I fail to understand a God who would let this happen..

If God is around, he/she/it is not paying attention.

I think you guys have confused God with Charles Bronson.

post of the day. . .

Well as the surviving Sister said:

We as God's children are not granted any sort of special protection. Look at all the Martyrs.

They have the same eyes.

God quit.

Don't you guys learn anything from UNBREAKABLE?

Soooo, God had planned on the Nuns getting raped and killed, what an ass. When God looks my way I'm hoping for better treatment.

If I was the all seeing all knowing God, my plan would include more loose slots and less rape, but what do I know I just sell insurance.

Free Will meets closed minds.

If you are going to blame God for the bad stuff, are you willing to praise God for the good stuff? Didn't think so.

Breaking it down too "a bad thing happened therefore I blame God" negates all notions of control that we have in this life, thus absolving us humans of any blame whatsoever in our actions.

Sometimes the easy answer isn't the right answer.

(I'm not saying there isn't a place for the debate of "if we suffer, why does God allow it?" But talk about it with a little more perspective than "why God let bad thing happen, me no like God {though me don't really believe... it just fun to say stuff like this... ha ha.}
Should I be pissed off that God allowed my hand to be cut by that kitchen knife even though I'm a believer? I mean it hurt ALOT. Did God cut my hand?)

The Nuns didn't say they blamed God, just said it was his will that those things happened. Thing is though, to say it was Gods will basically says God had the info on what was happening and didn't stop it. The faith the surviving Nun has is incredible, but with faith like that the finger pointing is just that much more pronounced.

That someone with that much faith, has a full on belief in God, so much so they have devoted there life to his service, even abstractly, thinks that God new damn well what would happen to her and was complacent about it. Just because I see someone getting stabbed in the face does not make it my fault, just makes me an ass for not doing anything about it. That Nun really believes that her everloving God let that happen, makes me sad.

People mistake omiscience from omnipotence. If there is a God it doesn't control every cell of every living thing under its pervue.

Unless you follow the bible, then it does.

God is the most powerful being in the universe. He ain't got time to micromanage every damn nunraping that happens on earth.

He does have the time. Just that we have the will to believe or disbelieve in the face of everything bad and good in our lives.

We could ask why does God allow a woman to become pregnant where she ends up having an abortion? If He is against abortion why did He allow the pregnacy to happen? Why does God allow the junkie to shoot up which will ultimately kill him? Why does God even allow us to question Him, mock Him, not believe in Him?

Free will. If you take away one portion of it you take away it all. The foundation will fall and we have no Free Will. Trust me God does indeed feel the pain. He feels slighted against. Feels the hurt. But He allows us to freely decide whether we choose to follow or not. If my family were to die in a plane crash I would still follow Him.

In fact why did God allow me to have a brother who was born with cerbal palsy, never able to walk, speak a word, endure so much pain, and then allow my family to believe he indeed would be healed only to have him die at the age of 17? Why did God allow me to endure the pain of always having a brother but never having a brother? Well it all works to His plan. Johnathan is now in heaven fully able and whole no disease and at his funeral and remembrance ceremony people saw the faith my family held onto throughout the ordeal and were inspired by it. It became a ministry tool to people.

Why did God allow the WTC to happen? Free Will....and from that He allowed my girlfriend to go back to church to rediscover Him. And countless others this happened to as well. There are people looking at that story and are amazed by the fact this woman retains her faith so strongly. In fact it is opening up their eyes that maybe there is something to a belief in God and His Son. The Martyrs were instruments of faith which allowed other to come to the Lord. Why did Nero fail so badly to stop the growth of Christianity? Because his martyring of the saints only allowed more to believe.

Why in communist China where faith in God is a dangerous belief is the Pastor of a church imprisoned for his beliefs? He keeps his faith in the Lord and it allows others eyes to be opened to the sustaining power the Lord gives His people. The pastors flock now grows because of the sacrifice he made.

