Concerns about the boards, and crap like that - Page 3

Thanks for the answer Nick. Maybe this is an issue people have? I relize you may make statements that may be taken the wrong way (usually when you seem quite angry). I think I've said it before, but it bears repeating: Let it come to light right now what the real problems on the boards are. I want specifics of what really irks you. You can leave out names if you like but what behaviors are making your пенис go down like Bob Dole without Viagra? Is it really the lack of website related material being posted? Is it the constant linking to non-chud movie info where the same/better shit can be found on chud or should be sent to chud? Is it the threads going to shit after pointless posting (which seems rampant these days). Is it the constant Devin getting beat on by angry reincartnations of past chewers? Really.. let's air this mo-fucker out. I want a definitve answer. Let's play Dr. Melfi here and get this shit fixed.

Call me a "yes man" if you want, but I think things are moving in the right direction. I have yet to witness Star Chamber putting a stop to an INTERESTING conversation. And honestly, if I were in Nick's shoes, I'd have banned half a dozen chewers over the last few weeks.

With the above I hope to stop more Chewers from leaving as I think many of the old timers feel neither wanted or appreciated here these days. Thus why we've lost so many.

I'm could care less about the newbies leaving, sometimes this just isn't your place. But I'll be fucked if we just let "them" ("them" being "problem posters") win and watch more of my favorite Chewers leave or fall completely into obscurity.

Micah, these are not 'my' issues. If you are really good friends with a co-worker, and he gets a promotion and becomes your boss then the dynamic changes. I'm not insinuating Star Chamber members are our 'bosses'. I'm saying that the inclusion into Star Chamber allows these Chewers a bit more power which changes the dynamic. This is not 'my' issue. This is a normal, every day fact.

Brian,

I don't see how we can get anywhere with this because you're coming from a position that doesn't reconcile with what we've actually done as far as I can see. I can admit that my perspective may color things, but when I reconcile that perspective with the FACTS of what SC has actually done and what they've allowed to happen, then it still jibes. You accuse us of a bias that cannot be supported except through your own opinion. You accuse of overnudging...ditto. Locking tons of threads...ditto.

Your sole example of anything is this thread, which was allowed to breath because Nick encouraged the creation of this thread and was sure to visit it to answer questions and to get it on track sooner or later. He was the only one that COULD have gotten it on track. If SC intervened, we could silence the derailers, but the thread still would've just sat there piling up with complaints until Nick arrived. Meanwhile, we reinforce the SC stereotypes.

As for the creativity remarks...if it irks you to hear me reuse that same criticism bandied over and over, think of how tiresome it is to read "Who Watches the Watchers" ad infinitum.

This is probably Chud's darkest day and I've been here for a long time. The state of affairs though, is not nearly as bad as this horrid thread makes things out to be.

Nick mentioned that there is a difference between chewers and posters. Well, unlike those others above me who've taken some offense at this, I'm proud to simply be a poster. We are the one who actually come here looking for discussion of movies and entertainment. We are the ones who are always cautious not to be offensive. We are the ones who are not deludging the boards with un-necessary garbage.

Lately, threads have been boiling over because the most outspoken of the "chewers" cannot allow themselves to agree with other chewers whose political beliefs they do not support. Some have mentioned that it's just a handful of people causing 90% of the problems. This is correct. There is a small minority that ruins it for everyone and it's not who you might think it is.

People like me blend intot he background, but we do not contribute any less. I've seen continuous complaints that the mainsites are not read, but that's because those very outspoken chewers that I refer to see a need to get their word in before anyone else, before they have all the information so they can seem more important. The rest of us do in fact read the main site. We do in fact know what is going on, but unfortunately, it is our civilty that prevents us from being recognized.

I used to think people here simply ignored me, but I know that's not the case now. It's because I'm not offensive so I do not usually warrant a response, but I know that people do read through my posts. I also know that there are many quiet "posters" on here who do the same and that there are even more lurkers who come here for commentary, but are polite enough to leave things well enough alone. We are a far bigger force than the valued chewers who yell and scream through every thread. We are the ones who come here for what the boards are supposed to be for.

