So... I heard the most anti-semetic,anti anything not christian thing ever.....

I don't know if they thought that only Christians are GOOD, but rather he (she?) are sticking to their ideology. And it's not just Christians who do this. Jews, Muslims, Christians, Hindus....they all believe that their way is the one true way. They all think that they will be the only ones to see heaven. I do think it was rather insenstitive to say it to a couple of Jewish folks, but I think that a big chunk of all the worlds organized releghions think something along those same lines.

Yeah, only about 70% of my school believes that. It's frustrating, because they're otherwise cool people. But if you're not Christian, you're going to burn for all eternity. The stupid thing is, half the time they don't think you've done anything wrong, they think it's just the way things are, and they expect you to accept it without any ill feelings.

We as christians base our beliefs on the teachings of Jesus. He does say that "no one comes to the Father except through me", John 14:6. We believe that Jesus is the way to salvation. Does that mean that everyone else is going to hell? I hope not, but that's not my place to decide. I have many many non christian friends. Most are really good people. I love these people to death. As a christian, I'd like to see them come to Christ, but most are not interested. I can only live the life that I hope will be a good witness to christians and non christians alike. I am not God. It is not my call to say who will be saved and who won't. I can only base my beliefs on what the Bible tells me. I can tell you this though, just because we may not agree, does not give me the right to get in your face about it.

What DJ said, basically.

Heh - start asking them about Christianity and keep mentioning your interest in "Christian mythology";

That tends to get under people's skins.

Don't let some idiot bug you; I was out eating a burger yesterday and some of my co-workers started giving me shit (kiddingly) about no meat on Good Friday, which prompted a response along the lines of "I'm not fucking Catholic; I'm not even Christian!", which led to a brief, polite discussion on belief.

Generally, when someone tells me I'm going to hell because of this or that, my general response is along the lines of "Thanks for your concern, but that's my problem." I really don't think there's a God up there judging us by what church (or temple, or synod, or whatever) we do or don't go to, and if there is, that's not a being I want anything to do with.

I had some Christian guy giving me grief because I was eating a sandwich on Friday:

HIM: Did you take the meat off of that?

ME (chewing): Um, no.

HIM: Well it's Good Friday.

ME (chewing harder): Yes, I got paid, it's a very good Friday.

HIM: Well, I'll say a prayer and turn it into ham for you.

ME (not chewing and glaring): No, you and your god will leave my sandwich alone, thank you.

Geez, just mind your own business....

POST OF THE DAMN DAY!

Heh heh...got paid...

Well, while similar ideas to that of the Christian Heaven may exist in other religions, Judaism, for one, does not have any idea like this. There's no concept of an afterlife associated with Judaism at all. We prefer focusing how to better live the life at hand, rather than worrying about what comes next. Jews don't think that they have a monopoly on how to live your life, either. Jews believe in Judaism, just like Christians believe in Christianity, or Muslims believe in Islam. Unlike Christianity, Judaism isn't a religion based on expanding itself to as many people as possible. I'm certainly not the most religious Jew (I live in a city with a VERY small Jewish community and belong to a Reform congregation), but I do like what it says and what it stands for, and I too hate it when I hear people spouting religious -- or, for that matter, any kind of intolerance.

Okay, I've got something similar to add to this conversation. A kid at my school killed himself earlier this year, and while he wasn't very popular, he had quite a number of friends. I barely knew him, and all I really knew was that he was kind of screwed up, but his death still hit me kind of hard.

Well, a few days after his death, some of his friends drew messages in his parking space with chalk saying "Look down at us from above!" and "We hope heaven is cool!" Well, two of my friends (who we will only call "C" and "M") were walking by it one day. M is a bit of a Jesus freak and C is not religious in the least bit. So, when they walk by the parking space, M just says, "Heaven, he's not going to heaven. He killed himself, so he's in hell right now."

Now, he can believe that if he wants. It makes sense, so I'm not going to debate that religious philosophy, but the timing of that statement is just fucking wrong. When someone dies, it just isn't right to say ANYTHING like that. One can think that all one wants, but to say it out loud when people could have heard? That just isn't right. It pissed me off when C told me that and it pissed me off more when M confirmed it.

Which only makes me stress that people need to keep their religious beliefs to themselves. Period.

While I would not exactly call what the Christians that Dylan were talking about intolerant because of what they did, I am more enlightened on the subject of what Jews believe concerning an afterlife.
What is spouting off exactly? Should these people NEVER discuss their relegious beliefs in public for fear of offending someone? You don't have to like what or believe what other folks say, but you don't have to listen either.
And Christianity is not based on expanding itself to as many people as possible. True Christianity is based on love and helping your fellow man, not spreading itself to people like a disease.

