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Question: Mark of the Beast

post #1 of 58
7/26/02 at 5:42am
Thread Starter 
Given that you are eternally damned if you receive the "Mark” wouldn’t you first have to know what you are giving up?

Let's say that Human I.D. chips start getting installed in people. It looks harmless enough. No indication in any direction as to Good or Evil. It is very convenient and makes life a little easier. How is one to know if this is the "Mark?" If you're devout all your life and you decide to get this mark, thinking that it will make your life a little more hassle free, are you damned? Even if there is no indication other than the fact that it gets installed on your wrist or forehead (That is where it is supposed to be, either wrist or forehead).

If that does indeed happen, does the mark of the beast still count if you get it put on your elbow, or on your triceps? This Mark thing has never made sense to me. Unless I missed something, or unless you have no choice in the matter - and in that case, why worry about it?

In further reading there is also supposed to be a mark of true Christians (please don't ask me to look it back up) that only they are supposed to be able to see. What’s with all the markings? What happens to the Amazonian Tribe that knows nothing of either side (other than still getting to spear fish: lucky bastards)?

Anyhow, I just thought I would throw that out there.
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post #2 of 58
7/26/02 at 4:40pm
@ work now...

more @ 11!
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post #3 of 58
7/26/02 at 10:17pm
Question mark of the beast?
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post #4 of 58
7/27/02 at 2:48am
You better give it back.
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post #5 of 58
7/27/02 at 7:25pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
sidey22:

I've wondered about this, espcially with the whole human clonging thing on the horizon.. I don't know and I hope that if it's happening in my lifetime, I'll be wise enough to avoid it.
I wonder if they are going to serialize or brand clones in any way?

Watch out for Keeper of the Grove #2,#3,#4...
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post #6 of 58
7/28/02 at 4:00pm
Also, watch out for monsters under your bed!
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post #7 of 58
7/29/02 at 12:38am
Thread Starter 
I find that if you feed them on a regular basis, then you have nothing to worry about.
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post #8 of 58
7/29/02 at 12:40am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
CTDelude (Sojourner):
@ work now...

more @ 11!
Where ya been? I have been waiting. It is way past 11. Or did you mean 11th?
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post #9 of 58
7/29/02 at 3:32am
Seeing how it is past 11 here too and I realize I posted that a few days ago look for something tomorrow.

The emotional beating that is Moulin Rouge has rendered me incapcitated to properly discuss the subject at hand....

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post #10 of 58
7/29/02 at 5:50pm
I believe that it will be a conscious choice. The mark may even be out of defiance toward Christians. If you take it all literally, then a lot of people know that 666 is the mark of the beast. I know that Revelations has a lot of symbolism and it gets confusing as to which is literal and which is not. Here's the thing, 6 is considered to be an imperfect number. Putting 3 sixes together may represent some perversion of the trinity. As for the signs of God on the Christians. That may very well be the presence of the Holy Spirit. Just a theory.
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post #11 of 58
7/29/02 at 7:24pm
Quote:
BillJohnson:
I believe that it will be a conscious choice. The mark may even be out of defiance toward Christians. If you take it all literally, then a lot of people know that 666 is the mark of the beast. I know that Revelations has a lot of symbolism and it gets confusing as to which is literal and which is not. Here's the thing, 6 is considered to be an imperfect number. Putting 3 sixes together may represent some perversion of the trinity. As for the signs of God on the Christians. That may very well be the presence of the Holy Spirit. Just a theory.
Tongues of fire perhaps?
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post #12 of 58
7/30/02 at 2:13am
Thread Starter 
Before you draw any conclusions about the NUMBER of the BEAST. The 666 may actually be a 616.
Here are a few sights discussing/refuting/and proving with math what the number is (weird)

