I fail to understand a God who would let this happen.. - Page 2

First off, you can reply automatically by hitting the weird icon on the right above the post you want to reply to. That'll give you the name and the full post.

Second, I wasn't trying to be sci-fi at all, and I'm not familiar enough with Einstein to say one way or the other about that.

I don't believe in time travel, specifically because of my theories on this, which are more philosophical and observational than scientific, admittedly.

I'm thinking time only has one path. In the past, there is really only one possibility for each instance of time, right? What has happened has happened.

I guess I don't have any reason to believe the future is any different. While it may seem to us that the future is wide open and full of possibilities, the future will inevitably end up in the past, and it will seem to be a single line.

So I'm thinking that it's pretty much plotted out, anyway, and, if it's not, it might as well be, since it will end up as a single line.

What makes it interesting is that we do NOT know the future and CANNOT, thus this line ahead of us seems like a set of possibilities. We make choices and they set us down this path. Though, like I said, it depends on if you consider a choice to actually be a "choice" when it only results in the inevitable, anyway. I'd say it is a 'choice,' as it's the only thing we can conceive of as a 'choice.' Tricky, I know.

In a nutshell, my advice is live your life like you've got free will, even if you don't believe you do.

Thanks for pointing out that icon...it's been driving me crazy.

There's a fairly well-known scifi idea that time is a continuous thread from the beginning to the end, and we're just travelling forward along it. Therefore everything that will happen has already happened, just that we haven't got their yet. (Time as the 4th dimension) That's what your idea sounded like to me. I think Einstein might have said something like it, but I can't be sure, not being an Einstein scholar either.

Oddly, it is the fact that I have this mindset exactly that makes me question the existence of God. How can I be so presumptuous as to claim to know why the universe operates as it does?

Not that I'm calling you Christian folks presumptuous, as you seem to truly believe you've felt the hand of God in some way and have found the proof (or at least elements of faith) you need. Well, I haven't, thus I think it would be foolhardy of me to not question everything.

This is what I was trying to say when I wrote the\/

The Hand of God is an amazing experience. It's that undeniable feeling that he is around you, loving you. It's like Christmas morning and your best birthday all wrapped up in one feeling.

It's hard to convence a non-believer that God is real and Jesus died for our sins so that we may have eternal happiness up in Heaven. I don't blame you for your cynical view of the world today, and I'm not looking down the proverbial nose at anybody. There are some Chirstians who have that holier-than-thou attitude, and that puts off a lot of people. I can't blame them really. I don't much care for people like that myself. But I will say this; accept Jesus as your one and only savior. It's that easy to get into the Kingdom of God.

Have you tried getting a loan for a house? My goodness, the paperwork alone will kill a man! It should be so easy as getting into Heaven!

Actually, I don't have what I consider a "cynical" view of the world today. I just have a cynical view of the idea that there is absolutely a God. On the other hand, I have a cynical view of the idea that we can know for sure there ISN'T one, much as I suspect you do. Having utter faith in the absence of God is equally presumptuous.

Easy for you to say. You've apparently felt the hand of God, while I just get the infomercial testimonials.

The fact that in this day and age we are still arguing about "GOD" makes no sense to me. I gave up on the notion of God a long time ago. I believe that we as human beings came up with the theory of a higher being that created the world as a means to explain that which was not explainable at the dawn of man. We needed a reason for man to be alive. We needed a reason for the sun to set, for the world to exist. In 2002 I can see no need for the notion of God. Still, when the world is right, God is good,and when it's bad, where was God? I cannot begin to comprehend the thought of an Omnipotent being watching over the entire world and doing nothing to help out. If you saw your children in trouble would you not help them? Of course you would. Logic tells me that there is no GOD. I don't see a need for one.

I concur with DaveB.

PS, omnibenevolent is a great word!

An excellent point, even with the sarcasm.

I have never felt nor seen the hand of God at work. Anywhere. Anytime. So why am I supposed to take people's word for it? If God just made him/her/itself known to me, I would never question again, and would be, for lack of a better phrase, an obediant and loyal servant.

