CHUDChristians? Hello?

Do you honestly think she was correct in stating that Jesus is "off-limits" from satire or humor?

You're joking, right? ...right?

Right here is where the joke started.

No luck of no ridicule here Momo.

She may have been talking from the heart and not neccessairly the head about Christ being off limits to humour and such but I don't think it is cause for her email to be posted and laughed at. But that's how it goes nowadays. You don't become a Christian (or anything that is different) and don't expect ridicule. You'd hope people would keep it to a minimum but might as well wish for a tree that grows money.

Maybe I am crazy for beliving what I believe.

But I am perfectly fine with that insanity.

As an active Christian but with the same doubts and questions as anyone else (Christian, non-Christian) I do have to bite my lip at times. How else could Kurt Vonnegut be my favorite writer? We do have in pretty nice and safe in the USA and that's too bad sometimes because we never really have to put our faith to the test. Christianity ends up being a hobby religion not a guide for our lives. I don't point fingers cause I do it myself. BUT getting defensive doesn't help. Laugh at yourself sometimes. Laugh at Jesus? Not my bag but the more I push to stop others from doing so the higher the wall I build.

Devin wasn't putting up her Email for public mockery because she was a christian.
He did it because she behaved like an obnoxious moron.

It's wrong to assume most people here look down their noses at religious-types. First off, it's just a vocal minority. I'm sure you can point out every single person on the boards whom you think is anti-christian - considering the thousands registered, I'd say that's a small percent.

Beyond that, it's pretty thoughtless to say that a lot of people here are "anti-christian". For most of these people I'm willing to bet that they have family and close friends who are christian. Hell, I may be wrong, but I believe even Devin's father in involved with the Church. I doubt he hates him because of it.

It's when dopes like galvin start trying to enforce their christian views upon the whole population of the planet that people have a problem. When you try to tell me that being gay is wrong and murder is okay because the bible says so, you are a christian idiot.

If you CHOOSE to believe in things that I think are foolish, I am going to believe you're sort of foolish.

Gay people don't choose to be gay. Religion is fair game because it is a conscious decision.

If she was really being a christian she should not get mad about this stuff.

Though I am not going to totally dismiss this lady, she has some valid viewpoints and I pray that Devin thinks about that. You can't go around making fun of everybody and their beliefs and then when someone gets angry say, "Ohh I was just kidding, no harm no fowl.".

I don't think a person can be humiliated by a post in the forums if they don't read the forums.

As far as "looking down our noses", I have nothing but respect for your right to believe whatever you want, and your right to worship in a manner that you see fit. That does not mean, however, that I must automatically respect your beliefs, anymore than I have to respect a Bigfoot advocate because he sincerely believes in North American Wookies.

This may sound rather corny, but I have plenty of Christian friends (it's difficult NOT to in the South), and one in particular who comes from a seriously fundamental background. We have spirited debates all the time, usually ending with him saying I'll be burning in Hell for all Eternity and me saying he's a self-deluded superstitious idiot. But we're still close friends, and never take it personally.

In so many words, I understand why so many believe in a god, and I don't think less of them for their beliefs, even though I think they are dead wrong. Unless, like stated above, they try to pass laws or otherwise overtly influence MY life with their beliefs. Then the gloves come off...

"Ohh I was just kidding, no harm no fowl."

Laughing out loud.

She behaved neither obnoxiously nor moronically. She kept a pretty calm and level head. Some people actually believe that having their beliefs publically mocked is not a good thing. That must be shocking to some of you I suppose.

Now I could really care less if Devin makes fun of the things I believe in because his opinion means very little, but I will say in his defense that most of his articles concerning the passion have made more fun of Mel than Jesus and that has its place.

I suppose even satire of Christianity and its core tenets has its place. The life of Brian has some funny moments and there are other movies that have pulled it off well enough. But I think that those that try it should expect (and they probably actually hope for) some degree of outcry.