[quote]call7001:
Yeah, but it may just be me, but coming up to someone and basically saying, "Oh, hello! You're going to hell, by the way," is just rude and obviously offensive. You can share your religion n public without telling people to go to hell.

Exactly. Someone talking about what their religion has to offer is not intolerance. Someone talking about why someone else's religion may lead to their damnation...is intolerance, or at least startling inconsideration (word?).

And I didn't mean to say that Christianity was based on spreading itself, but it can't be denied that that is one of its key traits.

But that is the basis upon which Christianity is founded...that Jesus, the Christ, died for our sins. And when we accept that personally we are "saved".

I wouldn't go around saying it's a "crock of shit". If nothing else it's just bad manners.

Ok, I don't want to be a Bible thumper, but I feel that I need to respond to Jabba's comments. You say that you read the Bible daily, and I commend you for that but let me point out several verses that you should have come across if you've read what Jesus said. Here are some verses. I am not going to quote them, but just list them, so that you can look them up and see all the contexts of those verses.
John 10:7-10
John 3:16-18
John 14:6 (which I stated above)
I'm sure that I can find others, if you'd like.
As I also have stated above, I am not GOD. I don't decide people's fates. I have many people that I know and love that are not Christians. I do not get in their faces about that fact. I think doing so only breeds anger and that only would make things worse. They are good people and I always try to focus on the good in people. I believe that Jesus did the same. I truly hope that others will go to heaven that are not Christian, but as a Christian, I base my beliefs on what I have read in the Bible.

Oh and to Cheese Biscuits:
Not only am I not God, I'm relatively certain that your friends aren't either. It is not up to them whether or not someone has gone to hell because of a moment of weakness. Suicide is always a tragic event. Unforunately, I have had to deal with the subject on several occasions and it is never easy to deal with.

Well, okay, but saying, "Oh he's going to hell" right after that person died just isn't right. I don't know (or really care) if that's true, but what if C had known him? What if one of his friends was nearby? It is just fucking rude to say things like that so close to someone's death, no matter what the cause. It's not a matter of who's God or not, it's a matter of ethical behavior.

I agree. My point was that, whether it's the day of or 10 years from now, it is no one's place to say something like that. Ever!

Those silly Christians. I spent Good Friday drinking from 3 pm to 3 am with a bunch of friends. We came up with a great idea for a power bar commercial after a few *cough* *cough* pitchers. Jesus is carrying the cross up the hill, but becomes too tired and has to stop, until someone comes out of the crowd and hands him a power bar. After consuming it, Christ has the energy to not only carry the cross the rest of the way, but to also set it up himself.

Next time someone brings that up, tell him that Samson committed suicide, and look what the book of Hebrews, chapter 11 says.

I once lost an uncle to suicide. It causes great pain in me when I think that my uncle's life had become unbearable. In my teenage years I would have mourned the lost of my uncle believing there was no possible way for him to be saved. But I now believe differently. We have a God who understands our thoughts and judges us according to the abundance of His mercy and compassion for our pain. Surely my uncle was in horrific anguish. I take great comfort in 1 Samuel 16:7, ". . .the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

Question for Jabba:

I'm sensing a slight distaste for the writings of Paul. Is this true? Are the gospels the only relevant writings in the NT to you?

I'm just wondering because when I first read the NT I thought Jesus was great, but I hated Paul. Since then I have found great meaning in Paul's words. Guy had it pretty rough.

Uhhh...no. Bad idea.

jabba you happen to miss the greatest point of all.

Jesus came as God's gift to the world. Key world here is "gift".

You have to accept the gift to enjoy it. To just simply follow the teachings of Jesus without accepting Him as the Risen Lord and the Sacraficial Lamb means nothing. Goes with the arguement "I live a good life thus I am going to Heaven." Unfortunately if that was the case then none of us would make it to heaven because we all sin and fall short of the glory of God (ROm 3:23). But if we accept the gift that is Jesus then we have accepted the gift of everlasting life. Jesus died for all our sins but if we do not accept that then we shall forever remain in sin and never born again. If we accpet Jesus in our hearts and confess Him before man and God then we shall be confessed by Jesus before God (Matt 11:32-33) All those people who were healed by Jesus and were touched by His miracles did not just believe in His teachings alone but also believed in Him as the Messiah. Son of God. Thus they were allowed to enter His miracle power. Simply said you can follow Jesus's words and live a good life. But there are other things. One called faith. Faith that Jesus is Son of God and sent to save us all through our accepting Him into our lives. Without that faith and acceptance there is no Holy Spirit dwelling in you. No Holy Spirit no conviction. no conviction the less likely you will KNOW without having read Jesus's every word whether something is bad or good. Jesus said nothing of movies but some movies should not be seen. Some music should not be heard (Satan was the chief worship leader(music) before he was cast down). Some things should not be read. but how will you be able to tell. How can you tell the difference between a flase teacher and a godly teacher? How can you test the spirits? (1 John 3:24-4:2) You cant by simply knowing? Thats why most people don't get Christianity. Thats why even some Christinas dont get Christianity because there is a Spirit in us that compels us to speak up about our faith. We can't just sit idly by and watch things happen without speaking. THAT would betray the teachings of Jesus. Words cannot describe somethings of Jesus. At least logic or reason cannot. And it is because only Jesus living in you can fully manifest that. Otherwise we are empty vessels.

