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Heroin, missiles and nukes oh my.

post #1 of 27
Thread Starter 
North Korean Defector Tells U.S. Congress of Heroin Production
Washington, May 20 (Bloomberg)

The North Korean government has been helping to finance its survival for more than a decade through the production and sale of heroin, a former North Korean official told Congress.

The late North Korean leader Kim Il Sung ordered the effort to begin ``in earnest'' in the late 1980s, the former official told a Senate Governmental Affairs subcommittee. He was hidden from audience view and was identified only as ``high-ranking.''

``Kim Il Sung told the people to earn hard currency by selling heroin and selling opium because he needed cash,'' said the official, who spoke through a translator.

North Korea's alleged drug smuggling efforts gained new prominence last month when a North Korean ship, named the Pong Su, was found trying to deliver a 110-pound shipment of heroin, worth about $50 million, to a fishing boat off the south Australian coast.

The discovery came as the U.S. and other countries already were engaged in efforts to convince North Korea it should resume compliance with a 1994 agreement under which it promised to abandon efforts to produce nuclear weapons.

The incident helps prove that the U.S. is facing a government willing to violate international laws governing narcotics as well as arms proliferation, said Senator Peter Fitzgerald, chairman of the subcommittee for international security matters.

``North Korea is essentially a crime syndicate with nuclear bombs,'' said Fitzgerald, a Republican of Illinois.

U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell previously told a Senate committee the Pong Su incident showed the North Korean government ``thrives on criminality.'' The North Korean government denied the charge.

Extent of Production

North Korea uses its diplomats and businessmen to carry out the drug trade, which also includes methamphetamines, the unidentified former North Korean official, who defected in 1998, told the Senate subcommittee today.

U.S. and international authorities had previously reported North Korea's cultivation of opium used to make heroin, although without certainty over the scale of the operation or its official authorization.

North Korean diplomats since the 1970s have been caught violating narcotics laws overseas, the U.S. State Department said in March in its annual strategy report on international narcotics control.

``Despite close and careful monitoring of North Korea by many law enforcement and foreign affairs agencies, the United States has not been able to determine the extent to which the North Korean government is involved in manufacturing and trafficking in illegal drugs,'' the department said.

Political Considerations

Part of that official U.S. uncertainty may have been due to a law requiring additional U.S. sanctions on any country found to have 1,000 hectares of more of opium under cultivation, said Nicholas Eberstadt, an analyst with the American Enterprise Institute, a private policy research group.

The U.S. hasn't certified North Korea to be exceeding that level, although evidence points to a much larger figure, Eberstadt said. The accompanying sanctions would make negotiations with North Korea more difficult, he said.

Robert Gallucci, who negotiated the 1994 agreement during the Clinton administration, recommended that the U.S. take steps to intercept North Korean narcotics shipments. China, however, may be an obstacle, he said.

``We have to wonder to the extent to which they'll cooperate with us,'' Gallucci said.

The Council on Foreign Relations, in a report yesterday on North Korea, criticized President George W. Bush, saying he failed to negotiate more aggressively over North Korea's rejection of the 1994 agreement.

Interim Agreement Recommended

North Korea has insisted that the U.S. negotiate the matter one-on-one. Bush has insisted that the talks include such allies as South Korea and Japan, which also are directly affected by North Korea's weapons efforts.

The council, a policy research organization, said Bush should try to quickly conclude an interim agreement with the North Koreans that tests their intentions. The U.S. should then be prepared to work with its allies to impose tough measures in the case of failure, including new economic sanctions and a naval blockade of North Korea, it said.

U.S. and North Korean officials held a preliminary round of talks last month in Beijing without any agreement on further negotiations.

The White House said yesterday that it is considering holding more talks with North Korea over its nuclear program and will discuss the issue when Japan's Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi visits the U.S. this week.
post #2 of 27
As a former US Army, Korean Linguist, and Intel Analyst, I can safely say, the VAST majority of people have NO CLUE all the weird crap that goes on in North Korea.

Once the spotlight is truly on them, there will be some seriously interesting stuff that comes out.
post #3 of 27
Quote:
You're Gonna Get The Business:
We're going to have to wait awhile for that spotlight to shine.We are so tied up in the Middle East,that I don't see us leaving anytime soon(Saudi Arabia and Syria,this means you)
Uhhh...sorry. There's no interest here in the United States to reduce the appetite for drugs. After all, you've got needle exchanges, free methodone clinics, etc. These things encourage the furtherance of heroin use.

