Does thought = Sin?

According to Christ (and by extension myself) absolutely.

And Yae Su, what do you mean that you don't believe in sin?

Well, Jesus said that if you lust your neighbor's wife, you've already sinned in your mind without commiting the act.

What I *think* what He meant was the act of entertaining the thought actually leads to materializing your thought.

I don't think he meant just looking at some random girl in a mall with a short tight skirt and sexy stockings and think of "banging the girl" is a sin. Maybe a momentary fantasy at best.

BTW, sin is seperation from God. Every act that is a result of your seperation from God is called SIN.

think of sex, especially if you ain't getting any is not a sin. Not getting it is a sin though.

Without temptation, there is no grace;

in other words, if you don't have sinful thoughts, there is no urge to sin, thus the resistance to temptation does not exist. And without the temptation to do bad things, is one really living the "holy" life?

Exactly. We once had this talk in one of my college English classes about one of the knights of the round table. There was one knight (was it Galahad?) who was thought of as the most pure of them all, as he lived in the woods, away from the rest of humanity and temptation.

I think the majority of the class agreed this was sort of cheating. It seems it would be more virtuous to live in a world with temptation and not give in to them than to live in ignorance of those temptations.

Screw this guy.

Gimme Gawain who's out there getting tempted left and right and still sticking to his guns. That shows a lot more fortitude.

I take Christ's words quite literally in the sense that even thinking of a sin is in and of itself sin.

That's a pretty harsh statement. Didn't Jesus himself think of naughty things (that whole experience in the desert)? If God made us who were are, then he also gave us feelings of lust, jealosy & all sorts of other 'sinful' notions. We can't control our thoughts, we can control whether or not we go through with them.

That's a pretty harsh statement. Didn't Jesus himself think of naughty things (that whole experience in the desert)? If God made us who were are, then he also gave us feelings of lust, jealosy & all sorts of other 'sinful' notions. We can't control our thoughts, we can control whether or not we go through with them.

I assume you are talking about the time in the desert where Satan tried to tempt him and failed, right? You can be tempted to have lustful thoughts and not have them.

And you are right, we can't stop sinning. That's the whole point of Christianity. We are incapable of not sinning and thus need a savior. Were it possible for us not to have lustful, murderous, or covetous thoughts (which are sins IMO and usually but don't always lead to some sort of action) then we would not ned a savior.

How can you be tempted & not have them? If you are thinking about lustful things, how are you not thinking about lustful things? In essence, if Jesus never thought about the temptations that Satan was offering, how did he know he was being tempted in the first place? If Satan conjurs into Jesus' mind two women making beautiful love, how is he not thinking about it?

But, I can see vaguely what you are getting at, and the impression I get is that you are saying that God wants us to think these things so that we will have the need for a savior.

It is a question of cause and effect. Jesus was brought to save us, cuz God was none to pleased about the way things were going. But what you are saying is that was always the plan. God created us to be sinners (or at least capable of sinful thoughts & actions) so that we would need to be redeemed. Which would eliminate his being pissed off (and forced to send his son to redeem us) in the first place, because that was his plan the whole time.

I know that sounds rather confusing, but I'm confused myself.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Guttenberg Fan Club:
<strong>How can you be tempted & not have them? If you are thinking about lustful things, how are you not thinking about lustful things? In essence, if Jesus never thought about the temptations that Satan was offering, how did he know he was being tempted in the first place? If Satan conjurs into Jesus' mind two women making beautiful love, how is he not thinking about it?</strong>

I think you have a mis-understanding of the word tempt used in the temptation of Christ. It means to prove, test, thoroughly. Satan offered Him opportunities to use His power. That was a temptation. Christ did not for an instant think about doing it. He answered with scripture. Satan couldn't conjure anything into Jesus' mind (again my opinion). A test is still a test even whe nyou know all of the answers. Christ did express doubt, anger, and a desire to have a burden taken from him (none of which are sins) but at know time did he express that he wanted someone dead or harmed and at no time did he contemplate sexual sin (that would be sin).

<strong>But, I can see vaguely what you are getting at, and the impression I get is that you are saying that God wants us to think these things so that we will have the need for a savior.</strong>

No. God doesn't want us to think of these things, we simply do. It is our nature. Thus we need a savior. God does not want us to sin and it grieves Him when we do.

