I am not a christian by any means. I was raised in a southern baptist family, but since my childhood I really haven't felt a great need to go to church. Well, I'll be honest, I'm not sure that I believe in GOD. My family does. I received a christmas card from my fathers sister a few days ago. So I called to thank her. She didn't even know who I was. I saw her less than six months ago, and she couldn't for the life of her remember my visit. She's 82 and wheelchair bound. She is also a diabetic. She cannot stand on her own, and is barely capable of answering the phone. She has been a devout christian all of her life. Always in church on Sunday and Wednesday.Her faith is unwavering. She's the most holy person that I know. Her love for God is stronger than any person that I have ever met. Why would a God that she loved and followed allow her to suffer like this? She's in pain most of the time and medication does nothing for her. Yet, still she praises God at the drop of a hat. Her suffering is needless. This dear, sweet woman who has never done anything wrong in her life is wracked with pain every moment of every day, and God does nothing to stop it. I know some of you here are very strong in your beliefs. I just want somebody to explain this to me. Please, make me understand. If God is a loving and just God, why let his children suffer so? I'm not challenging anyone about their beliefs, I just thought some one here could give me some insight into this situation. God help me, I don't understand this.
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post #2 of 11
12/15/02 at 3:10pm
- Cheese Biscuits
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Well, I'm sure some religious guy will pop in here and say, "It's all God's plan..." which is basically bullshit-speak for, "I don't know why she suffers and I have no explanation for it." Here are some different options you can believe in (and you MUST pick one, for they are pretty much the only options for situations such as this):
1) God exists, but he really doesn't care. He believes there are better things to do and he doesn't want to waste any time on specific human beings.
2) God exists, and cares, but has no control over the situation and is powerless to stop it.
3) God simply does not exist.
The whole "it's his plan" excuse is bullshit, and would actually end up as a part of option 1. And, hell, if it is his "plan" that certain people suffer and die... fuck him. But, I doubt that is the case. My bet is that (if God does exist) he has as much power to stop her suffering that you do. That's not a comforting thought, but I'd rather he cared and be unable to help than for it to be a being that chooses what it helps.
As an agnostic I have, of course, not made the decision to which of those options I believe in... but right now, options 1 and 2 are not favored in my mind.
Edited to fix a double negative.
1) God exists, but he really doesn't care. He believes there are better things to do and he doesn't want to waste any time on specific human beings.
2) God exists, and cares, but has no control over the situation and is powerless to stop it.
3) God simply does not exist.
The whole "it's his plan" excuse is bullshit, and would actually end up as a part of option 1. And, hell, if it is his "plan" that certain people suffer and die... fuck him. But, I doubt that is the case. My bet is that (if God does exist) he has as much power to stop her suffering that you do. That's not a comforting thought, but I'd rather he cared and be unable to help than for it to be a being that chooses what it helps.
As an agnostic I have, of course, not made the decision to which of those options I believe in... but right now, options 1 and 2 are not favored in my mind.
Edited to fix a double negative.
post #3 of 11
12/15/02 at 3:15pm
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Oh, and my respects for your father's sister. I hope she gets better.
post #4 of 11
12/15/02 at 3:30pm
- Matt Goldberg
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I have to disagree with Cheese on this one. I won't cop-out to say it's "all God's plan", but I will say that it's worthless trying to understand the mind of God. I don't know why she's suffering and I'm sorry that she is. But once you start targeting the blame at God, then he becomes nothing more than an invisible entity in the clouds at which to yell at. I do know that none of us are supreme beings and as such we can't understand this.
post #5 of 11
12/15/02 at 3:38pm
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Quote:
| Matt Goldberg: I have to disagree with Cheese on this one. I won't cop-out to say it's "all God's plan", but I will say that it's worthless trying to understand the mind of God. I don't know why she's suffering and I'm sorry that she is. But once you start targeting the blame at God, then he becomes nothing more than an invisible entity in the clouds at which to yell at. I do know that none of us are supreme beings and as such we can't understand this. |
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Cheese Biscuits, Mr. Goldberg, Thank you. I guess I just needed to vent. Thanks for listening.
post #7 of 11
12/15/02 at 3:44pm
- Ipsifendus
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Chainsaws -
You have my heartfelt sympathy. Suffering is never easy to endure, and in some ways it's even less easy to bear witness to...especially when you're powerless to alleviate the suffering. And what you're seeing in your aunt is the ultimate example of the kind of suffering that we can't address. We're all mortal, and some of us will come in for a measure of suffering that we did nothing to deserve.
