I fail to understand a God who would let this happen.. - Page 3

Aha! So God is actually of the female variety. Or probably a misogynistic gay greater power who gave Eve the bad rep.

Think about it, God created Man first. Logically, God "loves" Man from various levels, including the "erotic" kind. Since God can't physically love Adam, God creates Eve.

And why would God create a male Jesus instead of a female one. Story-wise, it's more symbolic to send a female Messiah as a sign of forgiveness to the sinful Eve in Genesis.

I must admit that I got carried away with my jokes. And for that I do apologize, especially if you felt that I was insulting you directly.

Personally, I don't think such "jokes" are hateful -- especially to Christians. If you think that I am hating someone, it's directed to God and not to the Christians. It's the same principle of love the sinner but not the sin; in this case, I love Christians but not God. I feel that that is a fair comparison because that is the mentality when it comes to homosexuals. Read my "jokes" again. I'm just referring to God. It was not my intent to show "hate" to the Christians.

Yet I'm sure that I will be misunderstood because I don't really hate God. It's the idea of man putting their own words and morals in God's mouth and mind.

Exactly. This is why I always draw a distinction between spirituality and religion. Belief in God (or any god) does not automatically make that person religious. A religion is an organisation, not an end in itself.

The Christian doctrine has been splintered, interpreted, rewritten and altered by so many hands over the centuries that to claim any portion of it as "truth" is deeply flawed, to my thinking. And that's not even getting into the debate over which branch of Christianity is the "right" one - a divide that has bred bloody conflict throughout the ages, and continues to claim lives on the streets of Britain and Ireland to this day.

Do I believe in God? Not as portrayed in the Bible, no. Even there, how can we reconcile the vengeful God of the Old Testament with the loving God of the New? To me, the Christian notion of "God" is an anthropomorphic construction designed to help make sense of the insane randomness of life and nature. It has no more or less claim to the title of "truth" than Islam, Judaism, Alien Abuctionism or any other spiritual/cosmic mindset.

I believe in some form of guiding force behind the Universe, and I'm sure it's the same thing Christian's call "God". But our interpretations of it are vastly different. I do not believe this "force" loves me, or has any sort of emotional response to me at all, any more than the tide "loves" the seaweed that it carries.

To tie all this in with the original purpose of this thread, I don't believe in the loving, caring God portrayed in the Bible, precisely because of events like that. Now you can rationalise it with the idea of "mysterious ways", and that faith must be tested - but that's all it is: rationalisation.

Many years ago, my little sister died before she was one year old. No reason. She just stopped breathing. No rationalisation will ever convince me that this was part of some "great plan" that I don't deserve to be privy to. The idea that her young life had to be snuffed out to "test my faith" seems sadistic and sick. How could a loving God cause such pain and grief, just to prod people into believing in him? Sorry, but that's vanity on a staggering scale. It's not a question of me "blaming" God for what happened, because I don't believe that the God in question exists. What happened, happened - and Christianity offered me no satisfactory explanations. That's why I don't believe in the Christian interpretation of God - because I asked the question, and the answer I came up with doesn't fit the facts as I see them.

I have no beef with Christians. If it works for you, then I'm happy for you. Many of my relatives and friends are devout Christians. But I think they're mistaken, just as many Christians reading this will think I'm mistaken for my beliefs. But from where I'm standing, I stand just as much chance of being "right" as anyone else, regardless of belief. I may not have a 2000 year old book to back up my belief, but I don't place much faith in chinese whispers anyway. There is no simple, easy answer to life's questions - and I'm naturally wary of anyone, or any organisation, that claims to have one.

Anyway, I'm rambling and really should get on with some work. I mean no offense to anyone, and I'm genuinely interested to see what response I get. I don't believe, but I would never dream of trying to convince a Christian that they were wrong. Please afford me the same courtesy.

Outstanding post, Dan. I wish I could express myself half as well.

Loss is not an antidote to a belief in God, if you believe that God will do something about that loss.

But more often than not "God" does nothing at all about loss, other than contribute to it.

But I don't. That's a circular argument, based on the idea that "God", as defined by the Bible and the various branches of Christianity, exists. You believe "He" does. I don't, so therefore neither blame or seek solace from "Him".

I asked many questions of myself, both consciously and subconsciously. The ideas put forward by Christianity offered no comfort to me at a time when I desperately needed it. I know this does not fit into your worldview, but it's my reality as I found it. You could argue that I asked the wrong questions, that I wasn't open enough, that somehow it was my fault I didn't find faith.

Fact is, I looked and found nothing. Other people look and find every answer they ever wanted. I'm truly happy for them. Maybe even envious. But I can't lie to myself. I do not believe in the Christian religion. It makes no sense to me - an attempt to make sense of the whims of nature, no more or less "true" than Stone Age man worshipping the sun. I believe in forces and energies that affect our lives, but I don't feel the need to give them names and personalities, and I don't believe they are even sentient or aware that we exist.