<strong>It is a question of cause and effect. Jesus was brought to save us, cuz God was none to pleased about the way things were going. But what you are saying is that was always the plan. God created us to be sinners (or at least capable of sinful thoughts & actions) so that we would need to be redeemed. Which would eliminate his being pissed off (and forced to send his son to redeem us) in the first place, because that was his plan the whole time.

I know that sounds rather confusing, but I'm confused myself.</strong>

Let me see if I can break it down. God created Adam with free will, the ability to choose not to sin. Adam sinned and subsequently sin entered the world. To me that means since Adam was our first representative and he sinned, we can certainly do no less. God knew that would happen and offers Christ's sacrifice as atonement for our sins, but we must enter a covenant with Him to recieve that atonement. I don't know about God being pissed off. It's just that sin is antithetical to God and without the atonement of CHrist we would not be able to enter his presence.

All due respect to your beliefs Scott, but if you look at some of the dogma put forth by the Christian faith, one might begin to think God thoroughly enjoys stacking the deck against humanity....

Adam is our first representative; he screws the pooch, so ALL humanity is fucked - at least those who were unfortunate enough to be born BEFORE Christ appeared (except those saints who had foreknowledge of Christ through prophecy ), or those unfortunate enough to not have contact with a Christian missionary before they die.

Anway, as a result of the fall, we have sinful thoughts; and while we may not act on these thoughts (which can be something as basic as the urge to have sex), they are still a SIN. Thus, the only way to salvation is to worship Jesus, and neither resisting temptation nor living a good, just, and productive life are really factors in the least.

Personally, I don't buy it; my conception of God tends to be a bit more ethereal and far less involved and petty.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by YaeSu:
<strong>I think it was explained best with this statement: "sin is seperation from God." You are never seperated from God, no matter how convinced of that you are. You are apart of him, everything you do involves him.</strong>

Why do you believe his?

<strong>Oh, and when I say "him" it's just so people understand. Know that I believe Sex does not exist on the other side. There is no reason for the male or female gender on the otherside.</strong>

Why not?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chavez:
<strong>All due respect to your beliefs Scott, but if you look at some of the dogma put forth by the Christian faith, one might begin to think God thoroughly enjoys stacking the deck against humanity.... </strong>

It can certainly seem that way. Let's look at the doctrine's you mentioned in light of my understanding.

<strong>Adam is our first representative; he screws the pooch, so ALL humanity is fucked - at least those who were unfortunate enough to be born BEFORE Christ appeared (except those saints who had foreknowledge of Christ through prophecy ), or those unfortunate enough to not have contact with a Christian missionary before they die.</strong>

There seems to be some indication that God has a plan of redemption for both those who were born before Christ and those never hearing the message. We can discuss that further if you like.

<strong>Anway, as a result of the fall, we have sinful thoughts; and while we may not act on these thoughts (which can be something as basic as the urge to have sex), they are still a SIN. Thus, the only way to salvation is to worship Jesus, and neither resisting temptation nor living a good, just, and productive life are really factors in the least.</strong>

Actually I don't worship Jesus. I worship God the Father. Jesus is like a brother to me. THe urge to have sex is natural and not a sin. Lusting a woman who is not your wife is a sin. That's not a ticket to Hell that's just the way it is. As for living a good just and productive life, who's standards are you using? Have you ever lied, stolen, or hurt someone? Or even thought about doing these things? I've done all three (six if you count thoughts and acts seperately). I am a sinner. Just trying to get across that in that regard we are no different.

<strong>Personally, I don't buy it; my conception of God tends to be a bit more ethereal and far less involved and petty.</strong>

What is petty about the Christian's view of God? He is just, holy, righteous, gracious, loving, and a lot of other things we can't begin to understand. But petty? And where does your idea of God come from?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by YaeSu:
<strong>"I have felt his presence, my master." -Darth Vader wink
Actually I always do, whether I am bad or good.</strong>

You always do what?

