CHUD Christians who promote abstinence before marriage - Page 2

So in other words, you choose the second option where you live your life more accordings to your wants and desires rather than scripture? Would that be right? Are you also asserting that all Christians do?

I don't want to put words in your mouth, so I'm asking for clarification here.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Micah Robinson:
<strong>So my question remains: Where does this line exist in relation to what you listen to or what you watch or even what you do?</strong>

An excellent question adn one as a writer that I struggle with daily. We live in a fallen world. The art that we create as Christians should reflect that as accurately as possible. As for the art we partake of, in my opinion as long as Christians don't begin to believe that the immoral is moral then watching/listening to more "secular" things is not harmful. As a Christian I should be able to listen to Metallica or Marilyn Manson or Madonna (note: I do not actually listen to any of these because I have better taste/sense than that wink ). I should be able to watch Hannibal or Gigli or LOEG and there is no problem. As long as they don't begin to inform my worldview. If I consumed only art prepared bt Christians for Christians it would be a sad day.

Thank you for a very substantial answer. Much appreciated. I'd like to hear from other Christians here as well.

Isn't "Union of the Snake" just the '80s way of saying "Get behind me Satan!?!"

Duran Duran=Hidden Christian Warriors

Being that I didn't specifcally ask YOU to answer the question, not hitting the reply button would've served the same purpose and saved you a lot of typing.

Since we are talking about abstinence, how exactly does abstinence education work? Isn't this akin to teaching a pubescent boy to stop growing chin whiskers? Abstinence is a choice people make, but I'm not sure it is in line with what biology demands.

When the abstinent girl or boy decides to have sex anyway, shouldn't she or he also have been educated in safe sex techniques to avoid pregnancy and disease? I don't see why these two methods should be mutually exclusive.

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Actually, yes. If you're unwilling to answer a general survey that you just happened to pick up, do you return the reply card with a "None of Your Business, buddy!" scribbled over the "Yes" and "No" options?

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I'm not trying to tear down anything. I was raised Baptist, believe in God, and I absolutely respect the personal differences in beliefs that I have with my father and many others.

As Scott perfectly understood, it's a question asked of genuine curiosity and yearning for deeper understanding of something, which is what belief in God is all about if I am not mistaken.

Whatever Devin's motives are, that should not have anything to do with OTHER different, yet related discussions taking place in this thread.

I find that notion to be a little too broad. If you have beliefs and ideals, then you also believe in right and wrong, and if someone's ideals are - in my personal opinion - dead wrong, I'm certainly not going to "like" that person fro believing in them. Giving someone a pass simply for believing in something - regardless of what is - seems to me to be un-Christian.

And while Devin's beliefs and ideals may not mesh with yours, no one with the amount of fervor and conviction he possesses is devoid of beliefs and ideals. They're simply his own.

Do you think that questioning belief is attacking it? When sick children are allowed to die because 'beleivers' won't seek secular medical attention, we should just turn a blind eye to it because "at least it's an ethos"?

And, after a fairly popular president has declared that we are all "sinners", and that Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness is guaranteed to everyone except homosexuals, you can honestly say you think the nation is headed towards belief in "nothing"?

So, if I don't choose to beleive in the supernatural, I don't have "ideals" to defend?

What a bunch of rubbish.

And I feel quite strongly that people who need to believe in something are generally intolerant, close minded, insecure and need to feel morally superior.

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But isn't the refusal to believe in something a belief itself, and a rather considerable one being that we live in a country that frowns upon and ostracizes those who don't "believe"?

I have to say you don't do coy very well. You've made a number of thinly veiled references to him, this just being one of them.

Considering where this phrase comes from, I'm finding these posts really funny.

Well, tiger, since this is the Religion forum I just assumed you were referring to religious beliefs. I would tend to agree that most people, while professing that they have particular beliefs about many things, are often just paying lip service.

So that's what you believe...

No need to self-flagellate in front of all of us.

Um, where did I say your beliefs offended me?

Belief itself doesn't offend me. It's the often sanctimonious and self-righteous implementation of that belief which does.

Read the blather that Jabba was posting last night, then chastise me.

Everyone seems to feel it's just dandy to dogpile on the atheists, but dare say a cross word about Christians (who outnumber me in this country like 20 to 1) and you'd think the poor souls were under an Inquisition.

Fortunately in these boards the atheists seem to outnumber(at least out post) the christians.

Do those 'groups' include the gazillions of churches, cathedrals, temples and mosques on any given day of worship?

I would say Jabba is far from a mainstream Christian, a mistake that Marc made as well. Jabba is Jabba... nothing more, nothing less. Attributing his feelings to "most Christians" is inaccurate.

Huh? Hatred and pain? What the hell are you talking about? I made an emotionless observation.

Please don't ascribe emotions to my posts. There are smilies for that purpose.

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But tell them that you believe in something because, oh.... The President says so. Or because that's how you were raised. Or because of personal experience, and the reaction becomes mighty different.