But see, I already try to be the best human I can, given my limited mental and physical abilities. I don't mean to sound full of hubris here, but I try to be kind to everyone, and help where I can, and just generally treat other people the same way I'd like to be treated myself. I'm as human and fallible and self-absorbed as the next guy, but I try to be aware of my shortcomings and work on my many faults.

But I don't believe Jesus Christ is my, or anyone else's, saviour. God has never spoken to me. I've never witnessed a miracle. I doubt I ever will.

Perhaps I'm just not worthy of redemption. Perhaps I'm evil and don't even realize it. Perhaps I'm just being influenced by Satan.

But I don't believe it.

If God wants our worship and faith so badly, why doesn't He just reveal Himself and say "Look, you jerks, here I am, and I made all this great stuff for you ingrates, so you'd better start appreciating it and behave yourselves! Or else!"

I'd buy that for a dollar.

According to the Mormons, Jesus revealed himself to the Native Americans. I wonder if he ever tried chatting with the Dinosaurs?

I think the T-Rex was a little before J.C.'s time...

I still want to know what he wants with a starship...

And besides, I think it's helpfull to believe in a higher being. It takes some of pressure off of everyday life. And for me it's either Jesus or the Time Cube guy.

And I sure as hell ain't buying into that...

I try my hardest to stay out of this forum, but thought I'd interject something here...

That's exactly the reason you've never witnessed a miracle, and more than likely the reason you may not ever. I, personally, have witnessed far too many miracles in my life to count, and they are ALL due to the fact that I have accepted Jesus into my life.

<preaching>
You are wrong. You are worthy, and would be redeemed if you would open your heart to the Lord.
</preaching>

This argument's always bugged me. What made you decide to accept Jesus into your life in the first place if you had no prior reason to (i.e. you witnessed no miracles to prove the veracity of the bible)?

Assuming your upbringing was probably Christian, don't you think you were predisposed to attribute amazing things to Jesus, whereas someone who was raised differently would attribute the same miraculous events to the respective saviors, messiahs, gods, etc. in his/her religion?

Interesting thoughts, sidey, and I see where you're coming from with the idea that miracles don't have to be grand and that faith in God shouldn't disappear when things don't go your way. Even to me, a non-believer, that seems like the only way to really characterize faith, in not just God, but in anything. You don't give up on a marriage, for instance, if you have a bad week.

But in the comment above, you mention prayer, and you must realize that to those of us who don't believe in God, the idea of praying to Him so that he will make himself known to us seems as odd to us as the idea that you should pray to Zeus so that he should make himself known to you probably seems to you.

Because it seems there are many options for us non-believers, such as Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc., should we randomly pray in all of these manners until one faith starts to yield small miracles? And how will we know which prayers are working? And here's a thought: what if they all start yielding small miracles? Should we just pick the faith with the best miracles?

IMHO,

There are three parts to any religious belief:

1. Evidence
2. Philosophy
3. Faith

You have to start with evidence. After all, there are tons of religions, many with dissimilar beliefs or tenets. What makes one religion better (or more likely to be correct) than another? You need evidence. It's not enough to say "I believe this" or "I felt this." Just because you believe or feel something doesn't make it real or true... and what we're looking for is reality, not fantasy. I mean, who wouldn't want to believe that everyone goes to Heaven and in Heaven the only thing to do is have incredible mind-blowing sex. Sounds good to me, but I can't find any evidence to support that theorem. But if someone wanted to believe that, they could go around saying that that's what Heaven was like, and maybe they would begin to really believe it. So, you have to start with evidence. What makes your beliefs valid, in relation to the world?

Next is philosophy. Let's say you see some credible evidence that makes you interested in a particular belief. Then you have to ask yourself, "Does this philosophy make sense?" "Can this be real, or is it illogical?" "Does this fit with the portrait of the world that we see every day?" If the underlying philosophy fails, then you are left with evidence that will not move you to look for more. If it works for you, then you may think you are a believer... however, there is one huge step that needs to be taken. (All philosophy starts with religion i. e. the question of God's existence. I find that a person's philosophy is most often altered when presented with credible evidence, as it should be.)