As to speaking out like those C and M kids did about the kid who commityed suicide their comments were terrifically ill timed and not thought through. Christians also need to realize when we speak to the world we cannot just frankly say somethings. Notice Jesus did not say He was the Son of God until he was asked or confronted about it. So I apologize for them and their "misguided" ways for that is indeed what it was. And to you DJ I apologize for what was said to you my again misguided youth. The Jews are no matter what God's chosen people and have a special place in his heart.....not just at the circumscision counter It is because the US supports Israel that we are blessed as we are. (yes blessed) Jesus was a Jew himself so I see no reason to try and condemn the Jews.

Ill add a disclaimer here noting that I am not as good explaining somethings typed as I am in person. So forgive me if some ideas seems small or short as I get much more into in person....without being overbearing

[quote]kronos:
note the coughing and possible drunkenness.

Hey Jherek, I thought it was funny.

Maybe kronos was just referring to the 12 hr drinking session as a bad idea, because your PowerBar ad is GENIUS

I highly recommend that you seriously contemplate the Book of Acts, in relation to your stated feelings about who Jesus was, and what we, as people living today, need to do about it. I'm sure you've read it before, but I would go through it again and examine why Jesus was here. Also, don't forget that both Peter and Paul were executed for their beliefs (Peter was crucified upside-down, Paul was beheaded). Who did they think Jesus was, and how does that differ from your interpretation?

Ok, first let me commend everyone on making this a discussion and not a fight. I think many good points have been made. All the comments that I make are meant with respect to those who read them and should not be taken as personal attacks. So, that being said, I'd like to make some additional points. Most are directed to Jabba.
First let me say that I agree that deeds are important. In James 2:14-26, James talks about faith and deeds and how they go hand in hand. If you profess to be a Christian, then you must do more that just claim it. You should live it. I have always felt and said that the greatest witness a Christian has is by showing the sincerety of his beliefs by the way he lives. But these works are not what saves us. In Ephesians 2:4-10, we learn that it is God's grace that saves us and not deeds. It does say that we are created through Jesus to do good works, but it also says that those works are not what saves us.
If being a good person is the same as being a Christian, then why use the word Christian? Yes there are people who do good works that are of other faiths. Their personal beliefs may coincide with the beliefs of Christ, but if you do not accept him as your savior, then you are not Christian. You are wanting to take Christ out of Christianity. If Jesus was teaching that you only had to do as he did. He would have said so. He speaks plainly to the apostles, because they missed his points sometimes and I believe that he would have plainly said by his ways and not say through him, we are saved. I agree, that just saying we believe is not enough. We must act on those beliefs and live His teachings. You get no argument from me there. But, those actions are not the only thing that saves us. It is through Christ's sacrifice and God's grace that we gain salvation. I have read the new testament over and over for over 20 years now and I have never come across anything to convince me different. I believe in God's grace and that Jesus was his only begotten son with all my heart and it is a belief that I am going to take to my grave. It was brought up earlier that the apostles believed that he was the Christ and that some died for it. The truth is that most died violently because of those beliefs:
1)Peter was crucified upside down in 66 A.D.
2)Andrew was bound to death in 74 A.D.
3)James, son of Zebedee, was beheaded
4)John was banished to the Isle of Patmos in 96 A.D.
5)Philip was crucified in 52 A.D.
6)Bartholomew was beaten, crucified, and then beheaded in 52 A.D.
7)Thomas was run through by a lance in 52 A.D.
8)Mathew was slain by the sword in 60 A.D.
9)James, son of Alphaeus, was thrown from a pinnacle and then beaten to death.
10)Thadeus was shot to death by arrows in 72 A.D.
11)Simon was crucified in Persia in 74 A.D.