The continuation of drug use is paramount to left interests here. Therefore the United States fits very nicely into North Korean interests.
post #4 of 27
Needle exchanges and methadone programs are completely useless then? How does that tie in with the left exactly? I don't hear too many liberal politicians supporting heroin or trying to expand its use. And before you start, I don't think legalizing marijuana has much to do with aiding the drug culture. It's just dealing with a contradiction in our society where smoking cigarettes and drinking alcohol is legal and smoking pot is not. The tobacco lobby wants us to believe marijuana use is extremely dangerous. Find a doctor who believes marijuana use is markedly worse than cigarettes or alcohol use.
post #5 of 27
Quote:
Starring Kronos as Himself:
The continuation of drug use is paramount to left interests here. Therefore the United States fits very nicely into North Korean interests.
Yeah, all those left-wingers at the CIA who were dealing in heroin and cocaine in South America really tee me off.
post #6 of 27
Quote:
Jacob Singer:
Quote:
Starring Kronos as Himself:
The continuation of drug use is paramount to left interests here. Therefore the United States fits very nicely into North Korean interests.
Yeah, all those left-wingers at the CIA who were dealing in heroin and cocaine in South America really tee me off.
Could you enlighten me on this? You don't have to post it here (maybe another thread or a PM), but I haven't heard about the CIA dabbling in the S. American drug trade before.
post #7 of 27
You've never heard this before? I'm starting to understand why some people are conservative...

During the hey day of the contras, the CIA was bringing drugs in to the US to fund weapons for anti-communist guerrillas.
post #8 of 27
Quote:
Starring Kronos as Himself:
Uhhh...sorry. There's no interest here in the United States to reduce the appetite for drugs. After all, you've got needle exchanges, free methodone clinics, etc. These things encourage the furtherance of heroin use.

The continuation of drug use is paramount to left interests here. Therefore the United States fits very nicely into North Korean interests.
Aren't you forgetting the other half of the "appetite for drugs" in this country? You know...the increasingly powerful mood-altering drugs that gain popularity each year?

They're from legal pharmecutical companies, who're pretty much Bush/Republican supporters for a number of shady reasons.
post #9 of 27
Quote:
Devin is the Faux Elite:
You've never heard this before? I'm starting to understand why some people are conservative...

During the hey day of the contras, the CIA was bringing drugs in to the US to fund weapons for anti-communist guerrillas.
Not to mention "Air America" founded during the Viet Nam war to help funnel drugs, money, etc... through the "Golden Triangle". It was all in our best interest at that time, and covered fairly well, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Yeah, CIA has been in the drug trade for awhile. Think of it this way. Money (cash/bonds/electronic) can be traced. Drugs can't. Diamonds can't. Great international black market currency.

Makes perfect sense to me. It's actually really good business sense, on the International scene at least, to keep black ops, well, black. If it can't be traced, It can't be "proven". Therefore giving "Plausible Deniability" to whoever needs it.

It's a GREAT system.

Hell, (this is dead serious, no joke here) the VERY first thing we learned in Military Intel school was the key phrase: "I have no recollection of that event, Senator."
post #10 of 27
Saving millions in black ops to sustain a system that we spend billions in taxpayers' dollars to "fight" in a "war" seems like a great system to you?

Are you using "new" math?
post #11 of 27
Quote:
mikah912:
Saving millions in black ops to sustain a system that we spend billions in taxpayers' dollars to "fight" in a "war" seems like a great system to you?

Are you using "new" math?
Mikah, I'm not sure what you are referring to. I never said anything about saving money.

I said that INSTEAD of cash, drugs and diamonds are used to avoid traceability of the funds.

There's no "new math" involved at all. I said it's a great system to accomplish what it's designed to accomplish. No traceability, deniability, and an international currency that is easy to exchange for goods and services anywhere in the world.
post #12 of 27
Quote:
Grifter:
"It was all in our best interest at that time"
This should be the new motto of the US.

post #13 of 27
Quote:
Grifter:
Mikah, I'm not sure what you are referring to. I never said anything about saving money.

I said that INSTEAD of cash, drugs and diamonds are used to avoid traceability of the funds.

There's no "new math" involved at all. I said it's a great system to accomplish what it's designed to accomplish. No traceability, deniability, and an international currency that is easy to exchange for goods and services anywhere in the world.
I repeat...if we're using drugs as currency in our underhanded international dealings, yet we spend more than what the drugs will ever be worth in taxpayers' money to "wage a drug war,"...is that something you approve of?
post #14 of 27
I approve of this in every way conceivable. For a few reasons:

1) We are not importing the drugs to the US, for use on US soil, by US citizens. We are using it as currency to foreign powers. (Does some of it find it's way back here? Sure. But it would anyway)

2) The use of drugs as currency is, again, untraceable. That is a major advantage to us. We are able to fund support, weapons, etc.. for our various black op programs around the globe without having to worry about Congress "approving" the money. (Read: as soon as Congress is involved, deniability and security go right out the window)

3) Total deniability for our involvement in any operation, anywhere in the world. "What are you talking about Mr. Ambassador? Those were drug dealers, not soldiers, glad you caught 'em." etc...