So for the first time, I'll take a side. I agree with your bannings Nick, despite the fact that I like django. I think you should ban even more though, and see that those who you value as your closest supporters are also the ones who are causing you the most trouble. Get rid of those who are constantly and incessantly screaming at one another. They are the ones rocking the boat. I suggest you start with the politics forum because the people in there let their feeling spill out into the other forums like a virus. Get rid of them. There will be many lurkers and quiet "posters" who will step up to take their place.

Lurkers and Posters. We're quiet, but we're here. We do not cause trouble. If you really are going to take a hard line and clean things up, then do it all the way. I think you'll find it a far better place; like it was 3 years ago when we didn't have "chewers" with stubbornly imbedded politcal beliefs that they allowed to spill over into other things. Get rid of the extremists. Return things to that state when nobody even worried about rules because everyone was naturally good. Get rid of the extremists. The rest of us are tired of thier shit and you know exactly the people I'm talking about. There are about 20 people who need to leave. I have never been so direct, but if you want my opinion, I will PM you a list.

Until this kind of cut happens, you'll get the bickering you see in this very thread spill over into everything else.

I don't see how we can get anywhere either, Micah. As far as I can tell, when you present me with information (such as the number of locked threads) I am processing that and trying to understand it. This thread is not my sole example of anything. I even told you exactly what the general populace would do to this thread before it was even created, and was pretty well on the mark. You have given me information about locked threads, and that has helped me change my mind about that topic. Unfortunately, I don't have the time or desire to wade through threads showing different inappropriate 'nudges'. Especially because it's evident that your response is going to be to show all the times that you could have nudged but didn't. I also don't have any great desire to be the creepy stalker guy replying in every thread where I think an inappropriate nudge was given. You can either take it in stride and actually keep your eyes open and look for what I'm talking about, or you can dismiss it outright because it isn't the way you perceive things. Unfortunately, I have a pretty good feeling which way that one has already gone.

It doesn't irk me to hear you reuse that criticism, Micah. Again, I feel like you're arguing a point that I didn't even make. I don't understand the idea that it's okay to bash you as long as it's done in a funny way. I've attempted to do it respectfully instead. If you'd rather I make some weird attempt like calling you guys the Aqua Teen Hunger Force gone wrong, I guess that's your call...

I suppose I fall into the "yes men" category too, Z-Man. I think the main site is as good--if not better--as it has ever been, and I don't have a problem with Star Chamber either. After a few initial problems while they were getting their feet wet, I think they've been doing a good job while faced with a thankless, unpopular task, and I appreciate their efforts.

I understand the reasoning behind this thread, and I'm worried about losing the message boards just as much as anybody else. But I also think there's a direct correlation between these type of threads and the overall mood of the message boards. Yesterday, for the first time in a while, the boards seemed fun again. Nobody was bitching. Nobody was complaining. And the general mood of the board seemed to improve.

I'm not suggesting that we should all just shut up and sit down, but for Chrissakes...sometimes it wouldn't hurt to hesitate for a moment before posting a complaint. Think about why you're complaining, then consider whether your complaint will accomplish anything other than pissing people off. That's not a slam directed at anybody--especially not you, Andre--but past experiences during the last few weeks seems to show that the majority of complaints directed at Nick and the Star Chamber are just spiteful attacks or barely concealed hostility. And every one of those attacks *does* affect the overall mood of these boards, whether you want to admit it or not.

I'm sure this post will get me slammed with both insinuations that a newbie should stay out of these arguments, and that I'm somehow insinuating that we shouldn't express our opinions here, but all I'm asking is for a little restraint. If people devoted even a quarter of the energy they used for bitching about these boards to actually trying to improve them, these discussions would be made moot in the first place.

And that would be a damn nice thing.

I see very little "bickering" from the people I would call Chewers here.

I saw some intelligent comments and complaints, and I saw a couple people try to derail this thread from the getgo. Did we read the same thread? Minus out Kronos and JenGe, I think this thread has been worthwhile. When will people learn that when a thread doesn't intrest them they really DO NOT NEED TO POST IN IT.

