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This IS a joke, right?

post #1 of 87
5/9/03 at 10:09am
Thread Starter 
Families of 11 dead illegals to sue U.S.
By Steve Miller
THE WASHINGTON TIMES

The families of 11 immigrants who died illegally crossing into Arizona from Mexico have filed a $41 million claim against two federal agencies, saying the government's refusal to put water out in the desert contributed to the migrants' deaths.
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post #2 of 87
5/9/03 at 10:27am
Quote:
<strong>to put water out in the desert.
As if we needed more proof that people CAN be dumber than rocks.

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post #3 of 87
5/9/03 at 11:22am
No, Carl, the proof is in the fact that people will read one sentence that Grifter posts and make a judgement when you know that he is not presenting the whole story.

"The lawsuit contends that the immigrants' deaths could have been prevented if a humanitarian group had been allowed to install water stations in the desert. A month before the 14 crossers died, the group Humane Borders requested permission to put water stations in the "exact area" where the men died in the Cabeza Prieta National Wildlife Refuge east of Yuma, according to the lawsuit. That request was denied.
The suit also said that the federal government's crackdown on illegal immigration in urban areas along the U.S.-Mexican border forced immigrants to risk crossing the desert in remote, dangerous areas."

<a href="http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/local/5_9_03border.html" target="_blank">http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/local/5_9_03border.html</a>

Still not a lawsuit they can hope to win, but not as silly as this asshole made it seem.
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post #4 of 87
5/9/03 at 11:45am
There's quite a bit of weirdness going on with the illegal aliens in Arizona right now, and specifically with the coyote runners who seem to be declaring war on each other all of a sudden. That is a nasty piece of desert out there, though and I certainly wouldn't wish my worst enemy stuck there. The area surrounding Yuma is a wasteland, and it's pretty consistently the hottest part of Arizona for the duration of the summer. Once or twice a summer they'll either find corpses or people on death's door who have been left by the coyote runners in the middle of the desert because they pre-paid for their crossing and the runners no longer need them.
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post #5 of 87
5/9/03 at 11:46am
Yes, that indeed does shed more light on the issue. Thanks, Devin.

However, I still can't get past the simplicity of expecting water in the desert. But I suppose that could be more a result of the way the story was written than the topic itself. Also, I have walked the desert in that very area (the Imperial Sand Dunes near Yuma and across the CA/Mexico border). There is actually a water canal less than 2 miles in that runs the entire parallel to the border for over 80 miles.

Also, though there indeed might be sinister reasons behind why the request for the water stations were denied it can also be noted that this area is under the control of the BLM and they are notoriously protective of any environmental stuff.
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post #6 of 87
5/9/03 at 12:04pm
If you provide water stations (or let someone else provide them), it could encourage more people to cross there, and that's the last thing the US would want to do. It is stupid to expect we're going to roll out the red carpet (or water bucket) or someone trying to illegally enter the country. I have an idea - emigrate legally!
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post #7 of 87
5/9/03 at 1:06pm
Sorro nails it -- the only possible use for those water stations would be to aid those seeking to cross the border illegally.
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post #8 of 87
5/9/03 at 1:28pm
Quote:
Called Poxy in the Munich Circus:
Sorro nails it -- the only possible use for those water stations would be to aid those seeking to cross the border illegally.
This is arguable the same way that passing out condoms to kids or needles to addicts is.

Is it to aid in iniquity or is to show mercy and compassion to in a small way to someone who needs it and will do whatever they're going to do whether you help them or not?
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post #9 of 87
5/9/03 at 1:31pm
Quote:
Devin moves 4th dimensionally:
"The lawsuit contends that the immigrants' deaths could have been prevented if a humanitarian group had been allowed to install water stations in the desert. A month before the 14 crossers died, the group Humane Borders requested permission to put water stations in the "exact area" where the men died in the Cabeza Prieta National Wildlife Refuge east of Yuma, according to the lawsuit. That request was denied.
The deaths also could have been prevented by not trying to enter the country illegally. It should be fairly obvious that Humane Borders wanted to put in those water stations to help illegal immigrants; the government is not in the business of aiding and abbetting criminals. Well, ok, that's a lie, but still...