We have become so centered on ourselves and doing what is good for ourselves that we fail to realize we are apart of a much greater picture and our lives have more then just the purpose of ourselves but also to give purpose to others even through pain and suffering.

There is no guarentee in the Bible of a painless life here on earth. Jesus states the exact opposite that His people will be condemned for believing in Him. The will be mocked and martyred for their belief in Him. And through the knowledge that yes my life will be far from perfect I know that my faith in Him will reward me with an eternity of pleasure praising Him in heaven. This life is a speck of sand in the universe compared to what will be. In this the more you realize how litle this time is the more you will be humbled and gain knowledge of life and everything it holds.

I myself have dealt with immense pain. The loss of my brother, of my grandmother. Yet I still remain faithful to the Lord because the work He has began in me He will see through to the end. You can either wish for a perfect life here and never get it and then recieve eternal punishment or you may instead realize this life is fleeting and the enterity of a perfect life lies in heaven and the faith the Jesus is the Son of God.

Where sin is present grace abounds the Bible says. And when we focus solely upon the pain we will never see the grace that is all around us. It is our choice to see pain or indeed see the glory.

Yep, that's a contradiction that many people make (snipped your "me no like God, me no believe anyway" even though it was kinda funny );

Of course, if we're holding people to consistency, Christians, it follows, should blame God for the bad stuff if they're giving him credit for the good stuff.

I personally assign no blame to God for good or bad because it appears to me that if exists, he doesn't give 2 shits anyway.

The Judeo-Christian God is ominipotent, omniscient, AND omnibenevolent.

Which IMO makes him the creator of a dichotomy - how can the overseer of a fucked up world be all three of those things and allow the situation to continue? I would say said creator cannot, which leads to one conclusion: the Christians are wrong on God's abilities on at least ONE count.

Actually it isn't Ominbenevolent it is omnipresent. In fact omnibenevolent isn't even a word.

And believe it or not God isn't allowing this to continue on. It is just a matter of time before He is going to step in and end man's foolery of believing they can continue on without Him. We were are about to bring ourselves to destruction He will step in. This all includes the Anti-christ and such as well. Basically the End Times.

This is again where we fail to grasp the Lord. A day to Him is millenium to us. He is just waiting to see how many bad days in a row we can manage to come up with.

It is our failure to go beyond our feelings and limited knowledge that we fail to grasp the character of God. We declare Him everything but what He has said He is. We blame Him for everything. And Christians blame not God for the things that are bad because we know God works in mysterious often times undiscernable ways until it hits us straigh in the face. We just notice and praise for the good things because we can realize what God's plan is because it is right there hitting us in the face. And even amongst the bad times we praise Him. Look at the nun. Praising the Lord even though this happened to her. So Christians know not to blame God but praise Him in all things because we know His plan is being carried out.

And for those who says will if it His plan we then don't have free will. Ah but you see that is the wonder of an all knowing Lord. he is able to discern every possibility and work it to His and our own good. And if that still makes you think you don't have free will then before you do anything else (say respond to this post) ask yourself are you truly being forced to do this? Are you condemned to press reply?

I think not.

These debates, fun as they are, always seem pretty moot because even if there is a God, there would be no way to understand his thought process.

I see it like if my cat wans to go outside but I don't let him because there's a rabid, hungry pit bull outside. I have a valid reason for making the cat unhappy, even though I feel bad for him because he keeps meowing to be let out. But even if I sit him down and explain why he can't go out, he still won't understand me. My reasoning is unknown to him and he thinks I'm being unfair and unreasonable. But if I let him out he'd be a lot unhappier.

Funny thing is the whole basis of Christian theology is that question i.e. "hey God, the world is f-u-c-k-ed up the ying yang... exactly what are You going to do about it?" Of all people, Christians should accept that the world is screwed up, because there can be no redemption if there aren't people who need to be redeemed!

Look at it this way... something horrible happens to someone who doesn't believe in God, yet they won't hesitate to pseudo-blame God for their pain. In Christian theology, this is a natural reaction but one that is quickly followed by "yeah this sucks, but what do I care since God has redeemed me!"

