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LOTR and Christianity

post #1 of 28
Thread Starter 
Now I do have an agenda in posting this. I figured I'd spare you guys the effort of saying it yourselves.

And forgive me if you think tis is too long an article. I do not.

The Truth Beyond Memory
What lies behind the Fellowship.

By John J. Miller

EDITOR’S NOTE: Two Towers, the second movie in the Fellowship of the Rings series (based on the books
by J. R. R. Tolkien) is released in movie theaters nationwide today. Last year, John J. Miller wrote on Tolkien
for National Review, in the December 31, 2001 issue. It is reprinted here.

rofessor J. R. R. Tolkien was grading papers on a summer day in 1928 when he came upon a
blank page in an exam book. Something inspired him to scribble a few words: "In a hole in the
ground there lived a hobbit." The whole thing might have ended there, but it was only a beginning.
"Names always generate a story in my mind," he explained later. "Eventually I thought I'd better
find out what hobbits were like."

By now, millions of readers know what hobbits are like. They're the short,
rustic, and unlikely heroes of the 20th century's best-loved book, The Lord
of the Rings, as well as The Hobbit, a preceding story written mainly for
children. They're about to become even more familiar: New Line Cinema
has just released The Fellowship of the Ring, the first of an expensive
trilogy of movies based on Tolkien's masterpiece. Before long, there
probably won't be anybody left who doesn't have an inkling of what hobbits
are like. This will annoy certain people. If Tolkien has an army of fawning
admirers, he also has a legion of fierce detractors. When readers chose The
Lord of the Rings as "the greatest book of the century" in a 1997 poll by the
British bookseller Waterstone's, the reaction from the critical class was
quick and harsh. "Horrifying," gasped the Times Literary Supplement.
"Novels don't come more fictional than that," sneered Germaine Greer. "The
books that come from Tolkien's train are more or less what you would
expect; flight from reality is their dominating characteristic."

If the new film version of The Lord of the Rings is seen as a flight from
reality, then it has impeccable timing; after September 11, retreating into a
fantasy realm of wizards and ringwraiths sounds like a welcome diversion.
The movie does fulfill its simple promise of entertainment. Yet the book on
which it is based offers the opposite of escapism. It speaks directly to some
of the most fundamental concerns of this world: the nature of evil, the lure of
power, and the duty of courage. In other words, it considers questions that
definitely have not preoccupied the cultural elite for more than a generation.

At bottom, The Lord of the Rings is a deeply conservative book — a fact
that may explain the hostility it faces from some quarters. Tolkien is often
credited with the radical act of inventing the sword-and-sorcery epic, a
genre of literature filed alongside science fiction in the bookstores. Surely he
has many imitators; but he viewed himself in an altogether different light, as
the heir to a grand tradition rather than the author of a new one. He called
his Middle Earth a "sub-creation," partly in deference to the real Creator
(Tolkien was a devout Catholic) but also because he owed so much to
writers who lived centuries before him.

Knowing and understanding these writers was his day job as an Oxford
University philologist — that is, an expert on the historical forms of language
and literature. If Tolkien had never attempted fiction, he would still be
remembered for his impressive scholarship: He penned what is perhaps the
most influential essay ever written about Beowulf; many of the students
enrolled in medieval-English-lit courses probably have encountered his
popular translation of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. Tolkien was a
giant in his academic field, and left a mark that remains there today.

For Tolkien, though, the old stories were more than texts to analyze; they
were a vital source of personal inspiration. Characters and events in The
Lord of the Rings often echo the half-forgotten poems of the Anglo-Saxons,
the Vikings, and their kin. There is hardly a proper noun in Tolkien's oeuvre
that doesn't derive in some fashion from the ancient manuscripts of northern
Europe. In The Lord of the Rings, for instance, Gandalf is the name of a good and great wizard;
in the 13th-century Norse epic known as the Elder Edda, it is the name of a dwarf. Tolkien
borrowed it to indulge his philologist's love of words, and also to lend linguistic authenticity to his
project.