Quote:
The suit also said that the federal government's crackdown on illegal immigration in urban areas along the U.S.-Mexican border forced immigrants to risk crossing the desert in remote, dangerous areas."
They were forced to do nothing. They choose to attempt a border crossing, they choose the location, etc. Sad, yes, but also their fault.
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post #10 of 87
5/9/03 at 1:32pm
By your logic the government should not care about these coyote trackers leaving people to die. Of course, the government doesn't care, but that's another story.

People are going to try to get into this country no matter what. The question is whether there should be a death penalty for attempting it.
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post #11 of 87
5/9/03 at 1:47pm
Quote:
mikah912:
Quote:
Called Poxy in the Munich Circus:
Sorro nails it -- the only possible use for those water stations would be to aid those seeking to cross the border illegally.
This is arguable the same way that passing out condoms to kids or needles to addicts is.

Is it to aid in iniquity or is to show mercy and compassion to in a small way to someone who needs it and will do whatever they're going to do whether you help them or not?
An excellent point that I'm too hung-over to contemplate right now.
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post #12 of 87
5/9/03 at 1:49pm
Quote:
Devin is the Faux Elite:
By your logic the government should not care about these coyote trackers leaving people to die. Of course, the government doesn't care, but that's another story.

People are going to try to get into this country no matter what. The question is whether there should be a death penalty for attempting it.
But we're not doing the killing. It's like saying we should put safety nets under every bridge because someone might try to commit suicide. We can't attempt to prevent every single bad thing that might happen to someone.

I'm curious how Kronos feels about this, seeing as how he's a big proponent of watching our borders first.
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post #13 of 87
5/9/03 at 1:57pm
The point, if you had read the second article, is that a humanitarian group wanted to put water there and were denied. This isn't a random thing - it could have been avoided.

I don't think they can - or really should - win the lawsuit, but the attitude evinced here towards these people shows why they die in the desert. How dare they try to get to America!
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post #14 of 87
5/9/03 at 2:10pm
They should have just headed about 40 miles West to Buttercup Valley. Then they would likely have run into a band of STAR WARS geeks looking for remnants of Jabba's Sail Barge. And we all know that geeks come equipped with a full assortment of snacks and liquid refreshments.
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post #15 of 87
5/9/03 at 2:25pm
But if there is one thing CHUD has taught me, it's that geeks are horrifyingly conservative.
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post #16 of 87
5/9/03 at 2:54pm
Thread Starter 
Well Devin, this asshole (your words) says that your quote SHOULD have read:

Quote:
I don't think they can - or really should - win the lawsuit, but the attitude evinced here towards these people shows why they die in the desert. How dare they try to get to America!
"ILLEGALLY"

But, that's juse one assholes opinion.

It seems the people that go through the proper channels, and do the whole legal thing, rarely die in the desert while trying to get into the country.
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post #17 of 87
5/9/03 at 3:01pm
That's a stellar idea. All the dirt poor Mexicans who can't read or write or speak English and who are trying to get into America to do horrible manual labor for under minimum wage should hire the lawyers needed to come to this country legally.
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post #18 of 87
5/9/03 at 3:04pm
Considering the number of farm workers in the Yuma area who are bused over the border on a daily basis to do a horrible job for little pay, it does surprise me that people are still taking this route to try and make it across. It seems like it would be an awful lot easier to wait for one of the agriculture buses to show up and just get on.
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post #19 of 87
5/9/03 at 3:14pm
Quote:
Grifter:
Well Devin, this asshole (your words) says that your quote SHOULD have read:

Quote:
I don't think they can - or really should - win the lawsuit, but the attitude evinced here towards these people shows why they die in the desert. How dare they try to get to America!
"ILLEGALLY"

But, that's juse one assholes opinion.