To sum up (quick), Christians should acknowledge the suckiness of the world (and that God sees our world's suckiness) 'cause if they don't they aren't truly appreciating what they have been saved from.

(Of course, predicated on their being a real God...)

Which, of course, there is.

Here's my problem with this thread.

Those of you who choose not to believe in God or think God was willing to let this horrid event occur, good for you. More power to you. But don't tell those here who believe in the inherent goodness of God that they are wrong.

How is it that the only people around here who have to be accepting and understanding of other's relegious belief are Christians?

How is it that the athiests, agnostics, or whatever around here get to be completely spiteful and over the top in their hatred of the christian faith and that's ok?

Just curious. Things just seem awfully one-sided in this thread lately.

Why? Discussions often have two opposing sides. And Christians have no problem telling nonbelievers that if they don't worship their entity that they are going to hell (if there is a hell - see other thread in this forum). So by default nonbelievers are already wrong. All that most of them ask for is some fathomable proof, of which there is none, or not enough so-far for them.

I bare not hatred for the Christian faith or any faith. I think that if you believe in goodness that no entity can fault you (call me arogant). The Bible has great tips on how to lead a good life, but so do the other "Holy" books - and a ton of non-holy books.

Beyond that, the belief in God has always been questionable. According to many Dogmas He/She gets to hold something we cannot fathom in check, so that we may end up someplace that we also cannot fathom. It's fear of the unknown. As a Christian you may know you're going to Heaven and that may give you some comfort to combat the fear, but you don't know what heaven is. The Bible may give you insight as to what it may be, but it is still a big "?"

It seems as though most religions (notice I didn't say Gods or refer to a person or people) grab you by the balls and they don't let you know weather they are going to let go of them, or rip them off - so you are in a constant state of walking on your tippy toes. I would rather chop my balls off than to have something hold me like that my entire life. I refuse to be held in check.

Occasionally I see a sunset that makes me wonder how all of this was created. I cannot help thinking about supreme beings, like the Judeo-Christian God, and at those times it is very easy to believe that there is one. I hear and see great atrocities, and it makes me wonder how something like that could happen. I cannot help thinking of the inherent evil that exists here - and at those times it is very easy to believe that there is a Lucifer (or devil or Baal or whatever). But my point is we, as humans cannot fathom what is a head of us, if we could then there would be no questions about it. It is okay to not understand what is ahead, but I refuse to be afraid of losing my balls because of it. I think people are more stable with their feet planted on the ground than when they walk on tippy toes - It is to easy to loose your balance that way.

Let me point out that I am not saying christians are wrong, I am just saying that I don't agree with their philosophy, and I am explaining why.

From me, an agnostic atheist:

Point one: The world is not flawed. The world is what it is. There are things we don't like in it, but our conception of what is good with the world and what is bad with the world is pretty much interpretation. Does it make me feel bad that a nun was killed in this way? Yes. Does it make the world more inherently "flawed?" I wouldn't say so. It functions as it functions, and all we can do, as a race, is make it so that it functions more to our liking.

Point two: If there's a God, I wouldn't hold it against either Him or humanity, in general, that stuff like this happens. Although "omnibenevolent" certainly does appear to be a word, considering the number of hits it got when I typed it into yahoo, I'm not sure if this idea necessarily means that each individual event on earth needs to result in goodness for an individual. It might be a matter of a "greater good."

But, even so, I think this is putting a value judgment on things that are (if you don't believe in God) random occurrences indicating no inherent good or evil or (if you do believe in God and give him responsibility) things that God wants to happen for a reason, be it good or ill will towards humanity.

Christians can easily spin this to their own beliefs by saying that God willed this to happen for some greater good we don't comprehend or by saying that humanity (or one human, in particular) is entirely responsible and that society is on a downslide (or that one guy is doomed to hell without the proper repentance, at least). So I find it useless to question God's existence based on what we consider bad things happening.