Tolkien intended to create an imaginary world that was fundamentally real, or at least potentially
real. He did not want readers merely to suspend their disbelief in hobbits and elves; he wanted
them to believe in their possibility. He devised whole languages and elaborate histories of Middle
Earth long before he started writing the stories that would make use of them — they filled reams
of notebooks that have been published posthumously as The Silmarillion and several other tomes.
In the end, Middle Earth became a place that was so real to him that he compared actual places
to it, rather than the other way around. (Venice, he once wrote, was "like a dream of Old
Gondor.")

For the rest of us, of course, detailed accounts of wars between dwarves and orcs don't exactly
enhance Middle Earth's realism. Yet Middle Earth is emphatically not another planet — it is our
own world in a much earlier age. We have no specific knowledge of the era because it is so
remote from us in time, though hints of it have seeped into our cultural memory through fairy tales
and nursery rhymes. As a narrator in the movie puts it, "History became legend, legend became
myth." In the book, Gandalf provides a fuller explanation when one of his companions asks about
an odd creature they've met. "Is it so long since you listened to tales by a fireside? There are
children in your land who, out of the twisted threads of story, could pick the answer to your
question," says Gandalf. "Songs we have that tell of these things, but we are forgetting them,
teaching them only to children, as careless custom."

Take the word "orc," the name given to a nasty race of goblin-like monsters. It appears in
Beowulf as "orc-neas." Rendered into modern English from Beowulf's Old English (a language
almost as foreign to our ears as German), it means something like "demon-corpse," or perhaps
"zombie." But the truth is that even scholars of Tolkien's caliber aren't sure of its precise definition
or etymology — leaving open the delightful idea that there's far more to its meaning and
background than what is dreamt of in our philosophy.

One of the most famous questions scholars have asked about Beowulf is whether it's a Christian
poem; it seems to have been written by a Christian, but it deals with a pagan society. Likewise,
there is no mention of God or even religion in Middle Earth. Yet Tolkien considered the book a
reflection of his own faith. "The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and
Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision," wrote Tolkien in 1953.
"The religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism." There are many examples of
this, though readers frequently overlook them. A close examination of the appendices (there are
six, plus indexes and maps) reveals a detail that goes unmentioned in the main narrative: The nine
companions who comprise "the fellowship of the ring" begin their fateful mission on December 25
(Christmas), and their story climaxes exactly three months later, on March 25 (in the traditional
English calendar, the date of the Fall of Man, the Annunciation, and the Crucifixion). Too much
can be read into all this — Tolkien insisted that his book was not an allegory — but it does carry
at least a limited meaning. Tom Shippey, Tolkien's finest interpreter, calls it "a kind of signature, a
personal mark of piety."

The Lord of the Rings, then, is not an explicitly Christian work, but it is entirely consistent with
Christianity. This is an essential element for Tolkien. As Joseph Pearce points out in his literary
biography of Tolkien, "[his] Catholicism was not an opinion to which one subscribed but a reality
to which one submitted." There is nothing in what he wrote that contradicts Christian belief.
Middle Earth is un-Christian only in the sense that everything coming before Christ is un-Christian.

Tolkien does more than strive to avoid contradiction, however; he filled The Lord of the Rings
with patchy foreshadowings of a Christian truth that had not yet revealed itself in fullness. Early on,
when Frodo says he wishes someone would kill Gollum, a pitiful beast who haunts Tolkien's
heroes, Gandalf objects. "Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. For even the very
wise cannot see all ends. I have not much hope that Gollum can be cured before he dies, but there
is a chance of it," he says. "My heart tells me that he has some part to play yet, for good or ill,
before the end." Indeed Gollum does, and he contributes to a medley of themes about knowledge,
salvation, and eternity.

The Lord of the Rings may be read and enjoyed without reference to any theology whatsoever; it
is a wonderful and well-told story. The movie is more or less faithful to it, but only gestures toward
the deeper questions. It succeeds mainly as an exciting tale. Yet a full appreciation of Tolkien's
accomplishment requires some sense of what lies behind the book.

The proclamation of any novel as the greatest of the 20th century is as much a burden as an
accolade; it sets up the book for all kinds of sniping, lots of it undeserved. Yet it is impossible to
deny the extraordinary fondness millions of ordinary readers have shown for The Lord of the
Rings over the last five decades, and very difficult to disagree with the simple judgment of W. H.
Auden: "If someone dislikes it, I shall never trust their literary judgment about anything again."
post #2 of 28
You can put a Christian reading on virtually any text, just as you can put a feminist reading, a homosexual-centric reading, or an African-American reading on any text.