It seems the people that go through the proper channels, and do the whole legal thing, rarely die in the desert while trying to get into the country.
How desperate must a person be to risk their life to get into a country? Is it illegal to sneak across the border? Sure. But these people aren't murderers or rapists - they're desperate people doing a desperate thing. Saying "Hey, they're criminals" seems like a pretty cold way of reacting to their deaths.

Seems to me that putting water out there would a) save lives and b) make it a lot easier to know where these people will be crossing - thus making it easier to patrol those areas. These people may not have a legal right to enter the country, but that doesn't make it right to sit back and let them die in the attempt.
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post #20 of 87
5/9/03 at 3:22pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Devin is the Faux Elite:
That's a stellar idea. All the dirt poor Mexicans who can't read or write or speak English and who are trying to get into America to do horrible manual labor for under minimum wage should hire the lawyers needed to come to this country legally.
Yup.

Tell you what, next time 5000 New Yorkers climb into a shoe box tied to an innertube and try and float to Cuba, I'll make sure they have a raft every 20 feet so they don't get so tired rowing.

Oh, wait, THAT doesn't happen, does it?
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post #21 of 87
5/9/03 at 3:24pm
While I find it sad and unfortunate these people feel it's worth risking their lives to enter this country illegaly, I don't think it's the government's responsibility to ease their illegal activity by providing water stations. This only would encourage more risk-taking, and possibly even more deaths of people who are ill-prepared or misinformed.
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post #22 of 87
5/9/03 at 3:24pm
I agree with what Montoya says in the article:

Quote:
But Montoya a Phoenix civil rights attorney, said the lawyers for the plaintiffs are undermining, not advancing, the cause of civil rights.
"This is a silly, poorly conceived lawsuit," Montoya said.
"I am a U.S. citizen. If I go hiking in the Arizona desert and die of thirst, can I sue the federal government because I didn't plan right and had a bad hike?" he asked.
"What happened was a tragedy, and those families have my condolences. I praise the people who provide humanitarian aid," Montoya added. "But to sue when they don't get the assistance they desire - I think that gives lawyers a bad name, and it gives undocumented immigrants a bad name."
It is a tragedy that these people lost their lives and this lawsuit will in all likliehood fail. However it would be nice if we could have let the Humane Borders folks put the water out there.

Yes it would "aid" illegal immigrants (who I believe by and large work harder for less money than any of us ever would), but do any of you really want some sort of "death zone" so that nobody can get in? Why don't you lobby to have landmines put out so that anyone trying to get in gets blown to Hell? I know that's not the country I would want to live in.

Personally I think it would say something great about our country if we let people who were willing to risk death and spent all of there meager savings to do so come into this country. Make them citizens. Lord knows they would probably be more productive and eager to do well than a lot of us.
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post #23 of 87
5/9/03 at 3:26pm
Quote:
Grifter:
Quote:
Devin is the Faux Elite:
That's a stellar idea. All the dirt poor Mexicans who can't read or write or speak English and who are trying to get into America to do horrible manual labor for under minimum wage should hire the lawyers needed to come to this country legally.
Yup.

Tell you what, next time 5000 New Yorkers climb into a shoe box tied to an innertube and try and float to Cuba, I'll make sure they have a raft every 20 feet so they don't get so tired rowing.

Oh, wait, THAT doesn't happen, does it?
Were you raised on a diet of paint chips and Hitler speeches?
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post #24 of 87
5/9/03 at 3:27pm
And Jacob correct me if I misunderstood but the gov't wouldn't have been providing the water they are being sued for blocking it.
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post #25 of 87
5/9/03 at 3:28pm
Quote:
Grifter:
Yup.

Tell you what, next time 5000 New Yorkers climb into a shoe box tied to an innertube and try and float to Cuba, I'll make sure they have a raft every 20 feet so they don't get so tired rowing.