All these died defending their beliefs in that Jesus was the Christ and that he was resurrected. If all Jesus was telling them was to live a good life, then they would not have put themselves at death's door proclaiming his Lordship. They saw him raised and were willing to go to their graves in horrible fashions proclaiming that fact.

Now if Jesus was only saying that all you need to do for salvation, was to do good deeds. Why did he have to die? It was clear that he knew it was coming. He could have easily avoided it.I've studied crucifixions and it was a horrible way to die. HE KNEW IT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN ! He knew the pain and humiliation that he would suffer, but he went through with it. Why. He died as a final sacrifice for our sins. If you deny his being the Christ, then you are denying his sacrifice for us. There was a purpose to his death and that was to save us. His apostles knew that, taught that, and they died as well.
My point is that we cannot deny His sacrifice. We cannot deny Him being the Christ. We cannot deny God's grace through Christ's coming. Yes we should follow His ways, but we should also realize that we are saved through Him and by grace.
To all those reading this post, please know that it was written out of love and prayers that the Spirit would guide us all in our understanding of Jesus Christ.

I think Jesus should give the power bar provider a wink and a thumbs up, Mentos style. Or Buddy Christ style.

Jabba,
As I said before. It is not my place to say who is going to heaven and who is not. There are lots of things that I don't understand about how it all works. Things that none of us will understand as long as we live. I believe that God is just and that Jesus died for everyone, living and dead and that salvation comes through him. I think that this is a point that we will go round and round on and may be one that we will have to agree to disagree on. I do want to say again, thanks for making this a really great discussion on Christian philosophy. I think that this has been a great example how we can all have different opinions, but express those feelings without getting angry or in each other's faces about it. That brings us back to the original topic about the way we should and should not treat others who feel differently about religious matters. I think that that is a great message.

ZING!!!

Oh wait....

wink

After having spent three years at one of the strictest catholic colleges in the country, a little time in the seminary, and most of my life around people/families that have rather intense feelings toward religion, I've come to one conclusion. Everyone interprets the bible differently. There are mixed messages within the pages and possible contradictions between the old and new testaments. Quote the New Test all you want, but it is theoretically the fruition of the Old Test. Any problems or inconsistencies with Old Test necessarily take away from the validity of the New Test. If any exist, that is.

IMHO: the bible is the Christian deli stand. People pick and choose and walk away with their favorite sandwich.

Everything's cool Jabba. You know, there's nothing wrong about being passionate about God. God bless you to, my friend.

Unless you feel like you have to kill for god, which apparently many humans do. wink

But so many people do

And just as many kill for the hell of it. Besides, more people have been murdered just in this century by Godless tyrants. So don't give us this "more wars have been fought and more people have died in the name of religion or God" bullshit.

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Stalin murdered 20,000,000 people in the name of The State.
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hitler murdered 6,000,000 Jews and 3,000,000 people of other faiths or of no faith...all in the name of the National Socialist Party Agenda.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Very very few wars or military campaigns have been fought in the name of anybody's God. Think very carefully about that statement. Now think of any major war and you'll find there was land, political power, monetary gain, or natural resources involved.
Crusades? Yes, there was a religious aspect to that campaign. Aside from that you'll be hard-pressed to find very many "religious wars" because for the most part they don't exist.

True, you'll find religious Zealots on one, both, or several sides in just about any war. But if you truly look at each conflict you'll find the above stated motivations.

In the Middle East you find two of the oldest living civilizations/peoples fighting one another for a spit of land. On this land happens to be a Holy Place or Places. But if one or the other destroys the landmarks that exist there these warring factions would still be fighting. They hate each other, they are mad to have the same piece of land, and they'll do whatever they can or will do to have it.

See, Kronos, that's the whole point. Religion wants to elevate itself above the age-old conflicts over land, political power, monetary gain, or natural resources, but it's all the same. Religions have been, and still can be, brutal entities that are governed by HUMAN BEINGS, with all the weaknesses ascribed to them.

No, Dyl, I didn't mean "so many people have to kill for god." I just mean "so many people DO kill for god." It's just a fact we have to deal with.

And how about this for a holy book encouraging murder. From the Koran:

Who's to say who's waging war against Allah? And how about this:

or this:

Seems like there's plenty of backing in holy texts for killing for God.

Forget wars, what about all those insane abortion clinic attacks and bombings? A lot of those had obvious religious motivation. Just giving an example of someone killing for God (not necessarily with it's approval, mind you).