If you ignore authorial intent (as mentioned, Tolkien claimed LOTR is allegory free and meant strictly as a myth for the British), you pretty much open a text up for all interpretation. This will inevitably result in it deconstructing itself by allowing all meanings to be simultaneously true and false. Poststructurally speaking, of course.
post #3 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Don't Stop DaveB-lieving:
You can put a Christian reading on virtually any text, just as you can put a feminist reading, a homosexual-centric reading, or an African-American reading on any text.

If you ignore authorial intent (as mentioned, Tolkien claimed LOTR is allegory free and meant strictly as a myth for the British), you pretty much open a text up for all interpretation. This will inevitably result in it deconstructing itself by allowing all meanings to be simultaneously true and false. Poststructurally speaking, of course.
Did I misread this then?

"The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and
Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision," wrote Tolkien in 1953.
"The religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism."
post #4 of 28
Quote:
CTDeLude:
Quote:
Don't Stop DaveB-lieving:
You can put a Christian reading on virtually any text, just as you can put a feminist reading, a homosexual-centric reading, or an African-American reading on any text.

If you ignore authorial intent (as mentioned, Tolkien claimed LOTR is allegory free and meant strictly as a myth for the British), you pretty much open a text up for all interpretation. This will inevitably result in it deconstructing itself by allowing all meanings to be simultaneously true and false. Poststructurally speaking, of course.
Did I misread this then?

"The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and
Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision," wrote Tolkien in 1953.
"The religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism."
Whoops. Missed it.

Guess that means I can't enjoy the movies anymore.
post #5 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Don't Stop DaveB-lieving:
Quote:
CTDeLude:
Quote:
Don't Stop DaveB-lieving:
You can put a Christian reading on virtually any text, just as you can put a feminist reading, a homosexual-centric reading, or an African-American reading on any text.

If you ignore authorial intent (as mentioned, Tolkien claimed LOTR is allegory free and meant strictly as a myth for the British), you pretty much open a text up for all interpretation. This will inevitably result in it deconstructing itself by allowing all meanings to be simultaneously true and false. Poststructurally speaking, of course.
Did I misread this then?

"The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and
Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision," wrote Tolkien in 1953.
"The religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism."
Whoops. Missed it.

Guess that means I can't enjoy the movies anymore.
LOL. No man go right on enjoying them.

And if it helps I do agree people can twist and turn anything to represent what they want. It is just my faith in humanity we don't decide to do that quite so often.
post #6 of 28
Quote:
CTDeLude:
Tolkien intended to create an imaginary world that was fundamentally real, or at least potentially real. He did not want readers merely to suspend their disbelief in hobbits and elves; he wanted them to believe in their possibility...In the end, Middle Earth became a place that was so real to him that he compared actual places to it, rather than the other way around. (Venice, he once wrote, was "like a dream of Old Gondor.")...Yet Middle Earth is emphatically not another planet — it is our own world in a much earlier age. We have no specific knowledge of the era because it is so remote from us in time, though hints of it have seeped into our cultural memory through fairy tales and nursery rhymes. As a narrator in the movie puts it, "History became legend, legend became myth." In the book, Gandalf provides a fuller explanation when one of his companions asks about an odd creature they've met. "Is it so long since you listened to tales by a fireside? There are children in your land who, out of the twisted threads of story, could pick the answer to your question," says Gandalf. "Songs we have that tell of these things, but we are forgetting them, teaching them only to children, as careless custom." </strong>
This is why I love the books, and one of the things I think the movies portray the best. The sense that it was history at some part in time, a time long forgotten. On the Extended Edition DVD, Jackson talks about how he made a speech to the design/location crew as that "I want you to imagine that Middle Earth did exist, and that the locations where events happened still exist, and we're going go out, restore them, and shoot "on location."

Needless to say, one of my favorite parts of the latest movie was Sam's little MINOR SPOILER "I wonder if someone will write stories about us?" monologue END MINOR SPOILER.