4) Here's the kicker. The US uses drugs. The "drug war" will never be won as long as there are substances out there will help some people alter the reality they currently live in. Never. With that as a reality, we can use this to our advantage on the International stage to get done what we need to get done, without having to jump through serious hoops.

Now, these thoughts are going to cause a TON of flack, I have no doubt. "How can you approve of this?" "You are delusional." "There's no way America would be involved in this." "Just because it can't be won does not mean we can't at least TRY." Etc....

Truth is, sure, it's underhanded, and frowned upon. Truth is also that it's done that way, the world over. The ultimate truth is, it works.

So, as slimy and creepy as it is, (don't get me wrong, it is) it works. It works well. This system has allowed us to perform "behind the scenes" the world over, for years.

"Black op's" need to remain black. They do not need "oversight", or "appropriation". Every level of that adds one more layer of security to be compromised.
post #15 of 27
And Black Ops have been so keenly successful in South America. We created Pablo Escobar, and whe have almost no say in South American politics at this point in time.

But other intelligence ventures have worked out so much better. Gee, look how the CIA and their covert operations saved us from the terrorists on September 11, 2001.

You forgot to mention how the CIA funneled those untraceable drugs into US cities to poison the lower classes and forever doom them.
post #16 of 27
Please keep in mind the very nature of Black ops and Intelligence activities.

By their very nature, we only hear about the failures. If it worked correctly, we will never, nor should we ever, hear about it. That means it worked.
post #17 of 27
Okay, you're fucking kidding, right? You're not advocating that the United States enter the drug trade, even under top secret pretenses?

No bullshit, you are advocating this?
post #18 of 27
Quote:
Grifter:
I approve of this in every way conceivable. For a few reasons:

1) We are not importing the drugs to the US, for use on US soil, by US citizens. We are using it as currency to foreign powers. (Does some of it find it's way back here? Sure. But it would anyway)

2) The use of drugs as currency is, again, untraceable. That is a major advantage to us. We are able to fund support, weapons, etc.. for our various black op programs around the globe without having to worry about Congress "approving" the money. (Read: as soon as Congress is involved, deniability and security go right out the window)

3) Total deniability for our involvement in any operation, anywhere in the world. "What are you talking about Mr. Ambassador? Those were drug dealers, not soldiers, glad you caught 'em." etc...

4) Here's the kicker. The US uses drugs. The "drug war" will never be won as long as there are substances out there will help some people alter the reality they currently live in. Never. With that as a reality, we can use this to our advantage on the International stage to get done what we need to get done, without having to jump through serious hoops.

Now, these thoughts are going to cause a TON of flack, I have no doubt. "How can you approve of this?" "You are delusional." "There's no way America would be involved in this." "Just because it can't be won does not mean we can't at least TRY." Etc....

Truth is, sure, it's underhanded, and frowned upon. Truth is also that it's done that way, the world over. The ultimate truth is, it works.

So, as slimy and creepy as it is, (don't get me wrong, it is) it works. It works well. This system has allowed us to perform "behind the scenes" the world over, for years.

"Black op's" need to remain black. They do not need "oversight", or "appropriation". Every level of that adds one more layer of security to be compromised.
Boy, is it working. The billions of - I repeat - TAXPAYERS' DOLLARS...YES YOU AND ME...spent on this stupid war coupled with the thousands of lives destroyed by insane drug laws that unfairly prosecute the most minor of abuses, coupled with the additional MILLIONS of dollars spent on treating drug addicts...

Yup, this plan to fund black ops has worked great. We get to keep countries with the arsenal of a Wal-Mart under our thumb for "the sake of national security" and in return, we steal money from taxpayers, incarcerate thousands of Americans, and lie about it all the while.

Boy, with ends like that how can they NOT justify the means?
post #19 of 27
Quote:
Nordling keeps quoting AIRPLANE:
Okay, you're fucking kidding, right? You're not advocating that the United States enter the drug trade, even under top secret pretenses?

No bullshit, you are advocating this?
I never advocated this. They are not "In the drug trade". They utilize drugs, just as you or I would utilize a debit card, or cash. As currency.

As I also noted, these drugs could, and sometimes do, find their way back here. That is unfortunate, however, it's not like Uncle Sam is standing on the corner selling heroin.
post #20 of 27
Quote:
Grifter:
Quote:
Nordling keeps quoting AIRPLANE:
Okay, you're fucking kidding, right? You're not advocating that the United States enter the drug trade, even under top secret pretenses?