So obviously we - as a nation - are becoming less God-centric. That's all.

Now, you're just being silly. You reference "trolls" in this thread when you're speaking about him. The remark about "people" trying to tear things down, in fact, concerns - as far as this particular case - Devin. I even specifically called you out when you kept beating around the bush during the bannings when you where trying to get me to set in stone some general standard for banning which you could then apply to something he said to show the double standard that Devin enjoys.

That's just part of your nature, Rob. No reason to be bashful about it. You beat (edit)AROUND bush.

And like it.

Why do you even need to mention God? If you aren't pushing your personal beliefs on anyone, why mention God when you talk about beliefs with someone. Why can't you just say, "Hey, I believe in this or that." By adding God on to your statement you sound like a christian recruiter or zealot, and that will make people(even some christians) uncomfortable. Plus walking up to a group of people and telling them some belief is pushing your beliefs and even an atheist would get lonely real fast with those tactics(unless of course he brought beer, and I was in that group. Then I would be his friend).

You wanna see people get uncomfortable, walk into a room and say you DON'T believe in God. And wear a sweater.

Hehehehe... no harm no foul.

Are religious beliefs LESS than they used to be...sure, however, the day we elect an atheist president you can tell me that people are afraid of belief.

No it won't. On the internet it does, perhaps. But out in the real world being a devout christian doesn't get you turned out of anywhere.

Besides, blind faith IS a bad thing. People are free to have it but then I'm also free to laugh at them.

You wanna see people get uncomfortable [in San Francisco], walk into a room and say you DO believe in God. Sweaters and nipple rings are optional.

Jacob, your world view is strangely local.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jacob Singer:
<strong>dare say a cross word about Christians (who outnumber me in this country like 20 to 1)</strong>

HAH!! Yeah that's why abortion is legal, prayer has left schools, and everyone has Sunday off.

<strong>and you'd think the poor souls were under an Inquisition.</strong>

In this country we aren't. In others we are.

It is the taxpayer's job to spread things that are both true and beneficial. I have no problem taking care of the religious aspects of education myself, but the practical aspects of Christianity should not be ruled out simply because they come from a Christian perspective. If sex is going to be addressed in the classroom, it should be done so in a responsible manner, and it is simple fact that there are physical and emotional benefits to adolescent celibacy. This is not about promoting my God, it is about promoting a healthy lifestyle. This is no different from teaching kindness, generosity, or respect; all are Christian values,and all are practical, as well.

Manning, I do think you have a very valid point in there somewhere, but we just haven't focused on it properly yet. Strongly held beliefs can have a socially crippling effect, but often it's because of the manner in which those beliefs are presented, i.e., as a superior notion or concrete fact, and that the believer is somehow 'better' than those he brings the message to.

Did you miss my reply? Or have I been demoted? 'Cause my ZELOT316 license plate was kind of expensive.

Yeah, good call Manning. I've never been in a discussion about religion in a room full of people with different beliefs. You must be the only one.

No matter what started the conversation 90% of the people are going to side with the more religious person. Usually because they're all religious, too. Also because most people respect those with faith more than they do those without it. Probably because they want to believe (or actively believe).

And Burke, Atlanta and San Fran are BOTH exceptions. Your choice to live in the most liberal city in America shouldn't cloud your head to the fact that the large majority of Americans are still Christian. Most places in this country you are going to be welcome if you're a christian. Can't say the same for satanists.

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With the jingoism currently running rampant through this country, there's no way this could be true.

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But you said that's what this thread is about. the creator of the thread is Devin, and as such "what this thread is about" must be his intent, and so you are referencing HIM, not just a general assembly.

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The statement "Typical baiting by typical trollS" is directed specifically at the SINGULAR Devin? Okayyy......

I mean, you should want to speak about him directly, but you often don't. And this thread contains perfect examples of you not doing so.

Abortion is not JUST a religious issue, and certainly not all Christians are fundamentalists.

ORGANIZED prayer has left school, but no one is capable of ever stopping anyone from praying, short of rendering them unconcious.

Not all religions worship on Sundays, yet the work force is still DRASTICALLY reduced on that day. 20 to 1 is still about right. By the way, I got that stat from a Christian website.

Yeah, believers like killing each other. Been doing it for millennia. There aren't exactly gangs of roving atheists putting believers to death out there, now, are there?

Originally posted by Jacob Singer:
<strong>Abortion is not JUST a religious issue, and certainly not all Christians are fundamentalists.</strong>

That's true. Once upon a time I was Christian and Pro-Choice

<strong>ORGANIZED prayer has left school, but no one is capable of ever stopping anyone from praying, short of rendering them unconcious.</strong>

Point being that if this nation were as Christ-centric as you'd have me believe then it wouldn't have left. I'm agin organized prayer in school btw.

<strong>Not all religions worship on Sundays, yet the work force is still DRASTICALLY reduced on that day.</strong>

I worked practically every Sunday while on retail duty. It all depends on the business I guess.