My questioning of His existence comes entirely from the idea that it just doesn't seem necessary for there to be a God for the universe to exist as it does. Nothing to do with morality or whatever you want to call it.

And all of that is why Jesus came to earth. So that He could show the way. How you get to heaven (through Him) and how to live a good life (following the ways He states throughout the Gospels and through His apostles)

Many people think Christians cannot love or be kind to non believers because they believe they are going to hell. I bear no hate. I wish you no harm. But truth is truth offensive as it is. And trust me I know that is offensive. But I can't fight against what is obvious before me. This world is crap. And the toilet aint flushing.

You know, I really know that most people will never like me just for my faith. But I cant make apologize for what I believe. And was about to write a bunch of other stuff but..........well I think it would make a difference no matter what. So we will allbelieve what we believe. But in the end we will see who is right.

*High five*

If you subscribe to the Eastern Islamic "It is Allah's will" then, God was responsible.

It may suck, but once you get through it (keeping the faith) you will be over and done with it and ready for what's next.

And I'd add that faith in God is not necessary for this. It might be a matter of faith that things will get better or faith in yourself to improve your situation or even faith in your loved ones to help you out.

Basically, not believing in God or an afterlife can sometimes force you to accept that the world may not always be what you want it to be, but it is what it is, and it's the best deal you've got.

God or no God, I refuse to accept the world is on a steady "decline" because of the actions of a few. It simply is what it is.

But if He did intervene in such a way then no one's faith would be made stronger other then the nuns'.

As it says the Lord will never deliever you into what you cannot handle. But it is still a choice whether you handle rightly or wrongly. That nun has shown people what faith is much like Job in the Bible. It is that demonstration of faith that will bring people either closer to the Lord or make them consider Him more.

It is a bad thing. And yes God allowed it to happen but once again it was for a greater good. Whether you choose to see it that way or not is up to you. It is all about what your vision of the world is.

So it rests on you. Free will. As much a blessing as is a curse. Unfortunately it became a curse after the apple was eaten.

Did it communicate correctly the thought that I intended?

Then it's a word now. At least as legit as "omnipresent."

Actually omnipresent is a word.

I looked up your word before I said that btw and I just looked up omnipresent.

*shurgs* and I explained from what I thought you meant regardless it being a word or not.

The problem with this is that you're concocting a good argument why one should distrust or hate God, not why you don't believe he exists.

Anyone with faith in God could easily respond exactly as CTDelude did, and I think there's a consistency in his beliefs that follows from post to post. He has solid arguments to back up his beliefs, though they're based primarily on things I consider unproveable to begin with.

Belief in God, it seems to me, is not particularly related to our perceived benevolence on His part. After all, it's been a hallmark of Christian belief that He likes to challenge our faith from time to time (see Job, etc.), and this is supposedly for the common good in some way.

I think true agnosticism or atheism can only be achieved through disbelief removed from morality calls. Let's face it. If bad things happen and you shake your fists to the sky, cursing God, you're not really an atheist, but just a believer who hates God.

Well said, Dave.

It seems to me that the idea that "everything happens according to God's Will," or if you prefer, "God has a plan for everything and this is just part of his plan" absolutely precludes free will. That is, if you believe that everything that happens is a part of God's long-range plan for Life, the Universe, and Everything, and that b/c he's all powerful and all-knowing that nothing can happen that is counter to his long-range plans, then where does that leave your free will?

Nowhere. If you subscribe to this notion, when a nun gets raped you have to say, "Gee, that's terrible, but it's a part of God's plan and I can't pretend to understand his long-range goals." Which is I think what the nun said. However, that's tantamount to saying that the nun's rape HAD to happen, because simply by the fact that it DID happen and God didn't choose to stop it, it must somehow fit into this long range plan of his. Otherwise, it wouldn't have happened, b/c he'd have stopped it.