I always thought a neat short story idea would be about a professor or author who was planning a revisionist bio on Tolkien and in the process of his research, discovered notes that revealed that Middle-Earth did exist.

Maybe it's because I'm delusional, but part of me wants to believe that Tolkien didn't create this world, that it did exist. Or maybe, as an aspiring fantasy writer, the fact that Tolkien was able to create a whole world full of volumes and volumes of depth is just too damn inimidating to consider.

Quote:
[A close examination of the appendices (there are six, plus indexes and maps) reveals a detail that goes unmentioned in the main narrative: The nine companions who comprise "the fellowship of the ring" begin their fateful mission on December 25 (Christmas), and their story climaxes exactly three months later, on March 25 (in the traditional English calendar, the date of the Fall of Man, the Annunciation, and the Crucifixion).[/QB]
I think this is a really cool little fact. I think the fact that it "ends" (and by ends, I suspect the author means that it's broken by Boromir) on March 25th, the Fall of Man and the Crucifixion, i.e., the time when things looked bleakest for humanity...
post #7 of 28
It's a story, from a brilliant imagination. Period.

And if you've ever read The Silmarillion you can discover Tolkien's own version of the Creation of The World.

EA!
post #8 of 28
The author of this article probably should not be mentioning Beowulf as a "Christian" poem as the going (and logical) theory regarding that story is that it was found (by someone) circa 900 AD, who added the Christian symbolism to this undoubtedly pagan poem. LOTR is written by a Catholic, who includes symbolism and imagery intentionally in the books that he himself is writing.

(I highly recommend picking up and reading Beowulf. The main character, Beowulf, is one of literature's toughest mofo's. I kid you not)

post #9 of 28
Quote:
Burke:
The author of this article probably should not be mentioning Beowulf as a "Christian" poem as the going (and logical) theory regarding that story is that it was found (by someone) circa 900 AD, who added the Christian symbolism to this undoubtedly pagan poem. LOTR is written by a Catholic, who includes symbolism and imagery intentionally in the books that he himself is writing.

(I highly recommend picking up and reading Beowulf. The main character, Beowulf, is one of literature's toughest mofo's. I kid you not)
I saw the movie with Christopher Lambert. Does that count?
post #10 of 28
Quote:
Burke:
(I highly recommend picking up and reading Beowulf. The main character, Beowulf, is one of literature's toughest mofo's. I kid you not)
That's why I love arguing with the conservatives around here. They're pretty fucking smart, and have pretty good taste--at least, for conservatives.
post #11 of 28
Quote:
CTDeLude:
"The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and
Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision," wrote Tolkien in 1953.
"The religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism."
I believe that just because he said "religious" it doesn't mean that it's strictly about "Catholicism." That's why Tolkien wrote "fundamentally religious and Catholic work.

Religious undertones can be ascribed from myths and legends, and of course, other types of religions.
post #12 of 28
Quote:
Guttenberg Fan Club
I saw the movie with Christopher Lambert. Does that count?[/QB]
The next time you and Chris go to a movie together, can I come?
post #13 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
voltesssss5:
Quote:
CTDeLude:
"The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and
Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision," wrote Tolkien in 1953.
"The religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism."
I believe that just because he said "religious" it doesn't mean that it's strictly about "Catholicism." That's why Tolkien wrote "fundamentally religious and Catholic work.

Religious undertones can be ascribed from myths and legends, and of course, other types of religions.
Even then the Christian imagery is just too strong, to me.

Quick question though....

The part where Gimili and Aragorn protect the door on the bridge from the Orcs, was that in the books?
post #14 of 28
Quote:
Hubris:
Quote:
Guttenberg Fan Club
I saw the movie with Christopher Lambert. Does that count?
The next time you and Chris go to a movie together, can I come?[/QB]
Only if you bring Mario Van Peebles. We can play Gunmen.
post #15 of 28
Quote:
CTDeLude:
Even then the Christian imagery is just too strong, to me.
This is where I'm coming from:

Why does an author write a fictional story? There are many various complex reasons and agendas, but the overlying point is to gain reader's interest. Whether it be 1 reader or 1 million readers.