You see, I found that Christianity is what you make of it. What about people who preach intolerance in the name of Christ? Well, they're bad Christians, don't worry about them. OK, what about this wacky "original sin" idea? That's a Catholic thing, there are versions of Christianity without that stuff if it puts you off. What if I just want a comforting cushion to take the harsh edges off the world, without too much mumbo-jumbo? Oh yes, we have that too. I'm sure you can find a version that suits you. It seems to me that there is no such thing as "Christianity". It's a loose description for a bunch of notionally similar beliefs, all stemming from the same source material. Each one believes that they are the correct interpretation. None of them know why, other than the fact that "they just know".

Seems to me I might as well just find my own way through this maze. Make my own enquiries. Draw my own conclusions. Cut out the middle man. That's what I've done. But as I did it myself, why should I call any answers I found "God"? I could credit them to Kermit The Frog if it helped me fit them into my frame of reference. Some people find "it" and know instinctively that it's "God". Others would call it "Allah". Yet more would believe it's a mind-message from people on Venus. I live a good life. I try to be a good person. I adhere to many of the ideals Christians hold sacred. But I don't need to ally myself to any one explanation, be it Christian, Muslim or whatever, to do that.

I'm sure if we discussed right and wrong, morals and ethics, we'd find that we agree on most things. Your conviction comes from Christ. Mine comes from myself. Both are valid, if they make us better people.

I am a spiritual person, but I am in no way a religious person. That's the crucial difference.

My point was probably stated rather poorly. Throughout our human history, death has walked with us. Loss and pain are a part of our daily lives (as well as the precious joys and epiphanies). I can never truly understand the loss you feel regarding your sister, as you could not understand my losses. We both feel the pain of those losses, but I don’t make that loss the focus of my belief in God. God either exists or does not exist, regardless of my feelings or yours.

[quote]The Abominable Doctor Whitehead:
I asked many questions of myself, both consciously and subconsciously. The ideas put forward by Christianity offered no comfort to me at a time when I desperately needed it. I know this does not fit into your worldview, but it's my reality as I found it. You could argue that I asked the wrong questions, that I wasn't open enough, that somehow it was my fault I didn't find faith.

I never ever blame anyone for not believing the things I do. I was an unbeliever for most of my life so I see your worldview very well. However, you are punishing God or your idea of God, because, in your mind, God failed you. After God fails you, it then becomes easier to dismiss God as a “notion.” That is an extremely common trait among un-believers (DJevil said something similar, HAM as well). For a person to say “God failed me,” I’m sorry but that is not a logical way to determine whether or not there is a God.

When I have a crisis of faith, I go back to the beginning.
“Is this all there is? Is there nothing more?” I don’t believe that to be true. So if there is something more, what would that something more be like? My studies and research have led me to believe that Christianity is the true path, which is reinforced by my “faith” experiences. I can certainly understand not believing. I have been there, and though it felt right at the time, in my opinion, what I believe now is a more truthful picture of God’s reality.

There aren’t any Christians that have been 100% correct about Christianity. Whatever version you ascribe too, there is only one real version. Just because there are heresies does not invalidate or cast doubt upon the reality. I hate it when people say, “they just know.” God created us with a brain; use it. Evidence is never un-important. If you don’t have evidence, what do you have?

Whatever you call God, God is what God is. The question is “What does God want us to call God? What is God like?” If God is good, what does God think of me? I can’t say I don’t arrogantly think that I’m a good person, but in the end I know that I fail. My convictions come from myself as well, but I know that God forgives me when I err… even if I don’t know I have erred.
Regardless, God is what God is and nothing you or I say can change that. Your beliefs appear as strong as mine, but we can’t both be right. I would prefer to be right, even if the answer made me unhappy then to live a lie. I’m not a perfect person, far from it, but I believe that God loves me anyway… and that God has given me more than I could have ever hoped for… because God is real.

(I apologize for the poor writing as I am at work. Other examples of poor writing on my behalf have similar excuses.)

Sometimes I wonder why I like posting here. Is it because I'm compelled to change other people's beliefs? Is it my goal to challenge and question their beliefs?

To a point, I think that is what I'm unconsciously doing. I mean, why else would we get into these types of discourse? I've also realized that there is a fine line I should tread lightly in (i.e., "jokes").

But I think it's because I want to reflect on my own faith (or lack thereof). What's the point of believing in something if you don't reflect on it? I think questioning my own faith and other people's faith is spiritually healthy and rewarding. A wise man once said: "An unexamined life is not worth living." I agree. If you just blindly accept your faith (whatever it is), I think you are doing a disservice to your own spiritual growth and humanity.

You MUST question your faith.