Another thing about many religions that bothers me is the persecution of homosexuals. I myself am straight, and an agnostic, so I know people are gonna say "Shut up! This has nothing to do with you!" but it does affect me seeing how there's a lot of gay people in this world (some are friends).

Anyone else find it strange that there's so much protest and violence against gay people, because apparently God hates gay people? To my understanding, God loves all, and can forgive all so where do they get off?

I was talking to this Christian guy at work and he was going on about how he wants to kill gay people, but he'd rather let God punish them himself and how that if he were President (the dolt was talking about Canada too) he'd have all gay people killed (contradictory I know). It made me sick to know that this sort of shit is being preached and believed all over the place.

I know not ALL Christians and whatever don't think this way, but the ones who do...just...blargh!

Thoughts?

I recall hearing that the pre-Christian prophets were given visions by God of the coming of Christ, thus they foreknew his appearance and ergo, were admitted to Heaven.

I admire this as one of the more sterling examples of dogmatic contortion ever committed.

Well, I think I can say without fear of contridiction, that no other chewer has experienced the number and types of hatred being directed at them, solely because of their religion, as I have. I doubt any religion gets attacked so fiercely, as does mine. That has been true for me for nearly thirty years.

I don'r ever discuss my religion on line and I am not going to do so now.

I did want to say, that whatever your religion is, I am stunned to find out so many of you have the desire to know more about your religions and I did not expect to find people here interested in religion, even if it is the religion they were brought up in.

Although I expected to find intelligent people here at CHUD, I admit the number of those with a spiritual interest has surprised me.

I think it fair to say that regardless of what your religion is, if you practice religion with great dedication, that is fantastic, up until the time you feel you must condem another religion, because it is different than yours. Or to condem any religion, because you don't beliee in any religion. That doesn't happen to me here, except in very rare instances.

Its almost too obvious, but if you expect your religion to be tolereated, you better be tolerant of other people's religions. (See Golden Rule)

Dylan: As far as the kids saying that as Christians only they could go to heaven? Why does everybody assume there is only one heaven? If God is omnipatent and omnipresent, couldn't God be in two places at the same time, or more? (See, He is everywhere)

Also, remember people like to feel superior to other people. Its sad but true. One race feels its superior to another. Arabs think they are superior to Jews and vice versa. Southerners think they are better than Yankees. Californians know they're better than everyone else. One religion tries to tell themselves that only they have the secret to getting into heaven. Some Baptist churchs I know of, feel that Southern Baptists are too liberal to get into heaven, because the Southern Baptists allow babies to be baptisted, before they are saved.

Anyway, again I too am glad to see this discussion going on. It gives me some hope for our future. Maybe our kids won't have to feel like they have to kill people because they believe differently.

I believe this statement opens up a can of worms that you may want to put back. Do you really believe that every single person, regardless of who or what they are, goes straight to heaven? That certainly gets around the "Is Gandhi in heaven" question but then brings up the classic "Is Hitler in heaven" question? If we all go to heaven after we die, is this life not meaningless? I should kill myself right now, I guess. wink Maybe you could elaborate on your belief system.

What is good, what is evil? Who decides? Is there a cosmic scale where God puts my good deeds and bad deeds and weighs them against each other? What if I don't know the things I'm doing are bad? The 9/11 hijackers thought they were going to heaven because, in their opinion, they were doing "God's" work. Do they get to go to heaven? What if they had been exemplary people before the hijackings? Would that weigh in their favor or not?

How can a person know if they are "good" enough to be with God?

Adolf, here's your little slice of heaven. Why don't you go sit over there with Stalin and have some fun?

"But that part of heaven looks better than my part of heaven? Hey are there Jews over there? Come on Stalin, let's go get 'em."

____________

Wouldn't you prefer to believe something that you thought was true, rather than wishing it was true without thinking of the possible consequences? Because if we aren't in heaven, but we go to heaven, then this place is the absence of heaven, which makes our earth seem quite warm. If we all go to heaven, what is the point of living down here in this virtual hell?

Jabba,

The notions of good and evil are fluid in this world. How can I know what is good and what is evil? Are clothing women from head to toe to protect them from the lusts of men good? Is abortion good? Is the death penalty good? Is eating animals good? I'm not trying to put you on the spot here. Your answers to these questions are certainly right for you, but are they right for all of us. Maybe, maybe not. You are only human, albeit with a small spark of the divine (as we all are). What I'm saying is how can I know that I am leading a good life?

You think Hitler thought he was evil. He thought he was doing the world a favor by taking it over and killing the undesirables. In his mind, he was the hero, not Churchill or Roosevelt. How can I trust my limited perceptions to determine cosmically what is good or evil?

for typos