Oh, wait, THAT doesn't happen, does it?
Grifter you better wipe that foam off your lip. It's making you look silly.
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post #26 of 87
5/9/03 at 3:29pm
Quote:
Called Poxy in the Munich Circus:
Quote:
Devin is the Faux Elite:
By your logic the government should not care about these coyote trackers leaving people to die. Of course, the government doesn't care, but that's another story.

People are going to try to get into this country no matter what. The question is whether there should be a death penalty for attempting it.
But we're not doing the killing. It's like saying we should put safety nets under every bridge because someone might try to commit suicide. We can't attempt to prevent every single bad thing that might happen to someone.

I'm curious how Kronos feels about this, seeing as how he's a big proponent of watching our borders first.
More and more disinterested in either side of most "debates", that's how.
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post #27 of 87
5/9/03 at 3:29pm
Quote:
thomas.galvin:
The deaths also could have been prevented by not trying to enter the country illegally. It should be fairly obvious that Humane Borders wanted to put in those water stations to help illegal immigrants; the government is not in the business of aiding and abbetting criminals. Well, ok, that's a lie, but still...

They were forced to do nothing. They choose to attempt a border crossing, they choose the location, etc. Sad, yes, but also their fault.
Where's the grace brother?
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post #28 of 87
5/9/03 at 3:31pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Devin is the Faux Elite:
Quote:
Grifter:
Quote:
Devin is the Faux Elite:
That's a stellar idea. All the dirt poor Mexicans who can't read or write or speak English and who are trying to get into America to do horrible manual labor for under minimum wage should hire the lawyers needed to come to this country legally.
Yup.

Tell you what, next time 5000 New Yorkers climb into a shoe box tied to an innertube and try and float to Cuba, I'll make sure they have a raft every 20 feet so they don't get so tired rowing.

Oh, wait, THAT doesn't happen, does it?
Were you raised on a diet of paint chips and Hitler speeches?
No, I was raised on a diet of working for what I've got, and not expecting ANYONE to just HAND ME anything that was not earned through hard work.
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post #29 of 87
5/9/03 at 3:33pm
Quote:
Grifter:
No, I was raised on a diet of working for what I've got, and not expecting ANYONE to just HAND ME anything that was not earned through hard work.
I'd say those Mexicans earned a glass of water at LEAST.
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post #30 of 87
5/9/03 at 3:35pm
Quote:
Grifter:
Quote:
Devin is the Faux Elite:
Quote:
Grifter:
Quote:
Devin is the Faux Elite:
That's a stellar idea. All the dirt poor Mexicans who can't read or write or speak English and who are trying to get into America to do horrible manual labor for under minimum wage should hire the lawyers needed to come to this country legally.
Yup.

Tell you what, next time 5000 New Yorkers climb into a shoe box tied to an innertube and try and float to Cuba, I'll make sure they have a raft every 20 feet so they don't get so tired rowing.

Oh, wait, THAT doesn't happen, does it?
Were you raised on a diet of paint chips and Hitler speeches?
No, I was raised on a diet of working for what I've got, and not expecting ANYONE to just HAND ME anything that was not earned through hard work.
Yeah, those lazy fucks risking their lives to pick fruit for below minimum wage just don't fucking get it. They want everything (like water) HANDED TO THEM? Lazy fucks.
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post #31 of 87
5/9/03 at 3:37pm
It's amazing to me that people are so quick to lambast the Mexicans but nary a word is mentioned about the scumfucks who use them as essentially slave-labor. Oh...but that's just sound business.
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post #32 of 87
5/9/03 at 3:39pm
Quote:
Scott Roche:
...but do any of you really want some sort of "death zone" so that nobody can get in? Why don't you lobby to have landmines put out so that anyone trying to get in gets blown to Hell? I know that's not the country I would want to live in.
Um, the desert is a natural phenomenon existing between our two countries. It's not America's fault that it's not a sylvan glen.