So what about the nun's rapist? Again, if you subscribe to this "God has a plan for everything" notion, then he HAD to rape her, b/c that was part of God's plan. And if he hadn't done it, that would have been counter to God's plan. That is, he couldn't have chosen not to. Free will is an illusion, in this case.

But nobody likes to say that, for obvious reasons. However, if you reject it, that leads to a conundrum. What then? God DOESN'T have a plan? God HAS a plan, but things can happen which he doesn't control that can screw up or at least force him to change his plan? The latter seems to imply a lack of omnipotence, or at least a lack of willingness to use his omnipotence to make things turn out well.

This argument is what led theologians in Voltaire's day to say "Everything is for the best, in this, the best of all possible worlds." The idea being that if everything is happening according to God's plan, then this is the best it could be, however bad it might seem. For Voltaire's take on that bit of philosophy, read Candide.

My 2¢, anyway.

Nope, still not a word, sorry to tell you.

Look, it doesn't matter that it's not in the dictionary. It's obvious that he means by "omnibenevolent" that God is meant to be "all good." The question is an old one: can God be all good, all powerful, and all knowing, and the world still be in the shape it's in? Critics would say that at least one of those three things can't be true, given the circumstances of human experience.

I know what he meant, just making sure that he is aware that just wanting something to be a word doesn't make it happen. Would feel bad if he tried to use it in public and was looked at funny, just doing my part, I hate to think of people being looked at funny.

Otis man you crack me up.

You and your endless toeing the line wink

No wonder you got the 5 star rating!

i think I have a negative something.

Oh, ok Otis. If that's the case, as you were. Ignore what I said.

Darn it, how do you turn on the "sarcasm detector" on this thing...

Just doing my part CT. Otisthecat, making the world a better place.

Humans can never understand perfect love or perfect justice, which is exactly God's will.

It's sad. Pray for the nun. Know that she will recieve eternal love. Pray that the criminal will recieve earthly justice. Know that he will recieve eternal justice.

Unless he repents in the jailhouse and receives eternal bliss among the saints. Which could have been God's plan all along.

While not technically a word, "omnibenevolent" is often used in theological discussions. Try typing it into yahoo.com and you'll see tons of hits.

While the folks at Webster might not call it a word, the meaning of the (non)word is still fairly clear, especially as it almost always coupled with the related concepts of "omnipotent" and "omniscient."

What a stupidiculous side issue in an interesting discussion, though...

Scott - interesting point on free will. My argument for free-will and determinism is this, God or no God:

There is but one timeline in the past. We don't have alternate memories of events from previous times in our lives, but we know of only the one possibility that occurred. Our perspective on things may change, but, basically, I know that I ate a cinammon muffin this morning, and I wasn't simultaneously wrestling a bear.

As far as tomorrow morning goes, I can currently envision the possibility of either eating a cinammon muffin or wrestling a bear or doing a multitude of other things. So it sure seems like I have free will, which is nice. But, in the end, I will only do tomorrow morning what I choose to do tomorrow morning, and I will have had no option in the grand scheme of things. I will not have simultaneously been in several places at once, so clearly the path has either converged to a single line (if you buy free will) or the path was a single line all along and I only believed I had options (if you don't buy free will).

The difference between free will and determinism is irrelevant as long as we don't know the future. Thus, even if we believe in determinism, we are forced to live as if we believe in free will, since we have no idea where our paths, though inevitable, may lead.

Of course, if you believe in God, this is tricky, since technically He should be giving you the option to believe in him. And if you buy determinism, presumably God would know where our inevitable fates all lead, and this whole thing is probably very boring for Him and pointless for us.

heh, I was about to say the same thing, this was a good debate in one of the other threads. Prepare to take some heat though.

To clarify, I guess it could be said that it SEEMS that I will choose to do something tomorrow morning. The concept of "choice" is always relative when you start talking determinism vs. free will.

So in your view, everything that's going to happen has already happened along the time line we're travelling on, so that time-travel would be possible, but changing the past or future wouldn't? Are we getting into scifi or einsteinian theory here?