Discussing the possibilities:
<a href="http://www.csad.ox.ac.uk/POxy/beast616.htm" target="_blank">http://www.csad.ox.ac.uk/POxy/beast616.htm</a>
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/~eingedi/666-2.html" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/~eingedi/666-2.html</a>
Refuting:
<a href="http://hellbusters.8m.com/prophecy/before70ad.html" target="_blank">http://hellbusters.8m.com/prophecy/before70ad.html</a>
MATH of the BEAST:
<a href="http://216.239.51.100/search?q=cache:v1ZpeZQuMo4C:freespace.virgin.net/vernon.jenkins/wisdom.htm+666+or+616&hl=en&ie=UTF-8" target="_blank">http://216.239.51.100/search?q=cache:v1ZpeZQuMo4C:freespace.virgin.net/vernon.jenkins/wisdom.htm+666+or+616&hl=en&ie=UTF-8</a>

All are found using - 666 or 616 - in the search function of google.
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post #13 of 58
7/30/02 at 2:15am
You know, reading the title of this thread without the colon makes "Question Mark of the Beast".

I don't know...seemed appropriate.
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post #14 of 58
7/30/02 at 2:21am
Quote:
It doesn't say we have a choice in the matter, it says we will all get this "mark".
Actually, there is a choice. But the choice is made nearly impossible if one wants to live in that society.

Mark = Do Business
No Mark = No Business

In accordance with prophecy...

Now, if you lived well beyond where this mark would have any meaning you could get away with not having one. But that would basically put you on the frontier in 1883, or earlier.
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post #15 of 58
7/30/02 at 3:17am
Damnit someone remind me to look at this after i get off work!
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post #16 of 58
7/30/02 at 10:08am
Thanks Kronos, that was a point that I was going to make this morning. Also it is not clear as to what the mark on the followers might be. It says that it would be either his name or his number. This is all found in Revelation 13: 16-18, for those who want to check it out.
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post #17 of 58
7/30/02 at 1:20pm
Quote:
Michael Whitt:
The mark is a big problem for me. On one end I love technology and having a chip in my hand that lets me be able to scan at the register to buy stuff with would rock. But since I was raised on Christian beliefs the thought scares the heck out of me. Actually one could say that biometics is the Mark of the Beast. Think about it, Mark on the hand (your fingerprints) or mark on the head (optical scans) could be considered such. I don't believe that, but one could convience themselves of such.

In some ways it is a self-fulfilling prophecy because one day biochips will come to the general public, and it is likely that we will become a cashless society. But when this happens, weither or not it is truly the Mark of the Beast, Christians will not want to be a part of it. Thus insuring that Christians will not be able to buy or sell. Yadda Yadda Yadda.

Just food for thought.
And in light of that I want us all to think about one thing...

How did a man 2000 years ago in a island prison think up this possiblity? How could he even fathom it? If this was a prophetic word from say 1860 okay maybe it is easy to figure it would happen. But 2000 years ago?
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post #18 of 58
7/30/02 at 5:02pm
Right, because we all know how accurately prophetic the bible is.
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post #19 of 58
7/30/02 at 5:13pm
Quote:
Keeper of the Grove:
Before you draw any conclusions about the NUMBER of the BEAST. The 666 may actually be a 616.
.
616 is not nearly as intimidating as 666, besides that, the sheer number of death metal songs that would lose all meaning could destroy us all.
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post #20 of 58
7/30/02 at 5:27pm
Quote:
Michael Whitt:
Well can you actually prove where one of the prophesies actually did not happen?
Can you show me one that HAS?
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post #21 of 58
7/30/02 at 5:29pm
666 will be Microsoft's definative version release.

Or for you Mac people Version 666.

Think about it.
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post #22 of 58
7/30/02 at 5:42pm
I guess we should just count ourselves lucky that the number of the beast isn't like 7 or 12, something a little more common.
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post #23 of 58
7/30/02 at 5:55pm
Quote:
sidey22:
If you give me a while I can do a really detailed term paper on OT prophesies of the coming of the Son of Man vs. Jesus's life and teachings.. I'd say that's probably the most noticable one that comes to mind.
Nah, I'll need something more concrete, like predicting Velcro or the microwave oven or Elvis.

Hmmm...Elvis...