Faith. The big step. The grand entrance to the ball. Can a person believe what they have come to believe? It's the biggest step, the most important step... it's also somewhat indescribable. Regardless, we've all seen it, either in ourselves or others.

The Apostle Paul saw Christianity as an argument. It wasn't enough to say "I believe in God because of my personal experience" (though he used that too). Instead, he saw it as a combination of evidence (Jesus’ life), philosophy (what God is, what God does, what the world is, what has God done for the world), and faith (take that last step). You need all three to be a whole believer.

Religions don't rise and fall based on faith. Lots of people have faith, and faith is the most important. But, without an underlying knowledge and understanding of the evidence and the requisite philosophy, faith can seem hollow to others, if not to yourself.

In answer to Dave's question, if you(general) don't know what you believe or what to believe then by all means explore. Just remember that although faith is the most important element, you must have evidence and philosophy to back it up.IMO.

Well put, Burke.

Since only faith (or at least philosophy) should lead to prayer, evidence must precede philosophy and/or faith, in my opinion.

Suggesting one start with prayer so that philosophy can be confirmed and faith established seems backwards to me.

This may seem a non-sequitar, but, sidey, do you believe in coincidence? You seem to have made your decision on what a non-believer might consider just that (the mention of Melchizedek in the sermon and the comparison to Jesus).

Over lunch, I was reading Greil Marcus' Lipstick Traces, in which he makes all sorts of random connections between punk rock and various events and people in history. In one section, he manages to connect Johnny (Rotten) Lydon with John of Leyden, a Dutch heretic who, for a time, was 'king' of Munster, Germany. Marcus even includes the fact that a biographer of Leyden was also the father of Nik Cohn, a rock journalist whose theories are also applied directly to punk by Marcus. Of course, Marcus appreciates the connections, but still seems to dismiss them as happy coincidences.

Point being that connections, while sometimes seemingly the work of an unknown power, may be where you want them to be sometimes.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ballistic: Ego vs. Sever:
[QB]I, personally, have witnessed far too many miracles in my life to count, and they are ALL due to the fact that I have accepted Jesus into my life.[QUOTE][qb]Me to, but they were way better than any of JCs classics, me and my wife were in Vegas see, and there were tigers on stage vanishing and re-appearing all over the damn place!

It depends what kind of a prayer it is. If someone is beginning their study or journey, I don't see a problem with a prayer that asks "God, if there is a God, please reveal yourself." That's not a faithful prayer in that the person making the prayer has no faith. They're just saying point me in the right direction, if there is one... without a real assumption of anything.

Praying for DVD's and seeing when or if they arrive might not be the best way to start.

Well, in that case, I'm truly damned, since there were plenty of times as a child when I would do just that with utmost sincerity. No signs. I have a pretty good eye, too, so I doubt I missed something subtle back then.

And I'm sure the response to this will be that I didn't ask this with my heart wide open, etc., but wouldn't that be considered "faith" which is exactly what I was trying to establish?

It's like finding one of those magic eye posters, but the directions for using it are actually contained within the poster itself, thus unreadable to one who doesn't know how to use it to begin with. Very chicken vs. egg...

I, too, try to stay out of this forum, and I fear I am going to piss a few of you off with this post, but, oh, well.

First of all, I was raised a Catholic. Catholic school, CCD, mass twice a week, confession once a week.

Secondly, this crime sickens me. SICKENS me.

I find that as I get older, my faith has declined. Lets face it folks, some of us have had some pretty awful stuff happen to us. I have seen loved ones hurt (even one murdered) and I find it hard to believe that "it's all part of a divine plan".

Having said that, I still believe in God. I still pray, although I have my doubts.

There is a song called "Dear God", by XTC in which the lyrics express the way I feel pretty clearly.

Dear God,
Hope you got the letter and
I pray you can make it better down here.
I don't mean a big reduction in the price of beer
But all the people that you made in your image,
See them starving on their feet
'Cause they don't get enough to eat
From God
I can't believe in you.