It's admirable that you care for the plight of these people, but we should not undermine the efforts of the just-as-hard-working legal immigrants that come from Mexico.
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post #33 of 87
5/9/03 at 3:42pm
I can't imagine how that is undermined. Again, the people who sneak in cannot AFFORD to legally immigrate.
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post #34 of 87
5/9/03 at 3:42pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Katanga:
It's amazing to me that people are so quick to lambast the Mexicans but nary a word is mentioned about the scumfucks who use them as essentially slave-labor. Oh...but that's just sound business.
I don't agree with that either.

If you hire anyone, pay them a decent, competitive wage, provide benefits, and a decent work environment.

This will encourage others to work, and some to start their own businesses, thereby providing fair jobs for even more people, and so on.

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post #35 of 87
5/9/03 at 3:44pm
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jacob Singer:
<strong>Um, the desert is a natural phenomenon existing between our two countries. It's not America's fault that it's not a sylvan glen.</strong>

But if someone offers to come along and prevent the unneccessary deaths of people trying to enter our country legally, deaths that we know occur, then we are using that natural phenomenon to our "advantage".

<strong>It's admirable that you care for the plight of these people, but we should not undermine the efforts of the just-as-hard-working legal immigrants that come from Mexico.</strong>

I didn't say that we had to let them stay if they make it (though it would be fine if we did). ANd how does this "undermine" the legals? Chances are they aren't competing for the same jobs.
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post #36 of 87
5/9/03 at 3:44pm
You guys are aware that Mexicans aren't just picking crops and mowing lawns, right? At CDA South we have a dozen legal non-English-speaking immigrants who are making between 12-15 dollars an hour in graphics and woodworking. THESE are the jobs immigrants are trying to get, but when the job market is flooded with thousands of illegals willing to work for less, unscrupulous companies take advantage of them. We aren't helping them by ENCOURAGING them to emigrate here illegally.
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post #37 of 87
5/9/03 at 3:46pm
Quote:
Grifter:
I don't fully agree with that either.
The word fully doesn't belong there.
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post #38 of 87
5/9/03 at 3:48pm
Yes but Jacob I would say the odds are that the illegals aren't as skilled. They are the ones who take whatever job they can get. But I admit that this is just a guess on my part.
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post #39 of 87
5/9/03 at 3:49pm
Quote:
Grifter:
Quote:
Katanga:
It's amazing to me that people are so quick to lambast the Mexicans but nary a word is mentioned about the scumfucks who use them as essentially slave-labor. Oh...but that's just sound business.
I don't fully agree with that either.

If you hire anyone, pay them a decent, competitive wage, provide benefits, and a decent work environment.

This will encourage others to work, and some to start their own businesses, thereby providing fair jobs for even more people, and so on.
Say what? Dude, the construction industry (around here anyways) THRIVES on collecting illegals, paying them $1 an hour/no benefits...and so on. I have yet to see any of these guys put out of business and forced to adhere to the letter of the law.
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post #40 of 87
5/9/03 at 3:50pm
I think if you put Dan and Jacob's approaches together, you get the most sense.

This is , of course, illegal, and the lawsuit is a bad idea...I think most, if not all here, agree with that.

THAT BEING SAID, that does not, in any way, deter these people, so now that we have those two facts established, what do we do now?

Water stations indeed would seem both a) Humane and B)an easy waypoint to track their progress, as anyone crossing through the dessert would HAVE to stop there. And if the government isn't providing it, and a private group wants to take over...why not?

But as Jacob said, we can't let this undermine legal immigrant efforts and the only way that could happen is if the long-forgotten Bush proposal of simply granting citizenship to those who've made it across illegally is resurrected. Barring that, legal immigrants should remain unaffected by this one way or the other.