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post #24 of 58
7/30/02 at 7:50pm
Bible foretold a buncha stuff...and once again why is it that all the stimulating chances to answer these questions come at work where I fail to answer because of lack of resources.
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post #25 of 58
7/30/02 at 8:35pm
Quote:
CTDelude (Sojourner):
Quote:
Michael Whitt:
The mark is a big problem for me. On one end I love technology and having a chip in my hand that lets me be able to scan at the register to buy stuff with would rock. But since I was raised on Christian beliefs the thought scares the heck out of me. Actually one could say that biometics is the Mark of the Beast. Think about it, Mark on the hand (your fingerprints) or mark on the head (optical scans) could be considered such. I don't believe that, but one could convience themselves of such.

In some ways it is a self-fulfilling prophecy because one day biochips will come to the general public, and it is likely that we will become a cashless society. But when this happens, weither or not it is truly the Mark of the Beast, Christians will not want to be a part of it. Thus insuring that Christians will not be able to buy or sell. Yadda Yadda Yadda.

Just food for thought.
And in light of that I want us all to think about one thing...

How did a man 2000 years ago in a island prison think up this possiblity? How could he even fathom it? If this was a prophetic word from say 1860 okay maybe it is easy to figure it would happen. But 2000 years ago?
It just says mark. There is nothing that alludes to the prophecizing of biometics. The mark probably refers to a tattoo. Seeing as tattooing can be traced back to 5000 years ago, pre-christianity and that Leviticus 19:28 says "Ye shall not make any cuttings on your flesh for the dead nor print any marks upon you." I would suspect that the mark of the beast by those who wrote the bible was attended as a tattoo.
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post #26 of 58
7/30/02 at 11:37pm
Quote:
Jacob Singer:
Quote:
Michael Whitt:
Well can you actually prove where one of the prophesies actually did not happen?
Can you show me one that HAS?
The political rebirth of the Jewish People or the Nation of Isreal.
(Ezekiel 34: 11-31; 37: 1-28; 39:25-29)

And there's much written in the Bible about the Six Day War and the taking back of the Wailing Wall.

When you consider that the Hebrews were scattered across the face of the Earth and had no homeland until this century...that's a pretty powerful "sign".

According to prophecy...
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post #27 of 58
7/31/02 at 2:36am
Thread Starter 
Remember when I said don't make me look up the part where Gods servants get thier own Mark. Well I just came across it:

Revelations 7, verses 1-3:

After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow on earth or sea or against any tree.
2: Then I saw another angel ascend from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea,
3: saying, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God upon their foreheads."
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post #28 of 58
7/31/02 at 2:46am
Thread Starter 
In case you are interested exerps of Revelations Chapters 13, 14
End of chapter 13
16:Also it causes all, both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave, to be marked on the right hand or the forehead,
17: so that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark, that is, the name of the beast or the number of its name.
18: This calls for wisdom: let him who has understanding reckon the number of the beast, for it is a human number, its number is six hundred and sixty-six.

Begining of chapter 14
Then I looked, and lo, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.
2: And I heard a voice from heaven like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder; the voice I heard was like the sound of harpers playing on their harps,
3: and they sing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who had been redeemed from the earth.
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post #29 of 58
7/31/02 at 2:50am
Thread Starter 
Oops forgot this part:

Chapter 14:
9: And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If any one worships the beast and its image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10: he also shall drink the wine of God's wrath, poured unmixed into the cup of his anger, and he shall be tormented with fire and sulphur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11: And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."
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post #30 of 58
7/31/02 at 11:14am
The 144,000 are actually 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes of Israel. In short: 144,000 Jews.
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post #31 of 58
7/31/02 at 11:18am
Oh and they are the last remaining Jews on the face of the earth.

And pertaining to the rebuttal to a man 2000 years ago knowing about biometics...tell me why would he say no one could buy or sell without? Essentially you would of course find someone who would sell you food or buy it...but if the only method of payment is electronic date in your hand or forehead then things become a bit more tricky.
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post #32 of 58
7/31/02 at 11:47am
Quote:
CTDelude (Sojourner):
The 144,000 are actually 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes of Israel. In short: 144,000 Jews.
Ooooo...the 144,000 is a very very controversial subject even among learned Bible scholars.
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post #33 of 58
7/31/02 at 1:58pm
Yea because it pretty much outlines the eradication of many, many of a Jewish origin. And I say that with no glee.