Dear God,
Sorry to disturb you, but
I feel that I should be heard loud and clear.
We all need a big reduction in the amount of tears
And all the people that you made in your image,
See them fighting in the street
'Cause they can't make opinions meet
About God,
I can't believe in you.

Did you make disease, and the diamond blue?
Did you make mankind after we made you?
And the devil too?!

Dear God,
Don't know if you noticed, but...
Your name is on a lot of quotes in this book,
Us crazy humans wrote it, you should take a look,
And all the people that you made in your image,
Still believing that junk is true
Well I know it ain't, and so do you

Dear God,
I can't believe in...
I don't believe in...

I won't believe in heaven and hell.
No saints, no sinners, no devil as well.
No pearly gates, no thorny crown.
You're always letting us humans down.
The wars you bring, the babes you drown.
Those lost at sea and never found,
And it's the same the whole world 'round.
The hurt I see helps to compound
That Father, Son and Holy Ghost
Is just somebody's unholy hoax
And if you're up there you'd perceive
That my heart's here upon my sleeve.
If there's one thing I don't believe in.....

It's you.....
Dear God.

Pretty heavy stuff.

What if you are wrong, what then? There is know guarantee.

i long for the day when God will sit us all down and tell us how wrong and way off-base we all were.

What then? Does he pat himself on the back for being so clever and teaching us real good?

<--smilies all around, as well as the one on top of this post

I think he points and laughs, "you silly fucks, I don't care what you do, it was like watching the fucking TV with you silly bastards." God always gets the last laugh, I hate that.

God is so 20th-Century for using a TV analogy. He needs to try the internet. It's more interactive. He should join in this discussion.

I like the title of this thread in the Summaries page:
"I fail to understand a God..."

Pretty much sums it all up.

As far as I know, God still uses a VCR, to see movies! At least thats what my grandma told me.

Otis, you have to admit, even God would get tired of this extended metaphor of a joke by now.

He did when He knew you guys would be doing this

True, true, I just enjoy this forum, and since no new topics have come up in a while, I have been stretching to keep this one alive.

There are two types of people in this world...

The end.

Male and Female?

Jew and Gentile?

Bert and Ernie?

My problem is a little different, I think. I read most of what's been posted in this thread and haven't seen anyone bring this up, so...

I stopped believing about three months ago. I grew up my entire life believing in God and that, no matter what, everything was ok. Everything, no matter how bad it got, would be fixed by that great, big, mystical, invisible, feel-good hand from the sky. That everyone, no matter where in the world they were, from Mozambique to Paraguay to Viet Nam, would be introduced to God, our Father who loves us so much he gave up his son for crucifixtion, at one point in their lives. Where they went from that one point would determine whether they spent eternity with loving, happy people or wind up drowning in a boiling lake of fire and glass and darkness for ever and ever, Amen.

And I believed all that whole-heartedly.

No particular thing has happened to break my faith, but somewhere, at some moment while I was sleeping, a switch flipped, a light burned out, a wheel fell off or something... But something happened and I don't believe anymore.

It could've been a picture I saw of a man skydiving out of a crumbling Twin Tower. Now, I don't hang my faithlessness on 9-11 as some Reactionary Political Movement Against God (RPMAG, for future use), as it wasn't the whole event, but the one image that showed me just how horrible something can be.

It could've been that my lack of faith in people caught up to my faith in God. I have noticed that a lot of people are killed over someone else's beliefs, though. When you think about it, the results of an act performed in the name of God can bring up several words all at once (with different implications), depending on who you are: mission, genocide, pilgrimage, terrorism, good deed, murder...

But, I think it may be that my reasoning for a belief system failed me. "I believe in God, because..."

"...Well, Christianity is the only religion that says 'you go to Hell if you believe in something else.' By that reasoning, 'better safe than sorry!'" So, now, it's not that I feel any "presence," it's just that I'm covering my own spiritual ass? I can't live like that. That is fake. That misses the entire point of believing.

"I just do." Ok. Now, I just don't. Answers from myself as a child don't hold up so well today.

I think all of this led me to the conclusion that I had to choose God for myself, based on my adult judgement skills. Knowing all the passwords and talking to all the right people and showing up at his clubhouse for meetings does not mean entry to His Kingdom and it does not satisfy me.