<strong>Genders are created for mammal life to reproduce. You remember all the lives you have had once you get to the other side. But you reflect back to earth what those whom may have known you would relate too. It's so we will understand, not because that's the way it is. We are greeted by those we knew, they reflect what we remember about them. Because we recognize it. I think it takes a little time for us to readjust to the otherside. The human reality is a strong one. Just depends on what kind of life we had. Children would adapt faster than an adult, because of life expierences. But you have all the time you could want. wink </strong>

OK I'm a little confused. You believe in reincarnation but you also believe we have all the time we want on this otherside? I'm really trying to understand here. I'm a student of faiths. Could you explain this further and let me know where you got your beliefs. I'm sensing what I call Chinese Menu religion (Pick one from Column A, two from Column B). No offense intended. I guess everyone picks their Theology or lack thereof from a variety of sources. All of mine happen to be mainstream Christianity.

As far as I'm concerned, the trully moral man is the one who is tempted by sin and decides against committing it. The man who is never thinking sinfully is not pure, he's just an idiot. He commits no sin because he is hardwired that way, not because he doesn't want to.

Jesus was tempted by sin and never did. What you say makes no sense to me. "The man who is tempted by sin and does not sin is moral." and yet "The man who is never thinking sinfully is not pure". Don't you see where that contradicts?

Well first of all you would have to be Catholic to believe in a mortal sin. And if you are Catholic then you know that there can be absolution for mortal sin. So, no problem. I don't believe that God makes a distinction or at least if He does it does not affect salvation.

I would consider contemplating suicide sinful. However if you are then that's the least of your concerns. Also I believe that if a CHristian were to commit suicide then they would be forgiven. God's grace covers all sins, not just a multitude.

And Yae Su, thanks for your explanation. Obviously we disagree on everything you said, but variety is the spice of life.

Well we agree on this bit:

I would be interested in hearing about that; my understanding was that the doctrine was "no Jesus, no salvation"; which then instituted some dogmatical wrangling which daunts in its audaciousness - that the saints before Christ were given foreknowledge of his coming by prophecy, thus THEY were saved, but the others who lived in those ~2400 yrs before Christ's arrival were damned.

I'm not saying I live a good and productive life; I'm just sayin'.... wink

But I will go on record as saying that if you're looking for some rules on how to live a good life, you could do far worse than following the basics of the NT, or the Golden Rule and the Commandments.

Well, I'm American, so obviously I grew up with a tremendous Christian (Catholic, mostly) influence; and my conception, which I come by based on what I see in the world, is not of a particular just, righteous, loving, etc God; more of an absentee father, if God even exists. I do not consider myself spiritual in the least, but if I did, I would probably tend more towards a Buddhist view - that if there is a God, he is inconceivable, and not manifested in a book, or a building, or a symbol, but is present in everything; and the best way to worship him is not so much by prayer, etc but by treating everything as holy and having respect for the entire world around you. Which actually seems to be in line with your conception of Christianity, but your ideas tend to be different from those of most Christians I run into.

"Petty" may perhaps be a poor word choice for God; but as God is "interpreted" for we poor masses by priests and the like, sometimes I find the interpretations to be of a petty, needy God than that of a loving, gracious all-powerful entity.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chavez:
<strong>I would be interested in hearing about that; my understanding was that the doctrine was "no Jesus, no salvation"; which then instituted some dogmatical wrangling which daunts in its audaciousness - that the saints before Christ were given foreknowledge of his coming by prophecy, thus THEY were saved, but the others who lived in those ~2400 yrs before Christ's arrival were damned.</strong>

I will dig up the appropriate Scripture. The plan of Salvation for the Israelites was to follow the Law and had nothing to do with Christ.


<strong>But I will go on record as saying that if you're looking for some rules on how to live a good life, you could do far worse than following the basics of the NT, or the Golden Rule and the Commandments.</strong>

True enough. Pretty high bar to set for sure.

<strong>Well, I'm American, so obviously I grew up with a tremendous Christian (Catholic, mostly) influence; and my conception, which I come by based on what I see in the world, is not of a particular just, righteous, loving, etc God; more of an absentee father, if God even exists. I do not consider myself spiritual in the least, but if I did, I would probably tend more towards a Buddhist view - that if there is a God, he is inconceivable, and not manifested in a book, or a building, or a symbol, but is present in everything; and the best way to worship him is not so much by prayer, etc but by treating everything as holy and having respect for the entire world around you. Which actually seems to be in line with your conception of Christianity, but your ideas tend to be different from those of most Christians I run into.

