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* Getting Off the Fence

post #1 of 6
Thread Starter 
Joseph Campbell said, "Religion turns poetry into prose."

So I'll set aside specific dogma, and rather include every person that has looked to religion, philosophy, literature and music as a way to express their depth.

Let's say you uncover a "truth" for yourself. This, in my opinion, is the only real way to have genuine beliefs.

My question, rather, is why do some claim "lip service" to an entire set of beliefs? (I don't mean people who earnestly believe in and doing their best to follow the path of their choosing.)

It doesn't seem that such people are being honest with themselves. And be declaring an superficial affiliation to others is just increasing the dishonesty.

I present that following as an example only, not an indictment of religion, or of Christianity in particular. It is just something I have the most experience with.

I have a neighbor whose car proudly announces her Christian faith. The "fish" symbol, a religious radio station bumper sticker, and a decal from her church-affiliated college. This communicates to me that she considers herself a Christian.

The Christian's goal is theoretically to be Christ-like. Of course it is in theory, since the Bible illustrates that man cannot be perfect. So if she considers herself a Bible-believing Christian, she should possess a genuine desire to be like Christ, correct?

Her language, dress, and the activites she professes in the presence of company all seem in direct contradiction to Biblical principles (cleanliness of speech, modest dress, sobriety, chastity). I am not passing judgement, but merely sharing an observation. She is certainly free to do and say and act however she chooses. I have no qualm with how she lives her life, nor should I ever attempt to. I am just relating what I have witnessed.

It seems to me, that the concepts of Christianity should be in her mind, even when acting in contradiction to her stated beliefs. From the point of a witness, I would guess that there must be tremendous conflict within her-a feeling of failure as she "stumbles" so easily from what she believes to be right. Otherwise, she is just paying "lip service".

This might be to appease or protect the feelings of a family member or friend who would be disappointed to know she wasn't practicing her claimed beliefs. She might have felt oppressed by a life of church, and is now experimenting with life.

Whatever the cause, she is being dishonest with herself. She is "on the fence". My question is, why? How is she making a positive chioce for herself? If she has found real "truth" in something else, another religion, no religion, atheism, etc., then so be it.

Maybe she is holding out for a get a "Get-Out-of-Hell-Free-Card", should she die and actually bump into J.C. Maybe she likes the social community of church.

The concept, not the neighbor is what strikes me as insincere. At the same time, genuine effort in the face of a mountain of failure, is still infintely more respectable.

The same situation is as true for Pagans, Hindus, atheists, whomever. Religion isn't even the issue. It is the holding of beliefs one does not act upon.

Of course, I have beliefs that I fail in following 100% of the time. I will offer a personal, non-religious example:

I am disturbed by careless driving. People recklessly speeding, cutting through traffic without warning, showing no courtesy when the situation left plenty of time for them to do so. I know that there is a better way to do things, I believe this. So I try to practice thoughtful driving. This doesn't mean that I stop at the offramp to let seven cars get in line in front of me. (That is overkill, not to mention how impolite it is to the people behind me.)

When I can, I try to allow people in. Once in a great while, I might be distracted and drive past the offramp without stopping for someone by accident. Another day, I might be frustrated or in a hurry to get home. I fail. But I know I failed. I remember that I am not in such a break-neck hurry to get home that I need to cause an accident, incite someone to follow me and beat me to death.

But I make it up the next time. I am back on track. I was never "on the fence". I moved towards it, but quickly followed my convictions back to where I felt right.

That analogy, however lame, is an illustration. Whethter claimed religious beliefs, or an atheist's personal code. There are truths we discover and should hold onto. There are times when we should simply "know better".

What do the rest of you feel?

post #2 of 6
I don't think people, for the most part, are lying to themselves. I just think there is a group of people out there who think that you can be part of a religion, and also have independant thought out of it.