I really have no point really. I just want to say this because I feel like I've contributed to sidey waving his white flag.

Still, Dan pretty much summed up my beliefs. I really wish that we rely more on having faith on ourselves rather than on God (or other type(s) of intangible entity/being). But that is just my personal belief. I have also witnessed people find strength in religion.

Well, I feel like I'm not being clear enough so I should stop right there.

I didn't mean to turn this into another "Does God exist debate". I just had a few things I wanted to get off my chest, and this seemed like the right place and time to do it. I don't post in this forum that often, so if I've raked over old ground then I apologise.

I plan to keep questioning my thoughts and beliefs on this matter. To do anything else just doesn't make sense. I can't promise that the path I find will lead me to Christianity, but I'm not excluding the possibility either. Stranger things have happened.

This is ALL futile discussion, folks... no matter how interesting the different opinions might be. Nobody's gonna change ANYONE'S mind on this one iota.

Yeah, just like movies.

I don't think anybody here is looking to change minds. I post my perspective; do with it what you well. I, for one, am fascinated by everyone else's point of view. I love hearing different perspectives.

(I reject the label of "self-absorbed" even though I started the last five sentences with I. I swear... D'oh.)

Sorry Carl but I'm with Burke, I have gone back and fourth with people all over the religion boards, it is all just in good fun and promotes sharing ideas. People don't come here to change minds, just to listen to others thoughts and express there own. From what I have seen, these forums, for all the disagreement, stay pretty damn civil compared with some of the others.

Even with some of your posts!

Always happy to share!

I've only read through part of this thread. It is an interesting topic and one that has hit home with me in my past. This will be my 1,000th post and I wanted it to be on a special topic. This is it.
I may have mentioned this story before in the past and to those who have read it, I apologize for me redundancy. To those who have not heard this story, here you go.
I had several very close friends in high school. Most were Christians. But as time moved us into college, many turned their backs on their faith. The world was becoming a much lonlier place for me, but I had 2 friends that stayed faithful to God. One was Steve Harrington. He was my competition in model building and miniatures in HS and a very close friend. He was there when I had nose surgery. He was there through a very painful breakup with a girl that I loved more than the world. He was catholic and I'm protestant, but that didn't matter. Steve went into the priesthood and I felt that he really belonged there. I knew that God was in his heart and that was so rare in most of the people that I had known to be professing Christians. In 1984, he and I met at a monestary in Conyers, GA and talked about spiritual matters. I was going through a very hard time, but he and I were able to discuss things intelligently and I remember when I got in the car to leave, Steve was standing outside of his and I thought that he truly had a calling from God. There was a sense of comfort in having him as a friend. He went off to Iowa and even though we were far away, I always felt a closeness to him. One morning in 1991, my phone rang. Steve was dead. He was to do a funeral ceremony and was had decided to stay at the parish alone to prepare for it. They had a workout facility in the building and he had decided to workout that evening, I guess to unwind. While doing an exercise with cables, one got wrapped around his throat and he was hung to death. I was devistated. I remember being so mad at God. "Why did he need Steve to die?" There seemed to be so few sincere Christian people here and we need people like him so badly here. I kept thinking back on how I had always wanted to go visit him and never did. I thought about the stories of how I had heard that he could be seen on rollerskates and imagined him in his priestly robes, wheeling around the parish and how the kids must've loved him. I thought of his lifeless body, lying in the casket holding a rosery in his grey hand. I just made no sense to me. What a waste. I still mourn his death, 11 years later, but it led me to examine my own life. As a result, I started working with the teens at my church. Perhaps to try to help fill a void left in this world by Steve's passing or maybe as a calling to do something that I should have done a long time before. Working with the kids is one of the most precious things in my life and it all came from something as horrible as the death of a friend. So what's my point?
Well being Christian does not mean that we will not have horrible things happen to us. It does not mean that we will live happy lives of euphoria. It means that when the bad things come, we have Christ to help pull us through. He is there to cry with us... He is there to comfort us.
We have someone who has been through it all with us and that is one of the greatest blessings of being a Christian. I believe that good can come from anything. We just have to sometimes really search for it and have faith. Sometimes it really strikes us right away, sometimes it may take time, but it is always there. This is a lesson that was taught to me in the harshest of ways, but a belief that has been brought about in the gentlest of spirits.

Thank you Bill......a little bit later I may post a story about my brother that I posted once before.

But thank you for posting that. For myself and others.

Great post Bill, actually made me drop the sarcasm for a moment. Religion is a double edged sword, especially for those who believe.

Yes indeed. It can either beget truly great men or truly evil men.

Bill, whilst I certainly appreciate the sincere sentiments in your post, and empathize and sympathize with your grief, these same things happen to people of faith and non-faith alike. We non-believers tend to find comfort in friends, family, and fond rememberances of those we've lost, just like believers do. I suppose the one thing we don't do is try to 'justify' God's will or find meaning or purpose in a tragic death.