I see a few Chewers around who start fights and I see Chewers who fight back. It seems that the ones who fight back are the enemy. Where's the outrage over Kronos and JenGe? How are we supposed to react when someone calls us whiners are tries to ruin your/our threads? Ignore them? Maybe, but that's just not a lot of peoples nature.

And by the way that would be weirdly appropriate, because when I read your posts I hear the voice of Shake saying the words. Sorry about the tangent.

This whole thing has become a bloated mess. Someone put bullet points on your concerns and I'll address. Be concise, please.

I don't think Andre's beginning post was any of those things. Maybe you can have fun the day after a couple of your favorite Chewers have left but it's obvious a few others can't. I'm glad you're not involved in any of this, so respectfully I'd ask you to stay out if it pains you so much to read this. I really don't see all these "attacks" and "hostility" against Nick all over the MB's. Just because someone disagrees with Nick on SC doesn't mean we hate Nick. We've all let it be known how we feel about this board, let us have our space and air this out with Nick.

OK, I made an effort not to respond to you because you made a request to be ignored. Evidently that door doesn't swing both ways; once again setting an example for the hypocrisy that is your existence. No doubt you won't recall any of this because you only decide to follow your own advice as the situation permits; exhibiting some bizarre form of situational amnesia, or my diagnosis that your mildly retarded. Let me refresh your memory and direct you to the thread <a href="http://chuddotcom.nexcess.net/board/ubbhtml/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=66;t=000800" target="_blank">here</a>. Your weakness Devin, is that you talk TOO much.

My request to you (as you seem to feel just in replying to me) is that you prove my fixation on the newbie issue. I have never jumped a bandwagon for newbie support, so you will find no evidence to support your statement, proving once again what you have written is nothing more than lie. What I wrote in my last post was directed at the attitudes towards grey beards (as they were), if you took the time to read what others have written instead of typing 'newbie' in the 'Find (On this page)' Internet Explorer option, you might actually understand something once and a while.

I am left to assume that there are multiple Devins running around in the head of yours, because you don't seem to know what you've written one post to the next. This is an outright lie, as proven <a href="http://chuddotcom.nexcess.net/board/ubbhtml/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=66;t=000800" target="_blank">here</a>.

If you don't want me to respond to you, then please give me the same respect (click <a href="http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=respect" target="_blank">here</a>, as I think you need to refresh your definition). I'll be happy to take this to PM's if you feel the need to soil my screen with whatever unjustified, irate, and insane reply you think you have.

Please do us all a favour and take your own advice rather than acting like a hypocritical dictator.

Nick could you respond to this:

I'd like to add that many of so-called "whiners" want the same goddamned thing Nick wants.

Some ideas:

Matt Carroll brought up the idea of "pay to play". I like the idea of having some type of subscription service. It could help weed out the garden.

This is a little harsh, but each forum moderator could have the capability to ban a chewer from posting in that particular forum. Said chewer would still be allowed to view threads.

I think Nick aired out his Pay to Play viewpoints awhile ago.

2nd Point I don't believe the boards is capable of that? right?

Micah and Nick are doing a bang-up job of fielding stuff, but I do want to comment on this.

These "nudges" - essentially one line posts, from ourselves, asking people to back off from brewing arguments - are a judgment call. It's a judgment that Nick has entrusted to Micah, and he in turn has entrusted to us lucky souls who make up the Star Chamber.

People may think some of them "inappropriate", just as others will find them "appropriate". But in every instance where this is done, it's because whatever debate or argument is taking place, has started to slip into personal attacks and off-topic. Sometimes it'll be strict, other times we'll be lenient. Every time, there will be an obvious reason for it to happen. Insults fly, old rivalries rear up and before you know it another thread has turned into a clusterfuck.

The only rights we're impinging on is people's rights to be abusive assholes. The only reason someone should feel that they're being stifled is if they were planning to start a fight. Otherwise, where's the harm? If we locked the thread, we'd be accused of over-zealousness. If we let arguments flourish, we'd be accused of not being effective. A polite request to keep things civil shouldn't be a problem, unless being uncivil was your aim.