Maybe they don't think about their beliefs all of the time. I think a person can be religious without devoting every waking thought to making sure they are abiding by the code that their religion has thrust upon them. Life moves too quickly to stop & analyze every decision as to how your peers would act.
post #3 of 6
look at it this way...

she was probably raised as a christian. she is knows "that it is good for her." but it stops at knowing.

has she experienced the heart of christianity, Jesus? Probably no. probably yes.

being a christian isn't simple. every idea or concept taught by Christ is contrary to human nature. paul writes plenty regaring the desires and wanting of self vs what is right.

christianity is a life long struggle against yourself. most christians have yet to experience what Jesus is rea1lly about. it would be a different place if they had so done. we keep looking at others instead of looking at jesus. we judge others while we have our own set of defects and problems. we are so afraid of looking at Jesus because only then we will look at how deterioated and vile our human nature is.

post #4 of 6
Quote:
* Dave Brosius (General Logan):
I am disturbed by careless driving. People recklessly speeding, cutting through traffic without warning, showing no courtesy when the situation left plenty of time for them to do so. I know that there is a better way to do things, I believe this. So I try to practice thoughtful driving. This doesn't mean that I stop at the offramp to let seven cars get in line in front of me. (That is overkill, not to mention how impolite it is to the people behind me.)
You sound just like me. Bad or reckless driving is the bane of my existence.

I won't comment on the religion subject, you all pretty much know how I feel.
post #5 of 6
I think that those people who pay "lip service" to a belief, whether that belief is a religion, a philosophy or a code of conduct, do so out of a desire to belong.

We as human beings desire relationship with something. I believe that this desire in all beings is a desire for relationship with God specifically. This is akin to the "God-shaped hole" that I have heard some of my brethren disuss.

Because an individual may not believe in God they may choose to seek relationship in other ways. So there motivation in joining a group or a cause or a belief system is not because they believe heartfeltly in that thing but because they wish to say "I am a _____."

Even if they do believe in a god or even the Christian God, it may not be a "meaningful belief", one that is thought out and challenged daily by themselves and others. It may merely be an intellectual exercise or cultural conditioning. But because of this they seek to identify themselves with a particular religious group.

Finally even if they have a strong belief in God (as I do) or some other philosophy, they may still seek to be part of some particular group unaffiliated with their religion or belief, merely out of a desire to relate to others and not because of any dogmatic belief in that groups core philosophy.

The Message Boards may be a good example. The "Philosophy of CHUD" is that movies are great and beyond that even that certain movies are great. The canon of CHUD may include such movies as Fight Club, Equilibrium, and Seven. Now you have someone who comes here and pays "lip service" to liking movies and may post occasionally about them but is really here just to have reltionship with some cool people. This may be a bad example but hopefully you see what I am getting at. Ultimately for most people, being identified as a ______ as belonging to something is as important if not moreso than what they actually believe.
post #6 of 6
Thread Starter 
Guttenburg:
I hear you, and agree that most people probably do see it that way. I know that the routine of life catches everyone for a loop sometimes. Like what I said about my thoughtful driving most of the time. But sometimes I do screw up, and try something rash. It's like that when spilt second issues arise in real life. I see what you mean.

Nelson:
I thought about that too. Maybe its part of her "conscience". Sure she might "sin" according to the "straights", but she could be out killing people or selling drugs... Maybe that's the justification. She doesn't know the depth of her "beliefs", what it can mean in her life.

Jacob:
Good to know. It's not that I can't be aggressive, but I figure there are enough a-holes on the road. If I am in a line of traffic that just merged, and some jackass tries to pull along side the line to shortcut his way in, I will pull out and block him if I can. A-HOLES! But usually, I am quite cautious. Now my GF... there's a stunt driver if I've ever seen one.

Scott:
Good point about human nature and belonging. For the most part, I personally don't want a "tag" to wear. Though I do enjoy being a part of something like CHUD. I'm glad to have "Dec. 1999" under my posts, becasue it means that I have been in this thing from the get go. Not that just joining today would be bad, but... What I mean is, people tend to want to feel included. I concur. Whether or not they find that in church is sometimes the question.

Thanks everyone for the replies.
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