Fascinating Archeological Find - Page 2

I rember being a kid and looking at a Hustler magazine. One of thde cartoons was Mary and Joseph leaving the gyno and Joseph is saying, "All I'm saying is that you're pregnant and I ain't been getting no pussy."
Shit fire, I like me some Hustler magazine.

It's a fake apparently.

<a href="http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030618/sc_nm/religion_israel_jesus_dc_4" target="_blank">http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030618/sc_nm/religion_israel_jesus_dc_4</a>

Not surprising but I'd be lying if I said it wasn't disappointing.

I could have told you guys that months ago...

No need to be snide about it.

wink

Of course, they want everyone to believe it's fake. I've got visions of some anonymous government guy wheeling it on a trolley into a massive secret warehouse, to put it in storage next to the Ark of the Covenant.

Dan, you have too much faith in movies.

English Spelling: Jesus, Son of David.

He's referring to the historical Jesus. He thinks that forming an opinon about Jesus using the scriptures is only valid if that opinion agrees with his worldview. Anything else requires faith, something that one of Heinlein's characters called "intellectual laziness".

What Heinlein (neither a scientist, historian, nor theologian) has to do with this I still don't know.

Simple. He made one of his fictional characters say a catchphrase that Devin can use over and over to refute us believers.

You back that up with the Bible and we're square Cochise. According to my Bible she had other children and there's no mention of her as the "Queen of Heaven". She is just an ordinary woman picked for an extraordinary task. No different from Elijah, David, Rahab, Sarah or any other of the vessels God used.

If you agree that Mary had only one son, then Joseph had multiple wives that were never mentioned. Not unusual as poligamy and having mistresses is pretty common in the bible, though I don't know if it was still practiced at the time.

Matthew 12:46-50
While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Luke 8:20-21
And it was told him by certain which said, Thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to see thee.
And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.

Mark 6:3
Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

Seems pretty clear it was refering to actual brothers (and sisters), to make the point of how his followers were considered brothers rather than actual family relations.

People claiming to see stuff is not exactly the best of evidence. How many people who claim to see things really just need a good doctor? How many killers say they were told to do it by god? When the visions are benevolent and go along with a person's own belief there are more likely to be accepted as revelations, when they are malicious or claim things we don't believe in they are discounted as delusions.

And the claims of miracles associated with the ones you mention are exadurated at best

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sidey22:
<strong>Scott.. see that's where the Catholic and many of the other Christian faiths part ways..</strong>

Yup.

<strong>Catholic believe in the concept of tradition.. I mean look at it this way.. If Christ dying and raising and ascent into Heaven is the establishment of the Kingdom of God then that was just the beginning of the story in many ways.</strong>

Of course it is only the beginning. But to arrive where you are (vis a vis the brother thing) requires that you elevate your tradition above a plain reading of the scripture. Why assume that Mary remained a virgin adn never had any children when we are told otherwise?

<strong>If we really wish to dicuss this we can, but the doctrine is based on revelations (private and otherwise) and appriations such as Fatima, Lourdes, Guadalupe and others.</strong>

So do those "revelations" supplant Scripture?

<strong>But if it must come from the Bible in order to be accepted then Mary is the women clothed with the Sun as described in Revelation.</strong>

What does she (provided it is in fact Mary) have to do with Mary remaining pure? What would the purpose be in it. Sex is certainly not bad and is indicated as a good thing between husband and wife.

<strong>I look to Mary as the example on how to serve Christ, how to live a simple, holy existance in this life while trusting in God's mercy and love both in this life and the next.</strong>

Where in the Bible does Mary show you how to do this other than in Luke 1?

except that there are no miracles and cures at Lourdes. There was one survey I heard of that showed the survival rate of people going to Lourdes was lower than similar patients who didn't go. I believe that there are only 6 recoveries that are officially considered miracles associated with Lourdes, out of the millions who go there. And quite honestly that falls well within the chances of spontaneous remision. Can get into a lot more detail later tonight if you like.

Is it a fact? I've seen other claims of people saying things they "couldn't have known", such as talking about past lives, psychics mentioning details of crimes, etc. Closer examination usually shows it to be more story than fact, that they either did not say the things attributed to them, that they did have such information beforehand, or what was said was twisted to fit the facts.

When did I ever say anything about the 'message' being wrong? I'm just saying that the claims of visions and miracles are not likely to be true.

I noticed you did not reply to the quotations showing Jesus as having brothers and sisters. Since you believe Mary stayed a virgin, then do you believe Joseph had other wives/mistresses?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sidey22:
<strong>I'll take the numerous miracles and cures at Lourdes as good evidence of something more than just tourists happening there.</strong>

Not all healing miracles are evidence of God at work.

<strong>I'll take the fact that a little girl, who could barely read and write tells the Bishop to build a church and that Mary is the "Immaculate Conception" something that the Vatican approved only 2 (I think) years before and was not being taught to the children. She couldn't even pronouce it correctly but yet she communciated it to the Bishop.</strong>

Is this a fact?

<strong>Frankly I believe she as appeared her on earth and believe what she has stated regarding her role and God's love and mercy.</strong>

What is her role?

<strong>There is nothing in her messages that have conflicted with Jesus' teachings but rather she's told the obvious that this world is walking away from God and not doing as Jesus commanded us to do.</strong>

And what is it that Jesus commanded us to do? Love God and love our neighbor. Why does Mary need ot come to Earth adn tell us something Christ already did?

<strong>Regaring her life in the bible I notice her submitting to the ritual of purficiation and the presentation as in Luke's Gospel.. If Christ is God, why does she have to bother? For the same reason Jesus is Baptized by John in the Jordan, not to re-write the whole book but rather to fulfill God's wishes and plans.</strong>

Did you also notice her when she believed her son to be crazy and tried to drag him home? She is in no way perfect or blameless adn nowhere does the Bible say she is.

<strong>I take also her sharing in the suffering of the Passion, having to watch her Son, Jesus Christ die for our sins.. to be humiliated, scorned, beaten etc knowing that He is the Son of the Most High.</strong>

John shared in it too.

<strong>If you take a look at her messages (and before you just say it's wrong, I suggest you do) you'll notice the following common themes..

- Belief in the Blessed Sacrament, and the Eucharistic celebration of the Mass.
- Returning to the Sacrament of Penance, Confession or what ever you'd like to call it.
- Pray, pray pray.
- Don't fall into the traps of this world (impurity, violence, greed, etc)

What's so counter productive to the Gospel in any of those things?</strong>

Nothing in those themes is counterproductive. What is counterproductive is looking toward her for an intercession she can't grant and praying to her for help she can't give.

Just so you know I'm not trying ot start a fight adn I do believe that some of my Catholic brethren are indeed saved. But some of them are in danger of heresy.