Our job isn't to police threads. That's the wrong analogy. We're more like firefighters. We do what we can to stop fires breaking out, we do what we can to stop fires from getting out of hand, and if all else fails we turn on the hose and put the bastard out. Our response varies from situation to situation. Every thread is different, based on who's involved, what they're arguing about and where they're arguing. There's no blanket rulebook you can apply to something as fluid as a messageboard, hence: judgment calls.

If you think a judgment call is wrong, tell Micah. Time and time again, he's said that he's ready and willing to deal with the fallout from any Star Chamber action. The fact that in the three or so weeks we've been doing this, we've only used the Star Chamber login just over 70 times (mostly to move threads at the authors request), and have had only three complaints/queries about decisions tells me that - contrary to popular belief, we're actually getting it right almost all the time.

Despite quoting from you at the top, this isn't aimed just at you A-Pathetic. I think more people need to see that there's a massive difference between what people think we do/have done, and what has actually happened in the few weeks we've been doing this.

Fair enough. I'll stay out of this.

Am I the only one who is surprised at how little, in the grand scheme of things, Star Chamber has actually done on boards? Especially considering the constant uproar about their existence.

I don't want to clog up too much space with quoting your whole post, forgive me. I understand that the nudges are judgement calls. I was asking, in essence, for nothing more than to see if perhaps Micah would try to be a bit more aware of the nudges so that he might understand when there are times when it certainly doesn't (at least to myself) seem warranted. The problem with complaining is this: the nudges are usually done with normal logins. Micah states that normal logins are not 'Star Chamber' posts. If it's not a Star Chamber post, it's not Micah's concern and we really should be reporting it to him. Again, we are left to infer whether the nudge was meant as a Star Chamber threat, or a Chewers polite (or not polite) request to remain civil and/or on topic.
I personally would have been satisfied just to hear a "I don't see that, but I'll keep an eye out for it". Instead, anything brought up is dismissed immediately as if there is no way it has any validity. I've tried to remain open-minded and have amended my views based on feedback from Micah. Right now that's a one way street it seems.
And Dan, ditto on the fact that I quoted you. This is not all aimed at you.

Lastly, and unrelated to Dan's post altogether, why is it apparently impossible to have a civil conversation with people disagreeing without Joe Yes chiming in about whining? Yes, it's Nick's board. I think everybody is aware of that. I have yet to see a request from Nick that everybody keep any and all complaints to themselves. Quite the opposite, he has been open and asking for feedback. Providing that feedback does not mean that you hate Nick, hate CHUD and think that this place is ass. Providing feedback in a civil way is healthy, responding to that feedback with the grade school idea that you should just leave instead of sharing that feedback is of no help to anybody.

Nope, you're not the only one. The cracks about Star Chamber and even serious requests by non-SC members to close or move threads probably far outnumber any Star Chamber activities, 'nudging' included.

How about this:

Why complain about the concept of SC? Why not wait until the SC actually acts upon one of your posts? Then you can make a valid, concise argument about why it's out of line, and you just may find others who agree and convince SC to reverse the decision.

From what I've seen, though, it seems a pretty good chance you'll never get acted upon, anyway, unless you do something Jabbaesque.

Here's my 2 cents:

THIS IS JUST A MESSAGE BOARD!

People act like their actions here are life and death. They aren't. Life will go on. Django was banned 2 years ago. Life went on. Django came back. Life went on. Django is gone again. Life will still go on.

The same for Ludwig.

The same for Kirby.

I love all three of those guys. I really do. I think they contributed an awful lot to these boards and I will miss their presence. But will my enjoyment of this site diminish because they don't post anymore? No.

For all the talk of the few "Greats" on CHUD, there are a thousand more who I and others consider great as well. Imperator, it's people like you who make the message boards great. A community of people who respect each other, post when they have something meaningful to say, and stay away from the people who can't. That's what we should all strive for.

Anyone can get a name for himself by being the board assshole. But why would you want to?

Django has been complaining about CHUD well before SC came along. If posting here was really that bad of an experience, then he should have left on his own accord a long time ago.

And I don't mean that as "If you don't like Nick's rules get out." I mean, if something really and truly makes you that unhappy, you don't need it in your life. It's not worth it. It's just not.

For all the doom and gloom sayers out there, this is not CHUD's darkest days. Threads like this one pop up every single year. We've gotten through it before and will do so again.