"Petty" may perhaps be a poor word choice for God; but as God is "interpreted" for we poor masses by priests and the like, sometimes I find the interpretations to be of a petty, needy God than that of a loving, gracious all-powerful entity.</strong>

I will say that most Christians rarely crack the good book (I don't nearly enough m'self). Most people in general have a very poor idea of what the Judeo-Christian God is like. And He is unknowable save for what He chose to reveal to us through the Bible. I can assure you that He's anything but an absentee father (mine was/is so I know what that's like) and that He loves His children very much. He would like you to be one and please don't let my or any other Christian's (priests included) poor understanding of Him stand in your way. (I had to go there for a minute.)

Oh, but to be trapped with the lovely Kathleen Quinlan...one's thoughts would turn to...

Though far more liberal these days, I can still recount to you what years of Sunday School, Christian school and Christian college have to say on the matter.

Some of it is redundant in this thread already, but...

The first thought of some sinful deed and/or being tempted are not in themselves wrong. According to the Bible, Jesus was tempted by Satan himself with food, power, etc. after fasting for days.

Instead, he turns Lucifer down three out of three times. Evidently, Jesus had to entertain (not dwell on) the thought for a nanosecond in order to set up his rebuttal.

According to the Bible, Jesus was without sin, but was fully flesh and blood. Thus the illustration (a "moral" that any Bhuddist, Wiccan, Satanist or even atheist can benefit from) is that it is possible to resist a potentially harmful temptation if one makes that conscious decision.

So, Biblically speaking, to think to yourself someone is attractive, "hot", what have you isn't an act of sin. You have eyes, hormones... things that a Christian takes to be God-given. You also have the imperative to be "Christ-like". The "What would Jesus do?" aspect of it.

As a Christian, your decision is to dwell on it by lusting/sinning or not dwelling.

For those outside of the Christian realm, there is still harm to be found in dwelling on negative thoughts. For Bhuddists, it is damaging to the happiness of yourself and others to dwell on lust. The prime goal would be to end suffering, and it would indeed cause suffering for you to want and not have another man's wife. It could lead to much more suffering, when you lead her to break her vow, inavertently break up a family, and have him come shoot you at your cubicle the next day. Suffering abounds for one selfish decision.

Whether you believe in sin or not, God or not, making "moral" right, selfless decisions will always be more rewarding.

if JC was never had impure THOUGHTS, then was never TRULY a MAN...thus negating the entire point of his own existance.

Why?

Good point. This is somewhat what I was trying to get at earlier. Jesus was a MAN. There shouldn't be any question that he didn't live his life is this bissfull mind-state. That would make him not human. He HAD to weigh the good and the bad of any decision he made, and therefore would have had to, even if it was for a second, imagine the other consequense of his actions. As the good General was getting at before, if Jesus had not thought about the Devil's options, then he was never really tested, and the story loses its whole purpose.

Thought-crime was no doubt something added in medieval times (like most guilt-inducing dogma) by people who were more concerned with keeping the faithful 'in line' than they were with teaching them the ways of God.

I think you might have missed Logan's point. There is a difference between weighing out the consequences of your actions and dwelling on the sinful action. The difference between going, "Should I cheat on my wife?" (not a sin) and "I am fantasizing about cheating on my wife." (A sin even though you "did" nothing.)

Jesus might have thought about the consequences of jumping off of the cliff and letting angels catch him, but he didn't actually dwell on doing it(my opinion). He didn't sin. If that somehow makes him less human then you must believe that God desires us to sin and for Jesus not to makes him outside of God's plan. It was not God's desire that man sin.

I guess this is just the thing that frustrates me about religion. I know you are just being honest in your beliefs, but this makes God look like this imposing school headmaster. He tosses out rediculous rules that are literally impossible to follow. Unless one lives in a box from the day of their birth on, they are going to think of sinning. You can sin without ever sinning. Just another round on the Christian guilt cycle. People should be proud of themselves for pushing away temptation, not feeling bad because a thought came in their mind. If there is a God that loves us, I don't think (s)he would fuck with us like that.

Guttenberg, I think the point that Scott is trying to make is that there is a difference between a momentary thought and something that is dwelled upon; realizing your secretary is an attractive woman is MUCH different than fantasizing about banging her (or perhaps trying to find a way to bang her).