But when I get right down to it, the cause doesn't matter at all. Has next to nothing to do with anything. What matters is what I've come up with about myself: I don't know if I believe in God or not.

If I don't believe in God:

- I feel better equipped to deal with the world knowing that whatever happens to me, I have to take care of myself. Somebody looking after me makes me cocky and stupid.

- I feel better doing what I do, loving who I love, and thinking thoughts I have minimal control over because it means I don't feel anyone is judging me. "We're born into sin?" Does that seem fair to you? If my daddy continually told me that I was bad and wrong from the moment I was born (but he also still loves me, undeserving as I am), I would feel miserable and hate myself to the point of abuse. That would continue until I either hated and rejected him or killed myself in shame and pain. This whole, "you're wrong and dirty because of your thoughts and sins" thing frustrates me because I can't control my feelings or thoughts. I can fight them for a while, maybe, but if the Creator thinks I'm bad from the moment I came into being and every impulse thought I've had since and there's nothing I can do to stop being bad ...FUCK HIM.

In case you're wondering, I typed an impulse thought about a sentence ago.

- I can live my life without the constant, reckless fear of an oncoming seven years of Mad Max-on-crack-style apocalypse happening. I won't worry about my family and friends being taken to a guillotine, raped, or both because they refuse to have a bar code stamped on the back of their head, or whatever sci-fi/horror nonsense is all the rage those days.

- I can, without fear, bring my own children into this world without worrying if they are going to grow up to be adults as religiously confused as their father in said apocalypse.

- I don't have to worry about Hell and can instead look forward to the mystery of the afterlife. All people, good or bad, regardless of religious beliefs, may have the same experience...

- I can look around at this shitty world and think, "Yeah, the bad outweighs the good, but at least I know that we're on our own."

Now...If I do believe in God:

- I'm going to Hell. No way around it, right? I've stopped asking for forgiveness for my thoughts, literary tastes, and huge collection of porn (sex is my biggest vice). No forgiveness asked, none given. And this very thread, even the thinking behind it, it all adds up to me turning my back on God, right? Mortal sin, right? Irredeemable, yes? So, all I can do is try to enjoy my life until God fires up that big 'ol gas grille.

- I must be wrong. If He exists, then all of my viewpoints about judgement are irrelevent. He is perfect, therefore, His judgement is perfect. I claim I am imperfect, yes, but He is the only scale to judge by, so...

- We've all got a rough seven years coming somewhere down the road. Watch for the mass simultaneous Christian dissappearance. That is when I'm getting fucked up on vodka. Hope you can't make it by then.

- I know that people are the reason everything is liquid crap, but if I see a crazy old homeless man drowning, I'm going to save him, toss him a line, something. I feel bitter that our lifeguard is morbidly watching, saying, "you fell in, you climb out."

I'm worn out. But I think I've found my answer.

I HOPE most other Christians would agree with me that this statement is VERY far from the truth. I'm not even sure where you came up with it.
Peter turned his back on his Savior 3 times, even after having been TOLD that he would, yet he did nothing to change it. Maybe he couldn't. The fact is, Peter's sin of denying Jesus/God does not exclude him from the Kingdom. Theologically speaking, God's grace is sometimes called "irresistable grace." This means that once you choose God, and accept His grace and the sacrifice that Jesus Christ made for all of God's people, it can't be undone. the switch can't be unflipped. One of the cornerstones of the Christian faith is found in Jesus' simultaneous existence as both God and Man, both Lamb and Shepherd. God never loses a lamb from his flock. What you said in your post, you "don't know" if you believe is perfectly fine. It's a common struggle. But if you really believed it once, and if you were baptised, then by the conventions of the faith, you cannot be lost to God. He will not separate you from Him.
I know this from experience. I stopped believing, didn't know WHAT I believed for many years. But I came back, because the seed was already planted.

I don't know if that pisses you off, or if it may give you some hope or maybe a new direction, but I believe most any Christian would tell you the same. At least he ought to, because Jesus himself made this claim to his disciples and to his followers.

