CHUD.com Community › Forums › POLITICS & RELIGION › Religion A-Z › the bibical justification for self-preservation...?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

the bibical justification for self-preservation...?

post #1 of 15
1/13/03 at 9:34pm
Thread Starter 
As Christians, is there any biblical support for self-preservation when one is being attacked? Are we to take matters into our own hands or is this the time when faith should really be tested?

As long as I have studied the Bible, I have NOT found Biblical justification for murder (or 'self-preservation' as stated by Ludwig <a href="http://chud.com/board/ubbhtml/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=24;t=002799" target="_blank">here</a>) when one is attacked.

For one Jesus never defended himself. He did take action (not murderous) when others were abusing other people (when he tore the shopkeepers kiosks up in the temple it was because the High Priests were ripping of the poor).

And in regards to turning the cheek... I think Jesus didn't mean to for us to stand there and be stepped on like a floor mat. He also said "do not throw your pearls before swine," and "clean the dust from your feet and leave" were you're not wanted. There is a time for everything.

I personally believe that in my everyday life, violence is not the answer. I've seen to many people who "live by the sword and die by the sword" way too many times.

Now... if I see someone beating up or sexually abusing up my girlfriend or mom... may God have mercy on me.
Reply
post #2 of 15
1/13/03 at 9:48pm
The turning of the cheek is not a pacifist idea. It came about due to the Roman habit of slapping slaves etc with the back of the hand in a sign of disrespect.

So in order to garner respect from those who would disrespect you you make them slap you with the open side of their hand. Allegory I know. But that's the historical basis of the turn the cheek bit.

It's an act of defiance.

Reply
post #3 of 15
1/23/03 at 12:06pm
Biblical justification: There are some kick-ass battles in the Old Testament.

Actual justification: Nothing beats the good ol' self-preservation instinct.
Reply
post #4 of 15
1/23/03 at 12:40pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
mastronikolas doesn't tell the elf:
Biblical justification: There are some kick-ass battles in the Old Testament.

Actual justification: Nothing beats the good ol' self-preservation instinct.
those kick-ass battle are stories... not moral commandments.
Reply
post #5 of 15
1/23/03 at 12:59pm
Yes, but they are in a book that spreads the word of God to the people and have God-fearing, pious people as their protagonists.

It's not like the heathen people make war and the true believers get slaughtered. The Jews kick some serious ass in there. And God appears to give a thumbs up.
Reply
post #6 of 15
1/23/03 at 1:19pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
mastronikolas doesn't tell the elf:
Yes, but they are in a book that spreads the word of God to the people and have God-fearing, pious people as their protagonists.

It's not like the heathen people make war and the true believers get slaughtered. The Jews kick some serious ass in there. And God appears to give a thumbs up.
have you ever considered that these people THOUGHT God gave them the "thumbs-up?" You have to understand western mentality first. I do not see God explicitly giving commands.
Reply
post #7 of 15
1/23/03 at 1:29pm
Absolutely.

But if the basis of the argument is the Bible and whether it justifies self-preservation, then we have to accept what's written in the book. We don't have to consider whether what's in there is true, only whether it justifies self-preservation. The rest is a whole other argument.

It is suggested that God did give those trumpets the power to destroy city walls. And he gave Samson the power to demolish the enemy's fort and kill everyone.

Personally, though a believer, I'm of the opinion that the Bible is part interpretation of the word of God, part effort to construct national identity and part mythology. I don't take what's written literally.

Reply
post #8 of 15
1/23/03 at 10:29pm
I am of the opinion that no justification is present for self-preservation in the Scriptures.

BUT, having said that, trying to fit BC morality into the 21st century is difficult, is it not? A lot of customs and laws that were obeyed during that time really have no place here (the whole women being subservient thing comes to mind).