The only thing I can think people ould argue is thefact the 144,000 are not Christians. Thing is the Jews have always been God's chosen people. They were selected among the hundreds of thousand of cultures to be His. I think He will use them in the End times. Hence armaggedon actually being a place in the middle east near Israel.
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post #34 of 58
7/31/02 at 2:08pm
Sure, they're the "chosen", but God's really been pissed at them for an awful long time.
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post #35 of 58
7/31/02 at 2:11pm
I'm not going to get into a thesis, but here are some points that I will elaborate on later.

1.- 144,000 is a symbolic number.

2.- You CANNOT, I repeat, CANNOT interpret the Book of Revelation without cross-referencing the book of Daniel.

3- The mark of the beast is also symbolic (the hand= unvoluntary mode, forehead= conscious and voluntary mode).
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post #36 of 58
8/1/02 at 2:22am
Thread Starter 
It specifically says "right hand" so If I chose to receive this mark on my left hand, is that still considered voluntary and there for I have the mark (symbolically) on my forehead?

If that were to be true, and if I already was a believer (in God/Christ) I would already have the mark of the Christians on my fore head. How could I be forced to accept another mark there?

Lets say that the beast has commandos. The task for these commandos is to seek out Christians, Knock them unconscious and give them the mark of the beast. If I were to be one of their victims would I then be damned just like someone who said, "ahh what hell, Give me the mark, that old book is full of shit anyhow."

I am not trying to be silly, I am just trying to illustrate a totally involuntary manner in which a true believer could receive the mark.
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post #37 of 58
8/1/02 at 2:25am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
KRONIN:
Sure, they're the "chosen", but God's really been pissed at them for an awful long time.
In the Old Testament God seems to get pissed at them an awful lot.
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post #38 of 58
8/1/02 at 4:54am
You can take the book of Revelation both literally and symbolically. only God knows how it will pan out. And after cross referencing Daniel you can cross reference Isaiah and Ezekial and Matthew and mark and Luke and John and I Thessaloains and then I Corinthians...meaning the Bible is a whole period. Prophecy spoken by God is relevant across the board and does not contradict itself even though we love pointing out things taken far out of context or pointed out with no understnading so often
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post #39 of 58
8/1/02 at 8:29am
Quote:
Keeper of the Grove:
It specifically says "right hand" so If I chose to receive this mark on my left hand, is that still considered voluntary and there for I have the mark (symbolically) on my forehead?

If that were to be true, and if I already was a believer (in God/Christ) I would already have the mark of the Christians on my fore head. How could I be forced to accept another mark there?

Lets say that the beast has commandos. The task for these commandos is to seek out Christians, Knock them unconscious and give them the mark of the beast. If I were to be one of their victims would I then be damned just like someone who said, "ahh what hell, Give me the mark, that old book is full of shit anyhow."

I am not trying to be silly, I am just trying to illustrate a totally involuntary manner in which a true believer could receive the mark.
1.- you won't be force to receive it. but you won't be able to buy/sell without it.
2.- some will do it cause they beleive it is the right thing to go.
3.- and some will do it because of neccesity
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post #40 of 58
8/2/02 at 2:36am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Keeper of the Grove:

Lets say that the beast has commandos. The task for these commandos is to seek out Christians, Knock them unconscious and give them the mark of the beast. If I were to be one of their victims would I then be damned just like someone who said, "ahh what hell, Give me the mark, that old book is full of shit anyhow."