<strong>20 to 1 is still about right. By the way, I got that stat from a Christian website.</strong>

Do I even need ot answer this?

I guess I should have turned my smiley on but I couldn't because my next statement wasn't funny at all.

Go to China and preach on a street corner. Communist atheists never had much use for Christians.

I do my best to live by the tenants of scripture; celibacy, charity, tithing, honesty, and the like. There are areas where I fall short, and I see that more as my own failing, than the scriptural standard being impossibly high.

On the other hand, there are a lot of things people believe are scriptural, but are not. For example, many evangelical Christians swear off alcohol, while it is fairly clear that Scripture makes no such demand. I don't drink around such people, part of the whole "don't make a weaker brother stumble" thing, but I am also up front about my views.

As to music: I like Sarah McLachlan, even though some of her music presents an unscriptural viewpoint. I still have a thing for Metallica, and a lot of 80's music. I like music that corresponds to what I am feeling; sometimes, I just need a rock balled, or something sappy and depressing. There is emotional truth is secular music, even if it is lacking in the spiritual.

I am careful about how much of that I let into my spirit, though, as I can see a definite difference in my behavior and attitudes when I listen to such music, as opposed to a Christian artist.

Also, I was into Marilyn Manson, but I refuse to listen to him now, as it is very offensive to my system of beliefs. I suppose when it comes to art, I'm ok with neutral, but stay away from those in active opposition to Christianity.

On the other hand, he can give some fairly important insight into the problems people have with Christianity... in that sense, it's valueable as knowledge, if not entertainment.

Not really; evangellical Christians, the only kind you're likely to hear from, are about one out of every 13; we're a definate minority. The fact that most people call themselves Christian actually depresses me.

Was China ever a Christian nation? Are you saying your beliefs should give you the right to go anywhere in the world and preach on a street corner, regardless of the local laws and customs?

The reason this nation IS INDEED Jesus-centric, but our LAWS and INSTITUTIONS are not, is because the founding fathers set it up that way. They were pretty smart, for a bunch of slave-owning deists.

Actually, yes. Religious organizations are primarily social these days. The precentage of people who call themselves Christian and engage in adultery, drunkenness, avoid their taxes, or whatever, if almost identical to that of the rest of the population. Very few people in a church behave in a certain way because "God says so."

Same here, man, same here.

Liar. If you were busy you'd not be here posting every five minutes. And you should realize that this is the RELIGION FORUM, DIPSHIT!

A discussion about restarting the draft occurs. A religious person says they're against it because their religion causes them to be pacifist. An atheist says they're against it because they don't want to die. Who's going to get support and who is going to be called a pussy?

Gah, this is the last absolutely off-topic bit I'll say about this and then I'll allow the thread to right itself.

It's not about Devin. It's about you. Time and time again you've made veiled references to Devin, which...hey, if that's the way you operate, so be it.

But for you to state earlier in this thread - with so much written swagger - that you do not? That you somehow refer to him "directly"...that's BS. I've offered just a few examples that prove it to be so.

And thus, I will remark on that bit of false bravado whether you want me to or not, and that much is my concern. Whether I like or do not like the way you're conducting yourself is not the point. I'll feel free to comment, just as you have often felt free to comment about the way I conduct myself when it didn't concern you one bit.

That's your right here. I'm exercising mine.

That's true up to and including the point "There's a God, and He wants us to be good." After that, it falls apart. I can tell you from simple statistics that the vast majority of people do not agree with the more religious person in regards to celibacy.

Thomas Galvin is making all my points for me. wink

I admire many believers here (in the forums) and elsewhere (in the world at large) for the courage of their convictions. Selflessness and personal sacrifice are traits to be admired, no matter what disagreements you may have with someone.

Thomas has hit the nail on the head. It's the hypocrisy of so many who claim Christianity but behave like any sodomite who ever lived that are truly offensive. And it's usually those people who wear their "beliefs" on their sleeves and want you to know just how devout they are. Like, I dunno, putting up a monument to the Ten Commandments in a courthouse.

Not anymore, at least not here. Read about what they did in Rome, with th elions. read about what they're still doing in majority-Muslim nations, or China.

[quote]Jacob Singer:
Was China ever a Christian nation? Are you saying your beliefs should give you the right to go anywhere in the world and preach on a street corner, regardless of the local laws and customs?</strong>

My point was that there are atheists killing Christians. Nice dodge.

<strong>The reason this nation IS INDEED Jesus-centric, but our LAWS and INSTITUTIONS are not, is because the founding fathers set it up that way. They were pretty smart, for a bunch of slave-owning deists.</strong>

They were smart indeed and I agree that this isn't adn never was a Christian nation. It never was a Christ-centric nation. It still isn't.

Should local laws and cutoms ever be able to stop someone from sharing what they feel is true? Let's even skip preaching on a corner; try opening a church in your living room, and see how long it takes for it to be turned into kindeling.