I just find it funny that certain people here at CHUD can use what laws/codes/morals out of the bible they wish while ignoring other tenents. For example, a few people have come out and said homosexuality is a sin, yet will say that it ok to kill others in certain situations, which really has no Biblical justification whatsoever.
Reply
post #9 of 15
1/23/03 at 10:41pm
Quote:
Mike Arsenault (Ludwig)

BUT, having said that, trying to fit BC morality into the 21st century is difficult, is it not? A lot of customs and laws that were obeyed during that time really have no place here (the whole women being subservient thing comes to mind).
More's the pity....
Quote:
I just find it funny that certain people here at CHUD can use what laws/codes/morals out of the bible they wish while ignoring other tenents. For example, a few people have come out and said homosexuality is a sin, yet will say that it ok to kill others in certain situations, which really has no Biblical justification whatsoever.
Oh, it's not just people at CHUD; hypocrisy of that sort knows no boundaries.
Reply
post #10 of 15
1/26/03 at 6:26pm
Quote:
YaeSu
I believe the lesson here is, do not kill. You can defend yourself, you can physically stop someone
I HAVE heard that the Commandment "Thou shalt not kill" has been mistranslated; the initial wording was "Thou shalt not MURDER", which gives that mandate a completely different meaning.

Have I heard wrong?
Reply
post #11 of 15
1/26/03 at 8:08pm
Really though, where is there a passage or example in the Bible of people killing other people and having God's blessing?
Reply
post #12 of 15
1/27/03 at 3:08pm
This is old testament, but still aplicable today.

Exodus 21:12-14 (NLT)
Anyone who hits a person hard enough to cause death must be put to death.13 But if it is an accident and God allows it to happen, I will appoint a place where the slayer can run for safety.14 However, if someone deliberately attacks and kills another person, then the slayer must be dragged even from my altar and put to death.

21:15 Anyone who strikes father or mother must be put to death.

Verse 13 looks to me like justification for self-defense to me.

There's more personal injury stuff up until verse 35.
Wars are justified in the OT also.
Reply
post #13 of 15
1/28/03 at 1:03am
Yes wars are quite justified in the OT as they are justified now.

If there were no justification then there would be no Jewish state of Israel nor Jews anywhere actually.

Read the book of Joshua. The entire book is a blessing for war. The books of first and second Samuel and first and second Kings say much about intiating war and defending.

The whole Old Testatment is about self-preservation for the Jewish people. And God remains the same yesterday, today, and forever.
Reply
post #14 of 15
1/28/03 at 10:59am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
beavis:
Exodus 21:12-14 (NLT)
But if it is an accident and God allows it to
See, this is pure eastern mentality. IF GOD ALLOWS...

... it's like saying that I'll drink 1oz of cyanide and say "God wanted me to do it because he didn't stop it."

This concept removes self responsibility. It is 100% based on assumption.

I mean, the 19 islamic extremist's families could argue that God was in favor of the 9/11 attacks because he didn't prevent them.
Reply
post #15 of 15
1/29/03 at 12:52pm
Quote:
Nelson:
Quote:
beavis:
Exodus 21:12-14 (NLT)
But if it is an accident and God allows it to
See, this is pure eastern mentality. IF GOD ALLOWS...

... it's like saying that I'll drink 1oz of cyanide and say "God wanted me to do it because he didn't stop it."

This concept removes self responsibility. It is 100% based on assumption.

I mean, the 19 islamic extremist's families could argue that God was in favor of the 9/11 attacks because he didn't prevent them.
I don't see it that way at all. Drinking cyanide and flying planes into buildings falls in the extremeist catagory. These people aren't looking for self-preservation at all, nor are they doing to others what they would want done to them.

Free will comes into play here, also. God can stop anything that he wants to and sometimes does in ways that we don't always see until much later. However, if it's in His plan it's going to happen anyway.

Self responsibility is always in play, we are always going to be held responsible for our actions.

He knows what choices we are going to make and by not stopping us we learn and experience things that make us who we are.
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Religion A-Z
CHUD.com Community › Forums › POLITICS & RELIGION › Religion A-Z › the bibical justification for self-preservation...?