I am not trying to be silly, I am just trying to illustrate a totally involuntary manner in which a true believer could receive the mark.
I don't think anyone could answer this question based on what is written. I am just asking what you think is the meaning of this whole mark of the beast? There are many instances that could result in a true believer being mark. Is there an exception to the rule? Could/would God Damn you wrongly? You don't have to back this up with something written, I just want to know what you think.
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post #41 of 58
8/2/02 at 2:48am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
THE LORD'S DISCIPLE:
9: And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If any one worships the beast and its image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10: he also shall drink the wine of God's wrath, poured unmixed into the cup of his anger, and he shall be tormented with fire and sulphur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11: And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."
In verse Nine (9) is says that if any worships, the Beast, AND his image, AND receives the mark then they will feel the wrath. Does that mean that you have to do all three? If you leave one out are you okay?
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post #42 of 58
8/4/02 at 1:37am
Thread Starter 
It is not that I am trying to find the loop holes in Gods plan - I am trying to close some of them, at least in my mind. You'd think that this part of the bible would be specific in nature, but it is not. It is very ambiguous in parts and leaves a lot to speculation and assumption. I am not comfortable with that. The churches that I have been to in my life preach "THE WORD" in other words the exact words of the bible. Then I find out that different versions of the Bible have different words. After that, I find out that there are many different religions feuding over what the Bible actually says. Which brings me to the Ultimate dilemma...Who to believe. I have come to the conclusion to believe what my own mind tells me. It is arrogant to some who think, "Who are you to think you can interpret Gods word." Well excuse my language, but fuck them. I am not content with believing what I am told. I am not a sheep to be herded by a dog controlled by a shepherd - but I am not the wolf either. I'm the ground hog. I crawl though the maze of wholes in the ground and I'll find my way eventually. But, when I see sheep being herded off a cliff by a false shepherd, I don't know weather I'll be sad because some of the sheep were good company, or if I'll be happy because I'll have the field to my self.
I ask questions on the message board (all of CHUD) because I find that people are intelligent - for the most part. This Cyber-place attracts a certain kind of person; mostly people I can relate to. People here don't seem to be a flock of sheep, they seem to be groundhogs. And as a fellow groundhog I can respect the answers they give and know that they won't reject me if don't listen to them and choose to dig my own wholes.

Well, after typing that I don't know what I was going to say, but I did think of another question.

What happens to the baby who gets the mark right after it is born?
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post #43 of 58
8/4/02 at 1:42am
Thread Starter 
Rereading that made me remember why I became a Druid.
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post #44 of 58
8/4/02 at 6:45am
Though what happens when you read....

"And the Lord is my Shepard"

?
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post #45 of 58
8/4/02 at 7:20am
Thread Starter 
I keep an Eye out, in case the sheep start to fly upwards off the cliff instead of downward to their doom.
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post #46 of 58
8/4/02 at 7:25am
Thread Starter 
And it depends on who it saying it, and where it is written, and who translated it.
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post #47 of 58
8/4/02 at 3:48pm
Sidey if a child dies they do go up to heaven. It is that way until they reach an age of understanding. Jewish people have that at age 13 but I figure some are slower or faster then others at obtaining an understanding of what Jesus did for their lives.
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post #48 of 58
8/6/02 at 5:38am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
sidey22:
[QB]Ya know I often remind myself, and try to remind others that we are human, flawed, judgemental, and biased.. God isn't )

QB]
God isn't judgemental? or Biased?
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post #49 of 58
8/6/02 at 1:01pm
When you have created everything you have certain rights.

We as humans though just fail to realize we are not all that smart nor full of wisdom nor perfect.

God is. And through our inability to have perfect foresight or all wisdom we will be unable to see God's plan in its perfection.

It is al about being humble. All but realizing that in this world you can step outside your door and someone can jump the curb and hit you with a car. SUV most likely. You can fall and break your neck. You can fall asleep at the wheel or someone else can. You can be brought before a trail accused for something you have not done.

All these things can happen in a moment. We do not control the things that occur in our life. We can only react to what happens and use the things that have been given us to use.

The sooner we all realize whether you are Christian, Jew, Muslim, Atheist or anything else the better off we will all be.
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post #50 of 58
8/6/02 at 5:08pm
Quote:
sidey22:
Ya know I often remind myself, and try to remind others that we are human, flawed, judgemental, and biased.. God isn't
Last time I tried to flood the world most people thought I was being judgmental. God, king of the the double standard. Although in his defense, he laid the ground work for the invention of pastrami, I can make no such claims.
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