I still think it's a bit of a crock, but I understand the distinction that Scott is making above.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Guttenberg Fan Club:
<strong>I guess this is just the thing that frustrates me about religion. I know you are just being honest in your beliefs, but this makes God look like this imposing school headmaster. He tosses out rediculous rules that are literally impossible to follow.</strong>

He has high standards and you're right they are impossible to follow. If it were possible to follow them, Christ would not have had to come..

[/qb]Unless one lives in a box from the day of their birth on, they are going to think of sinning. You can sin without ever sinning. Just another round on the Christian guilt cycle. People should be proud of themselves for pushing away temptation, not feeling bad because a thought came in their mind. If there is a God that loves us, I don't think (s)he would fuck with us like that.[/QB]

He is not "fucking" with us. It's not about guilt. I don't feel guilty in the way I think you mean it. I feel free. God extended his grace to me even though/in spite of the fact that I didn't deserve it. I do feel good when I push away temptation. I just know enough about my nature and human nature that we can't always do it. You can't "sin wothout sinning" because the thoughts are sin. Well actually they aren't. I think the root of sin is the idea of rebelling against God. Even if you don't believe in God you have a moral sense. I believe that moral sense comes from God. You know right from wrong. When you sin, wether that is thinking about banging your secretary, or actually doing it, you know it's wrong on some level (unless you're married to her). We are lost. All of us are lost. Even the Christians get lost from time to time. We are no better and the only difference is that we have acknowledged God and His plan for our salvation. That rambled a little but I hope you see what I am saying.

And thanks for seeing what I was trying to get across Chavez.

I hear what he's trying to say, I guess my problem lies in what has been discussed above, which is that Jesus didn't think about the temptations at all. It takes ALL of the humaness out of Jesus to imagine he was wandering around all day smiling like a dope because he had NO worries & NO temptations. He made the right choices, but there is nowhere in the Bible that will tell you that Jesus never thought of sinning. Why did God take the time to impregnate a virgin? Because he wanted his son to be a Man. If he wanted to, he could have sent down Jesus as an angel, a spirit, or anything else. But he didn't, and to say Jesus isn't a man is going against God in a way. And saying Jesus was beyond thinking of temptation is saying Jesus was not a man.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Guttenberg Fan Club:
<strong>I hear what he's trying to say, I guess my problem lies in what has been discussed above, which is that Jesus didn't think about the temptations at all.</strong>

I think you are still misunderstanding. Being tempted is not the same as sinning. He did think about the temptations. He may have even considered them over a long time (we don't know). But he did not sin.

<strong>It takes ALL of the humaness out of Jesus to imagine he was wandering around all day smiling like a dope because he had NO worries & NO temptations.</strong>

Jesus worried (not a sin) and he was tempted (also not a sin).

<strong>He made the right choices, but there is nowhere in the Bible that will tell you that Jesus never thought of sinning.</strong>

But it does say He didn't sin. ANd the Bible does say that he said looking at a woman and lusting after her is the same as committing adultery and he said that thinking of killing someone is as sinful as killing them.

<strong>Why did God take the time to impregnate a virgin? Because he wanted his son to be a Man. If he wanted to, he could have sent down Jesus as an angel, a spirit, or anything else. But he didn't, and to say Jesus isn't a man is going against God in a way. And saying Jesus was beyond thinking of temptation is saying Jesus was not a man.</strong>

I agree.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by YaeSu:
<strong>Well, then I guess masturbation is a sin. But not sex. </strong>

Both can be a sin.

<strong>Hmm. And during sex we usually are thinking of someone else, other than whom we are with. </strong>

Not me (generally).

[quote]capteucalyptus (Scott Roche):
So thought DOESN'T equal sin. That's what we've been saying. You can think of sinful things, but that in and of itself is not a sin. Fair enough.

Thought can = sin. It does not always. Like I said thinking about comitting adultery with your secretary after she offers and weighing consequences is probably not a sin especially if you say no. For me the thought wouldn't be there for the tick of a clock. You might have to think longer. This is a temptation.

Fantasizing about committing adultery with her is probably a sin. Is that clear? Keep in mind that this is merely my interpretation and I'm not setting myself up as judge here.