I agree with the previous poster that easy catchphrases like "God's plan" and "all for the best" don't help. And I know from many, many conversations on this subject that some people just can't reconcile the very real suffering that exists in the world with idea of an benevolent God, which pretty much compells an atheist, or at least agnostic viewpoint.
I don't intend to dismiss the right of people to feel that way. But I would like to offer an alternative viewpoint.
It begins with the notion that even if you believe in God, and believe that he has a Plan, it's pretty clear that the Plan is not being followed. It's trivially easy to imagine a better world than the one we live in right now, a world with human beings who behave better than we actually do behave most of the time. So the first question is how we could have got off track from the "plan" of a God who is supposed to be all-powerful.
I think the answer to that question is that God wanted more than puppets when the Universe was created. At some level, we must be autonomous, and that implies an ability to deviate from God's will. Suffering, mortality and all that go with it, are necessary corollaries of not following the correct blueprint.
Now...it's easy to jump from this reasonable-sounding idea to the very sick perversions of the idea that get voiced by the fundamentalists of Western religion (e.g. the Taliban, or the people who picket productions of the "The Laramie Project" with signs reading "God Hates Fags!"). The worst of these perversions is turning:
suffering is the outcome of creatures deviating from the creator's intent
into:
suffering is God's punishment for bad things that you personally have done. Sinner!
The real truth is more subtle, and may even offer some comfort to those who are sick, or in pain, or lonely, or under attack. The idea is that there is a certain amount of suffering in the Universe that must by experienced by somebody. This suffering is created by the universe being "off-track" in some fundamental way, and the total amount is a constant. It can take different forms, and be handled differently by different people, but it cannot go unexperienced.
Now...how can a benevolent God intervene in this process, and show mercy to his creations, without violating the structure of the universe that's already up and running, one designed to allow people to go their own way? Well, one thing that can be done is to allocate suffering according to divine knowledge of which people have the strength to endure it.
Again, this is an item of faith, and you should only take the idea up if it actually helps you to understand and have peace with your aunt's suffering. But if it does help, try to see what she's going through as the hard work of a very courageous person, a soul who is consenting to undergo terrible suffering so that others will not have to. There may be another person in the world who is free from that kind of pain because in your aunt's soul she has consented to take the pain up on their behalf.
Again, my sympathy goes out to you and her both. I hope you won't find this patronizing or condescending...if it doesn't help you see the situation in a different light, discard it.
You have my heartfelt sympathy. Suffering is never easy to endure, and in some ways it's even less easy to bear witness to...especially when you're powerless to alleviate the suffering. And what you're seeing in your aunt is the ultimate example of the kind of suffering that we can't address. We're all mortal, and some of us will come in for a measure of suffering that we did nothing to deserve.
I agree with the previous poster that easy catchphrases like "God's plan" and "all for the best" don't help. And I know from many, many conversations on this subject that some people just can't reconcile the very real suffering that exists in the world with idea of an benevolent God, which pretty much compells an atheist, or at least agnostic viewpoint.
I don't intend to dismiss the right of people to feel that way. But I would like to offer an alternative viewpoint.
It begins with the notion that even if you believe in God, and believe that he has a Plan, it's pretty clear that the Plan is not being followed. It's trivially easy to imagine a better world than the one we live in right now, a world with human beings who behave better than we actually do behave most of the time. So the first question is how we could have got off track from the "plan" of a God who is supposed to be all-powerful.