So I think the lawsuit is wrong, but I also think the blocking of providing water is wrong, too. One's the legally correct thing to do, and the other is the humane thing to do, and they're not really in conflict with each other.
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post #41 of 87
5/9/03 at 3:52pm
I would agree with Scott on that. These people are poorer than many of us can even reasonably imagine. They have no schooling. All they have to offer is the sweat of their brow. And on top of that, immigrating to America isn't as simple as waiting on line and asking to be let in. It certainly isn't set up for the poorest Mexicans to be able to navigate properly.

I don't honestly see the big deal here - it isn't like the illegals are taking jobs that you would be up for 99% of the time. The insistance on national borders for work purposes makes as much sense to me as saying someone from New Jersey has to apply to the New York City government to get a permit to work in Manhattan.
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post #42 of 87
5/9/03 at 3:52pm
So these people leave a poverty-stricken region so they can come to America and live in poverty?
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post #43 of 87
5/9/03 at 3:54pm
Quote:
Devin is the Faux Elite:
I would agree with Scott on that.
Who would have thunk it?
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post #44 of 87
5/9/03 at 3:56pm
Quote:
Jacob Singer:
So these people leave a poverty-stricken region so they can come to America and live in poverty?
I know some Mexicans who I am reasonably certain are here illegally. They live better, eat better, dress better, and drive better cars than I'm betting they do in Mexico and they still have money to send home.
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post #45 of 87
5/9/03 at 3:58pm
They leave unimaginable poverty to come live in the American version of poverty. You should look into the children in Mexico who live in garbage dumps.
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post #46 of 87
5/9/03 at 4:00pm
I honestly think people trying to cross illegaly are simply taking their chances... and putting water stations in the desert is just going to encourage more illegal behavior and cause more deaths.
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post #47 of 87
5/9/03 at 4:02pm
Look into the children in Appalachia who do the same.
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post #48 of 87
5/9/03 at 4:05pm
Having worked with many an illegal in kitchens, let me say that the minimum wage that a chef gets can do a TON for his/her immediate AND extended family back in mexico.

About illegals taking decent jobs, well for a decent job, one is going to need all of the proper paperwork & whatnot. The jobs that most non-english speaking illegals are under the table and certainly less skilled (or well paying) as graphic design.
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post #49 of 87
5/9/03 at 4:12pm
Quote:
Guttenberg Fan Club:
Having worked with many an illegal in kitchens, let me say that the minimum wage that a chef gets can do a TON for his/her immediate AND extended family back in mexico.
I realize that, but there's a 500% difference between minimum wage and the dollar an hour someone mentioned above.

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post #50 of 87
5/9/03 at 4:27pm
And Devin, I would think that since Big Business like the Agricultural combines exploit these people endlessly that you'd be the last person to want to help someone be 'Americanized'.

From an interesting article <a href="http://www.socialistappeal.org/immigration/undocumented_workers.html" target="_blank">here:</a>

Quote:
Undocumented workers have provided advantages to many, not least in the sphere of fiscal tax collection: according to some sources this sector of the population has left $20 million in unreturned taxes in the US Treasury over the past ten years. But there is more. Another important benefit which is a boon the US bourgeoisie is the fact that against their will, undocumented workers act as a valuable instrument to control wages of local workers. Even chairmain of the Federal Reserve Alan Greenspan, recognizes this fact (La Jornada 07/08/01).

Discussing the topic of undocumented workers involves dealing with immigration and Latinos at the same time. One is the product of the other. Migration and the presence of Latinos is also a profitable business for the American bourgeoisie: according to the advice column in the Santiago and Valdés Solutions Latinos represent 8% of annual consumption in the US - $560 million worth.

“If undocumented workers and Latinos are such an important business, why change things? Why stop treating them as second and third rate citizens and grant them full rights? Nothing doing! Let the fiesta continue in the same way!” These are surely the thoughts of Bush and the American bourgeoisie with respect to this subject.

Over the span of several decades, the cost of their aspirations for a better life has been very high for undocumented immigrants. According to information from the Mexican government, an average of 500 people die annually intending to cross illegally into US territory through its border with Mexico.
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