I appreciate the knowledge, actually.

And to make sure I'm not misunderstood, I do not hate the followers or believers. They've got nothing to do with this situation between me and God (most of the time) wink

To be perfectly honest, the misunderstanding you point out, well...I don't want to blame my mother for raising me wrong on misquotes from the Bible, but...Just this once...

Thoughts on the rest of the post?

It eventually got to the point of just me vs. religion (which I still oppose in its extremes), but now it's just God.

And hey, if people can't take someone else's opinion without getting pissed off, fuck em. This is your message board, too.

DJEvil, that's a very personal and thoughtful post. Thank you for sharing.

I share your feelings and mentality about God. I personally have lost faith because I cannot accept the "concept" of a God who judges a specific creation: Human beings and not other lifeforms He had also created.

I've also lost my belief because many of His constituents deem me evil. I do not want to associate myself with a religion that has already preconceived judgments and opinions on who I truly am.

And with those reasons, I continued to reflect on whether there was a God. Currently, I don't believe He exists. If there is a God, I don't think He is a judgmental God. He would be someone who welcomes everyone, regardless of who you were in your mortal life.

I guess I'd rather be comforted to know that there is no after-life. It makes living in this world even more meaningful. You make the best out of your life and just await death. I just don't want to grasp the idea of an eternal soul living in eternal bliss. Call me human, but I don't see a point to that. I don't see the reason for even living a life that way.

I embrace my life as is. It may not be the life I actually prefer, but it's a life that I have been blessed with and strive to make the best out of. If there's any religion I will worship, it will be the religion of humanity. We're all in this together. We live, we laugh, we cry, then we die.

I think this is also a pretty big fallacy. Nothing wrong with it, but I feel the need to clarify.

Yes, original sin is a difficult thing to wrangle. But, it's there. However,just because you have sin and I have sin, that does not erase the image of GOd that we bear, it's just a distortion of it. In other words, God NEVER retracted His statement that we are "very good."
It's hard for me to understand how people arrive at some of their feelings about religion and especially Christianity sometimes. Being a CHristian doesn't make anyone a superhero. Everyone struggles with sin, Christian or not. Sin does not damn you. It's the welcoming of sin into your heart and mind, rather than Jesus Christ that damns you. Even then, there is still always repentence. Everyone is "bad" as you put it. The difference is how much you strive not to be.

Crap. Stupid no edit.

Anyway, to your first point, God did/does judge His other creations. He cursed the serpent to crawl on its belly for the rest of eternity. In the garden, there was no death, so none of the animals ate each other. Now the laws of nature are largely based on the predator/prey model. It may not seem like judgment but it is. God gave us a perfect situation to live in, animals and humans, and we screwed it. So He made it harder on us. I think that's fair. It really really sucks, but I think it's fair.

Your second point: Christians who make non-believers or even different believers feel hated and overly sinful and damned and not good enough and all that are just plain and simple BAD Christians. They know ZERO abut the character of Jesus Christ, whom they claim to and are supposed to emulate in the execution of their lives and in the actions of their ministry. Those kind of people simply don't know where it's at. Don't let them ruin it for you. There are plenty in the Christian community who are welcoming and warm and accepting of different people, just like God is, and just like Jesus is.

To clarify that God is a loving, welcoming, accepting God, consider this point. Jesus was God's Son, sent to Earth to redeem God's people. Jesus, at the same, was and is, God himself. Doctrine of the Trinity and whatnot. Jesus Christ spoke only the message of his Father. He didn't make up all that stuff off the top of his head. Whatever Jesus communicated to Israel, God communicated to Jesus first.
Therefore, the character of God HAS to be at least similar to the character of Jesus Christ. There are differences of course, but I think the reasoning holds.

[quote]El' Nervousio Xtian:
Yeah I will agree to some extent, but the leaders have always been corrupt, I would like to think that it is the young, ideological priest at the slightly run down corner church that keeps people coming back.

And though I do not know the future I will tell you that I have a healthy view of money and such and I don't plan on being consumed by it.

Don't know why I say that here or for what reason but it sounds right.