Just to clarify, I did not mean what I typed as an indictment of Bill's faith, but more as an affirmation that non-believers often have the same sort of spiritual emotions that believers have, especially in times of tragedy.

I hope you folks understand what I'm saying.

Jacob,
I did not take your responce as an assault on my beliefs. I would like to make sure that it is clear, as to what my main points were.

Here's my main points:
Many people believe that if they are a Christian, then nothing bad will happen to them. Unfortunately that is not true. Bad things happen to everyone. That is part of life. The thing is that we as Christians have Jesus as a comfort in our lives. A constant that will always be there... and a peace that comes with that belief.
The other point that I was trying to make was that I believe that something good can come out of any situation. You just have to look for it sometimes.

That might be true but usually the search for the good in something is just a way to avoid looking at the bad.

Believe me, I've looked at the bad and faced it head on. I've had to deal with things that I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy, so it's not a matter of that. If one focuses on only the bad in a situation, then it will only breed depression. If one tries to find the good and the lessons learned, then it will create positive growth.

This morning, 4 people got up and went to work at a bank about 30 miles from where I live. Shortly after the armored car left, 3 gunman entered the bank, ordered everyone to the floor, and proceeded to clean the place out. A silent alarm was tripped, causing the doors to lock and impeding the escape of the gunmen. The gunmen then executed all 4 of the bank employees and one of the customers. One customer was wounded and is in the hospital.

My question is- When fucked up things happen to good people, Christians explain it as "a testing of faith" or evil works of man. When fucked up things happen to bad people, it is chalked up to punishment or the "wrath of God". Why is there a different explanation for the same random acts?

Because they are not random.

[/QUOTE]Because they are not random.[/QB][/QUOTE]

Well that's a load of my mind. It's nice to know that someday God may alow my children's brains to be splattered all over a bank floor so my 'faith' can be properly tested. Sounds like a pretty stand up thing for a supreme being to do.

Darth, you seem to be making the mistake of condemning a God you supposedly don't believe in for actions you don't like.

Obviously, if God does exist, his idea of morality is somewhat different than ours, so it doesn't really make sense to not believe in Him based on that.

If He exists, He exists, and it really doesn't matter if you believe his actions to be good or not - He still exists. His morality in comparison to ours is a non-issue.

If He doesn't exist, then He doesn't exist. Christianity and other religions are incorrect. His morality in comparison to ours is a non-issue.

The only instance in which God's morality may come into play is if you DO believe in a God, but think he's a mad, evil God. As I understand it, this is a belief of the Gnostics, so it's not entirely unheard of. But it seems you're more in the "He doesn't exist or at least probably doesn't exist" camp than the "oh, yeah, He exists... and he's quite the asshole" camp.

I do believe in God, or at least in a creative force in the Universe from which all things came from and to which all things return. I guess my problem is in the thinking that God takes an active interest in what we do or do not belive in.

God is there, he's just got better things to worry about than us.

No, I think he's just using hypothetical situations where if you assume that God does exist, it raises all sorts of questions about his morals and ethics and reasoning, thus pointing out the person raising these issues' reasons for NOT believing in said God.

I've heard the argument a lot, "Oh, you blame God for this, so you must think he exists!" But that's not it. It's a rhetorical device. Like this one:

If God has a plan for everything...
And nothing can happen counter to God's plan...
Then the nun HAD to be raped, b/c that's the way God planned it...

However, if God DIDN'T plan for that to happen all along...
Then either God DOESN'T have a plan, which means we can't be sure that everything will work out all right after all (and by this I mean everything in the universe, not everything for each individual)...
Or God DOES have a plan, but things can happen that force him to change his plan, which implies that not everything is in his control, which again brings up the question of whether everything will work out at the end of time...

So God does have a plan, and as part of his plan the nun had to be raped and murdered. Which is a statement NOBODY wants to make.

I don't believe there is a plan. I don't believe there is a God. B/c if there were, he'd have to be pretty unpleasant.

I don't believe there is a God. B/c if there were, he'd have to be pretty unpleasant.

That's what I'm getting at. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I don't believe in God, either, but it has nothing to do with my own morality imposed upon the situation. I've simply seen nothing that convinces me a God is necessary to make the world work the way it does. He might exist, but it seems equally likely to me that he doesn't.

But I think the argument from morality will always fail, since the truly Christian can always find a way around it by saying that, yes, the nun DID have to be raped, because it served some greater purpose only known to Him. Our morality has no bearing on God's plans in the philosophies of some.

I get you. I'm just saying it doesn't seem on to me that we're accountable to God by standards to which he himself is not accountable.

This is not by any means my ONLY reason for disbelief. But it's one.