I think the answer to that question is that God wanted more than puppets when the Universe was created. At some level, we must be autonomous, and that implies an ability to deviate from God's will. Suffering, mortality and all that go with it, are necessary corollaries of not following the correct blueprint.
Now...it's easy to jump from this reasonable-sounding idea to the very sick perversions of the idea that get voiced by the fundamentalists of Western religion (e.g. the Taliban, or the people who picket productions of the "The Laramie Project" with signs reading "God Hates Fags!"). The worst of these perversions is turning:
suffering is the outcome of creatures deviating from the creator's intent
into:
suffering is God's punishment for bad things that you personally have done. Sinner!
The real truth is more subtle, and may even offer some comfort to those who are sick, or in pain, or lonely, or under attack. The idea is that there is a certain amount of suffering in the Universe that must by experienced by somebody. This suffering is created by the universe being "off-track" in some fundamental way, and the total amount is a constant. It can take different forms, and be handled differently by different people, but it cannot go unexperienced.
Now...how can a benevolent God intervene in this process, and show mercy to his creations, without violating the structure of the universe that's already up and running, one designed to allow people to go their own way? Well, one thing that can be done is to allocate suffering according to divine knowledge of which people have the strength to endure it.
Again, this is an item of faith, and you should only take the idea up if it actually helps you to understand and have peace with your aunt's suffering. But if it does help, try to see what she's going through as the hard work of a very courageous person, a soul who is consenting to undergo terrible suffering so that others will not have to. There may be another person in the world who is free from that kind of pain because in your aunt's soul she has consented to take the pain up on their behalf.
Again, my sympathy goes out to you and her both. I hope you won't find this patronizing or condescending...if it doesn't help you see the situation in a different light, discard it.
- Dances with Chainsaws
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Ipsifendus....Thank you. Your post has helped me a great deal. I am truly touched by replies of my fellow chewers. I guess I'll just have to resign myself to the fact that no matter what happens, I can't do anything about this. I just hope that if at least she can't get better, that she will find peace. It's hard when someone that you care for suffers needlessly. I'm just glad that I have people to talk to about it. I think that I'm gonna go get drunk now, and try to forget my problems for a little while. You guys are the best. Thank you all. Lunie F Cook (Dances With Chainsaws)
post #9 of 11
12/15/02 at 10:59pm
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Great post, Ipsifendus.
Hugs out to you, Chainsaws. I'll say a prayer for your father's sister.
Hugs out to you, Chainsaws. I'll say a prayer for your father's sister.
post #10 of 11
12/16/02 at 3:53pm
- Burke
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An excellent book on this exact subject is:
<a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060652969/qid=1040064544/sr=8-2/ref=sr_8_2/102-1108290-3174559?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
" target="_blank">The Problem of Pain by C. S. Lewis</a>
<img src="http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0060652969.01._PE_PIdp-schmoo2,TopRight,7,-26_SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg
" alt="" />
DWC,
you might want to check it out as it could possibly help you understand your Aunt's faith in the face of her constant suffering.
<a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060652969/qid=1040064544/sr=8-2/ref=sr_8_2/102-1108290-3174559?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
<img src="http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0060652969.01._PE_PIdp-schmoo2,TopRight,7,-26_SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg
DWC,
you might want to check it out as it could possibly help you understand your Aunt's faith in the face of her constant suffering.
post #11 of 11
12/17/02 at 2:40am
- Anne
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I will say a prayer for your aunt too, Chainsaws. Your concern and suffering over her are palpable, and I wanted to respond.
I read Ipsifendus' post with great interest. I am Roman Catholic, and what he wrote happened to be a good fit for my view of things, I am not sure why. I am glad that what he wrote is helpful to you.
I read Ipsifendus' post with great interest. I am Roman Catholic, and what he wrote happened to be a good fit for my view of things, I am not sure why. I am glad that what he wrote is helpful to you.
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