No bullshit, you are advocating this?
I never advocated this. They are not "In the drug trade". They utilize drugs, just as you or I would utilize a debit card, or cash. As currency.

As I also noted, these drugs could, and sometimes do, find their way back here. That is unfortunate, however, it's not like Uncle Sam is standing on the corner selling heroin.
It's nice to know doublethink is still around.

I had a very long-winded rant ready to go here, but I decided against it. What's the point, really.

I'll just say yeah, you just confirmed everything I've always felt about the far right in charge. Thanks.

post #21 of 27
No, he's standing in South Central selling CRACK.
post #22 of 27
Quote:
mikah912:
Quote:
Grifter:
I approve of this in every way conceivable. For a few reasons:

1) We are not importing the drugs to the US, for use on US soil, by US citizens. We are using it as currency to foreign powers. (Does some of it find it's way back here? Sure. But it would anyway)

2) The use of drugs as currency is, again, untraceable. That is a major advantage to us. We are able to fund support, weapons, etc.. for our various black op programs around the globe without having to worry about Congress "approving" the money. (Read: as soon as Congress is involved, deniability and security go right out the window)

3) Total deniability for our involvement in any operation, anywhere in the world. "What are you talking about Mr. Ambassador? Those were drug dealers, not soldiers, glad you caught 'em." etc...

4) Here's the kicker. The US uses drugs. The "drug war" will never be won as long as there are substances out there will help some people alter the reality they currently live in. Never. With that as a reality, we can use this to our advantage on the International stage to get done what we need to get done, without having to jump through serious hoops.

Now, these thoughts are going to cause a TON of flack, I have no doubt. "How can you approve of this?" "You are delusional." "There's no way America would be involved in this." "Just because it can't be won does not mean we can't at least TRY." Etc....

Truth is, sure, it's underhanded, and frowned upon. Truth is also that it's done that way, the world over. The ultimate truth is, it works.

So, as slimy and creepy as it is, (don't get me wrong, it is) it works. It works well. This system has allowed us to perform "behind the scenes" the world over, for years.

"Black op's" need to remain black. They do not need "oversight", or "appropriation". Every level of that adds one more layer of security to be compromised.
Boy, is it working. The billions of - I repeat - TAXPAYERS' DOLLARS...YES YOU AND ME...spent on this stupid war coupled with the thousands of lives destroyed by insane drug laws that unfairly prosecute the most minor of abuses, coupled with the additional MILLIONS of dollars spent on treating drug addicts...

Yup, this plan to fund black ops has worked great. We get to keep countries with the arsenal of a Wal-Mart under our thumb for "the sake of national security" and in return, we steal money from taxpayers, incarcerate thousands of Americans, and lie about it all the while.

Boy, with ends like that how can they NOT justify the means?
Mikah, I certainly understand your reaction, however, as usual, the vast majority take a microcosm of activity and extrapolate a huge base upon which to stand against an issue. This really surprises me for you. You don't usually do this.

I guess we just look at it in different ways.
post #23 of 27
Quote:
Devin is the Faux Elite:
No, he's standing in South Central selling CRACK.
South Central's a long way to go for you to meet your dealer, Devin. I thought you'd be able to find something alot closer.
post #24 of 27
Quote:
Nordling keeps quoting AIRPLANE:
Quote:
Grifter:
Quote:
Nordling keeps quoting AIRPLANE:
Okay, you're fucking kidding, right? You're not advocating that the United States enter the drug trade, even under top secret pretenses?

No bullshit, you are advocating this?
I never advocated this. They are not "In the drug trade". They utilize drugs, just as you or I would utilize a debit card, or cash. As currency.

As I also noted, these drugs could, and sometimes do, find their way back here. That is unfortunate, however, it's not like Uncle Sam is standing on the corner selling heroin.
It's nice to know doublethink is still around.

I had a very long-winded rant ready to go here, but I decided against it. What's the point, really.

I'll just say yeah, you just confirmed everything I've always felt about the far right in charge. Thanks.
Whatever.

The less than 1% of any of this issue that any of us know is in no way enough info to base an informed opinion upon. We just look at it in different ways.
post #25 of 27
No, I just think you are willing to justify this behavior a lot easier than most.
post #26 of 27
Grifter = Cigarette Smoking Man Wannabe

Grifter, you scare the fuck out of me. Seriously.
post #27 of 27
Quote:
Devin is the Faux Elite:
You've never heard this before? I'm starting to understand why some people are conservative...

During the hey day of the contras, the CIA was bringing drugs in to the US to fund weapons for anti-communist guerrillas.
Really? I did not know that. I condemn our involvement in the strongest way possible. We should not have done it, drugs are a terrible thing to get into no matter who gets the money from them. Find another way.
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