The thing that I've found is that CHUD hasn't changed all that dramatically in the past three years. The people who post on it have. And it is those people who don't find the same enjoyment that they used to that cry out that there's a problem with CHUD as opposed to looking at themselves.

I started my post with this saying and I'll say it again:

THIS IS JUST A MESSAGE BOARD!

If it ever becomes more than that to you, take a step back, stop posting for awhile, figure out what really is important to you in life, and come back when you are ready to talk about movies, sex, and twisted humor.

Ahh, Luddy, my friend...

*sigh*

Well, shit. He said it better than I ever could.

Mike, I know how much the boards mean to you and in no way am I calling you a loser. But you are the exception to the rule. There are very few people who post on these boards who are friends with Chewers in real life as well. You made connections with people both on the boards and off and so they *are* your friends. Don't ever say that you have no friends again. You know that isn't true.

The personal connections you've made with people will always be there. The message boards are just a means to an ends. You *can* take away the message boards and keep the friendships. I stick by my original sentiment. If coming here really makes you that unhappy, just take some time away and come back when you are ready. We'll still be here for you.

But for the majority of people who post here, this *is* just a place to let off steam. To come after work (or during) and relieve stress. To talk about movies and whatever else is on our minds.

When people bring their personal shit to these boards, it makes it hard for the rest of us to enjoy it. And I don't mean stuff like birthdays, or new babies, or even the occasional "My life sucks so give me love" threads. I'm talking about the petty bickering, the "so-and-so won't talk to me anymore" threads, the grudges -- basically just stupid shit that drags the boards down.

With 5657 registered members, I'm still gonna say you guys are the exceptions. I'd say there are maybe a few dozen people that fit your criteria.

Hope you change your mind, Luddy.

You are good people and have been nothing but utter coolness to me.

Thankee.

hear ye.. hear ye...

this is it all over again CHARLES, there's almost no place left to go, i'm going in town tomorrow and the cut off's are on the market ready for the re-haul, i'll priority-post them two ye's next weeks time, promise, been busy with the regulars lately, vocation sheet, ye nose...

this just really sucks, it's just shamefull....

I keep stressing this point: the boards have over 5000 members, pushing 6000.

THINGS WILL NEVER BE LIKE THEY USED TO BE.

You simply can't have that many people on a message board and expect that board to stay the way it was when there were one or two thousand. It's just not possible.

The old CHUD boards were like a small Western town -- everybody knew each other, and you could get by with a sheriff and a deputy or two to keep an eye things, because there wasn't all that much trouble. But then the town grew as word got out of how great a place it was, and it eventually got so big that it became a city and needed a police force. And sure, some of the old-time residents raised some concerns that these police were going to come along and somehow abuse their power, that they would change the city they had lived in for so long, without realizing the city had changed already.

I was one of the most vocal critics of the Star Chamber when it first came out. I questioned, probed, hell, I even put "Who Watches the Watchmen" in my screenname. But just as I had the right to hold the Chamber to a standard, they had the right to prove themselves, and they have in my book.

The problem isn't the Chamber. It's the people who want this site to stay that sleepy little Western town inspite of the fact that the streets are full of newcomers looking to find their place. And there are two choices -- put out your hand and help them fit in, or move to the country and get away from the noise.

The growth of the boards is an indicator of the growth of the site, which can mean only good things for Nick. If we were still sitting around 2000 members, I bet you anything we wouldn't be seeing Nick on CNN or looking forward to a site re-design.

Bigger does not necessarily equal worse. It's up to us, the ones who have been around a while, to keep the boards a friendly place. If we really give a damn, it should be a task we take to with relish.

Or saurkraut, if you're so inclined.

Honestly, even with 6000 members, there's no reason we can't be a family. It just takes work.

Tony's coming to town? Oh shit I better hide my Domo-kuns and get out the good gladware. When's he gonna be in town?

Amen, Poxy.

And even with almost 6000 members, you can still spot the regulars.

Well said, Poxy.

We've lost words. Not like innocence — this was never paradise. And not like car keys, though they can be found in familiar places. But crowded-out we've lost them, in the shuffle and the push.

No big deal. We've only speak them.