Authorship and Readership is a symbiotic relationship. One creates, the other enjoys the creation. In its basic sense, that's what "reading fiction" is all about. (I'm puposefully ignoring critics and whatnot because I'm explaining a point here.)

If an author tells the reader that he has interpreted the author's story "incorrectly," then such a symbiotic relationship has been breeched and disrespected.

The reader has every right to interpret the author's work in any way he wants to. Once the author creates something, he doesn't own it anymore. Instead, the work is created new life via the reader's interpretational reading.

Now. CT, you claim that the Christian imagery was "too strong" in the books. Now, I'm an atheist who also found Christian imagery as well in the books. But I'm not a Christian. My interpretation of such Christian imagery is "fantasy" while you find it as "Christian lessons."

Furthermore, on its basic sense, "The Lord of the Rings" is about Good Vs. Evil. That's the essence. Are you saying that every fiction, film, and drama that deal with Good Vs. Evil is "very Christian"? "Aliens" is very Christian, "Lethal Weapon" is very Christian, etc.

The fact is, and DaveB touched upon this, every work of fiction's analysis is only correct in your personal interpretation. You are doing injustice to a work of art if you insist of having one very specific translation.

I talked about the "symbiotic relationship" between the author and the reader. Consider one literal interpretation is the equivalent of one dominant husband and a submissive wife who's not allowed to say what's on her mind.

That's where I'm coming from.

As for Gimli being thrown, no, it's not in the book. The TTT is very short on action sequences. Gimli and Legolas' death-count rivalry is in there though. Gimli totalled to 42 which was one more than Legolas' 41.
post #16 of 28
Quote:
voltesssss5:
Gimli totalled to 42 which was one more than Legolas' 41.
You can put a Christian reading to this that the death count is symbolic of the number 40 (plus it rained during the battle, paralleling the 40 Days and 40 nights' journey of Noah's Ark). That leaves 2 and 1 which totals to 3 which is representative of the Holy Trinity.

Or.

Gimli and Legolas are deeply in love with each other. Their playful upmanship reveals a deep-seated longing for homosexual lust. Gimli's powerful ax and Legolas' sturdy bow represents the phallic nature of their repressed love. The war itself is an orgiastic battle, paralleling the eventual orgiastic unity between Gimli and Legolas.

See?
post #17 of 28
Thread Starter 
Yea but think of this one for a second.

What if these books have been so widely taken in because they are inherit with the morals of Jesus and are in fact represenative of the very things he came to earth to do for all of us? That that very reason resonates with people and they don't know it? It's just that it is so ingrained and deep down one cannot recgonize it.

That's something to spin the head around a couple times.
post #18 of 28
Quote:
CTDeLude:
What if these books have been so widely taken in because they are inherit with the morals of Jesus and are in fact represenative of the very things he came to earth to do for all of us?
SPOILER ALERT!!!!!
.
.
.
.
.
Many Non-Christians actually believe in loving and respecting their neighbors.
.
.
.
.
.
END SPOILERS
post #19 of 28
I won't admit to reading every line of this thread, but do want to add if it hasn't been added:

As I recall, Tolkien was friends with C.S. Lewis, who also wrote creative fantasy tales. The difference is that Tolkien drew on Norse and German myth, and Lewis on Christian myth.

Lewis' works were a literal analogy of the Bible, with a strong, intelligent lion representing Jesus and a wicked witch representing Satan. Tolkien's works are, from what I have read, not intended to be analogous.

But the two were friends and contemporaries. Evidently, there was some room for influence on both sides.

Anyone know more about this?
post #20 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
voltesssss5:
Quote:
CTDeLude:
What if these books have been so widely taken in because they are inherit with the morals of Jesus and are in fact represenative of the very things he came to earth to do for all of us?
SPOILER ALERT!!!!!
.
.
.
.
.
Many Non-Christians actually believe in loving and respecting their neighbors.
.
.
.
.
.
END SPOILERS
Ah but I'm not talking about Christians. I'm talking about everyone. Something ingrained in the Creation that longs for the Creator.
post #21 of 28
Quote:
CTDeLude:
Quote:
voltesssss5:
Quote:
CTDeLude:
What if these books have been so widely taken in because they are inherit with the morals of Jesus and are in fact represenative of the very things he came to earth to do for all of us?
SPOILER ALERT!!!!!
.
.
.
.
.
Many Non-Christians actually believe in loving and respecting their neighbors.
.
.
.
.
.
END SPOILERS
Ah but I'm not talking about Christians. I'm talking about everyone. Something ingrained in the Creation that longs for the Creator.
Or perhaps it's indicative of an instinct we share as a species that tends toward order and/or love and kindness. Perhaps the same instinct that inspires us to create a God who believes in those things, as well.

