientists were not abducted during WWII, neither were they "good guy Nazis" trying to escape Germany.

The US smuggled them after the war ended.
post #36 of 43
What do you mean "well on their way"? The Germans bombed England with V2 rockets, didn't they? America wanted the brains that came up with the V2 so America could blow things up from a distance too. Those brains are where the Saturn V boosters came from as well, as it happens. They're essentially really really advanced German rocket bombs with space capsules on top.

If the Allies did try to do something to prevent Germany from getting missile based technology first in WWII, they must've failed.
post #37 of 43
My point was that we didn't let the Nazis gain the upper hand with rocket technology. My statement of the timing of capturing the scientists may be incorrect. I understand that their larger body of work began after WWII. We can all agree that Germany deserved to lose the war, right?
post #38 of 43
Of course.

I'd argue over who had the upper hand when it came to rocketry during WWII, though. But judge for yourself:<a href="http://spaceline.org/history/4.html" target="_blank">Germany</a> vs. <a href="http://spaceline.org/history/5.html" target="_blank">everyone else.</a>
post #39 of 43
Quote:
billz3bub, Enthusiasm Enthusiast:
My point was that we didn't let the Nazis gain the upper hand with rocket technology. My statement of the timing of capturing the scientists may be incorrect. I understand that their larger body of work began after WWII. We can all agree that Germany deserved to lose the war, right?
Actually, the US and allies smuggled out the German scientists during the later parts of the war and the end of the war to A) prevent the Russians from getting them, and B) aid us in developing our own rocket technology (which was far, far behind the Germans at this point). The grabbing of the scientists had nothing to do with preventing the Germans from developing better rockets at war's end.
post #40 of 43
So, with that in mind and to get things back on topic, how is it wrong for France to (allegedly) help some (unidentified) Iraqis to leave the country? If the US (and the UK, Russia etc) were happy to turn a blind eye to some of the worst war crimes in history in order to build a better rocket, why the kneejerk reaction to the alleged actions of France?
post #41 of 43
Quote:
billz3bub, Enthusiasm Enthusiast:
My point was that we didn't let the Nazis gain the upper hand with rocket technology. My statement of the timing of capturing the scientists may be incorrect. I understand that their larger body of work began after WWII. We can all agree that Germany deserved to lose the war, right?
Given that your point is that capturing these scientists was OK as it prevented Germany from gaining the upper hand in missile technology I would say that the timing of the capture was pretty critical.
Given that it happened AFTER the war, how did capturing them prevent the Nazi's from getting ahead in missile technology?
post #42 of 43
Quote:
Dan Whitehead:
So, with that in mind and to get things back on topic, how is it wrong for France to (allegedly) help some (unidentified) Iraqis to leave the country? If the US (and the UK, Russia etc) were happy to turn a blind eye to some of the worst war crimes in history in order to build a better rocket, why the kneejerk reaction to the alleged actions of France?
I don't think the alleged actions of France can be criticised if compared to the sheltering of Nazis after WWII. However given that people on these boards have defended the CIA's drug dealing activities I guess that anything is possible.
post #43 of 43
Quote:
Dan Whitehead:
It reeks of the old "throw enough mud" mentality. The actual content of the articles is just stale air - French officials might have helped some Iraqis escape but there's no actual proof of who or how or even if this happened.

But the cumulative effect is what counts. It's the headline, the succession of stories raising the same suspicions until - eventually - enough people "remember reading something about France helping the Iraqis" and it becomes one of those vague, unproven "facts" that people just accept as "probably true".

You don't need proof of anything these days, you just need to be able to stir up enough suspicion so you can call "no smoke without a fire".
Dan is totally right in this regard. If you repeat something enough, wether true or not, wether substantiated with any actual evidence to prove the claims, people will begin to believe it.
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