Remember, love and a desire for order existed long before the Christian era. Read your ancient Greek.

post #22 of 28
By my estimation, DaveB is God.

Excellent point, sir. I wholeheartedly agree.
post #23 of 28
Quote:
Burke:

(I highly recommend picking up and reading Beowulf. The main character, Beowulf, is one of literature's toughest mofo's. I kid you not)
I named my dog Grendel. He's a Boston Terrier. I thought it would be funny to give this hyper active completly frendly and loving creature the name of a monster. That way when I called out "Come here Grendel" people would imagine a huge slobering fanged beast, but instead get my little hyper dog. NO ONE makes the connection, and the joke ultimatly fails, but it fits him. He looks like a Grendel. And I love him very much.
post #24 of 28
Quote:
voltesssss5:
By my estimation, DaveB is God.
Why, thank you, voltes. Let there be drinks!!!
post #25 of 28
Quote:
Aghora: Insert Clever Tagline Here:
Quote:
Burke:

(I highly recommend picking up and reading Beowulf. The main character, Beowulf, is one of literature's toughest mofo's. I kid you not)
I named my dog Grendel. He's a Boston Terrier. I thought it would be funny to give this hyper active completly frendly and loving creature the name of a monster. That way when I called out "Come here Grendel" people would imagine a huge slobering fanged beast, but instead get my little hyper dog. NO ONE makes the connection, and the joke ultimatly fails, but it fits him. He looks like a Grendel. And I love him very much.
I hear your dog's mom is a real bitch.
post #26 of 28
Good article CT.
post #27 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Don't Stop DaveB-lieving:
Quote:
CTDeLude:
Quote:
voltesssss5:
Quote:
CTDeLude:
What if these books have been so widely taken in because they are inherit with the morals of Jesus and are in fact represenative of the very things he came to earth to do for all of us?
SPOILER ALERT!!!!!

.
.
.
.
.
Many Non-Christians actually believe in loving and respecting their neighbors.
.
.
.
.
.
END SPOILERS
Ah but I'm not talking about Christians. I'm talking about everyone. Something ingrained in the Creation that longs for the Creator.
Or perhaps it's indicative of an instinct we share as a species that tends toward order and/or love and kindness. Perhaps the same instinct that inspires us to create a God who believes in those things, as well.

Remember, love and a desire for order existed long before the Christian era. Read your ancient Greek.
Unforuntately missing what I am getting at. I said nothing in the way of Christians. I say nothing of the Christian era. I say it of all eras. I said between creation and its Creator. Thus from the beginning even before ancient Greek was there the inner seeking of God and of course its mangling by Satan. My faith originated with the beginning of Time itself. Not just when Jesus went to the Cross.

I know a lot of people give me flack for staying true to pretty much one perspective (what happened to the whole be yourself they taught in school?) but think about how this may be possible. Many people seem to mistake that at the inception of Christ it was the beginning of it all. But though it was the beginning of the NT it wasn't the beginning of man's relationship with his Creator.
post #28 of 28
No, I know EXACTLY what you're getting at, and it presupposes that there IS a creator.

What I'm saying is that perhaps the reason we view love and order as good is an instinct and NOT necessarily deity-based, and that the idea that there is a benevolent creator comes from these urges and not the other way around.

HOWEVER, Christian era or not, what you're talking about is the Christian God, something unknown to those B.C. heathens who were constructing their own myths about love and order.

Yes, I know you could say that God's influence moved them to create these myths without their knowledge, but, frankly, your belief in a singular creator has no more credence to me than their belief in a pantheon.

I say BOTH ideas, ALL ideas of religion, are based not on divine inspiration, but on instinct that directs us to construct our gods in our image (emphasizing the best and worst aspects of humanity, depending on the religion and god).
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