Back on the subject of the email she may have gone a little overboard. I expect to be made fun of for what I believe. When that happens I hope that I can keep a level head adn either ignore it or respond in a Christ-like manner. Devin apparently opened her eyes to that.

Regarding the hatred or mistreatment of Christians on this board specifically, I've been called a moron and a smattering of other names for expressing my beliefs but I must admit in those cases I probably gave as good as I got. The more vocal atheists round here are pretty good chaps in the main until they forget they Christians are people just like them and that we have a variety of beliefs and motivations. That happens when someone says something like "all christians hate x" or "all christians are stupid" or "all ..." well you get the idea. ANd when that happens I try adn remind them that those statements are made out of a mixture of ignorance and hate and again they usually back off.

I don't really feel hated or mistreated here so much as merely misunderstood. And I think considering the message of the Gospel and the ire that it has earned through the millennia, we as Christians should just get used to it. It doesn't hurt us ultimately and it's not going away.

And, just for the record, I do indeed think religion is outdated and rather silly.

Both of these statements are of course merely opinion and may or may not be true on a case by case basis.

Most religions/religious beliefs are.

Yet Christ was angered at the shopkeepers in the Temple because they were defacing a place of worship.

We worship Jesus. Is making fun of Him not something that get's you a least a little irked inside. Sure you may not have to act with agression but God doesn't fobid us righteous anger. But it's what you do with it that will be called into account. Sure she was wrong to tell him he couldn't make fun of the death of Christ because we do have free will but she did take a proactive response in voicing her anger over the item. She didn't threaten him(though he might find the praying for him threatening) just stated her opinion.

She did put herself out there though to the possibility of getting ridiculed but obviously she accpeted that. I applaude her for taking action if slightly misguided (and had she known the author herself she might not have bothered at all) and I guess there is a few things to learn about it.

Like I didn't know you were a Christian Momo or Gus.

Know that I now I call that a plus. Don't you think? wink

I believe you're thinking of the Jews. Christians have actually had it pretty easy for the last couple thousand years.

Oh you're right. We've never been killed, persecuted, or spat upon in any way. My mistake. Won't happen again.

Safe? It depends where you go. My brother lived with a Christian bishop in Eastern India for a time. Gangs, and you had to belong to one for the most part-the local police were essentially just a better armed gang for instance, would drag Christians out and murder them. Definetly an unsafe environment. Much of the world is such. As far as physical safety goes, at least in the Americas and Europe, it is safe. I will contend that it is becoming less safe socially though. This will continue and will become even more pronounced if Christians in the US really take a look at how counter-cultural our beliefs should be.

Oh, gimme a damn break. You can't say your God compels you to spread His word to everyone on the planet and then complain when some people don't exactly take kindly to it.

And as far as the numbers go, more people have been oppressed by Christians than have been the victims of oppression.

Well, I'm not really a CHUDChristian, but I'll state my opinion anyway.

I believe that everyone has the right to follow the idealogy and religion that they choose. I will not give people a hard time due to their beliefs; but if asked my honest opinion, I will at least try to support why I agree or disagree with a statement. I don't think religion is a bad deal, I just haven't "found" it.

I run into problems when people close their minds in the name of religion. When you blindly hate people for their sexual origin, stance on abortion, or personal beliefs I don't find that to be very Christian-like.

From my understanding of the religion (which I will admitt is small at best), Christianity preaches tolerance, forgiveness, and understanding. When I see people excluding me and others because we don't hold the same beliefs, it bothers me.

Granted, I understand that only a small amount of people are really like this. My good friend is very grounded in Christianity, but keeps her mind open at the same time. She doesn't shy away from things that are inappropriate, but seaks to find out more to understand the issues at hand. I assume that more people are like this than not.

My problem with the e-mail boils down to a lack of tolerance, on both parts. Devin is entitled to his own opinion, and so is Mrs. Brown. But both parties need to accept that there will be opinions that don't conincide (sp) with their own.

I hope I didn't make an ass out of myself with that one!

Not at all. Christians would have less trouble if they truly practiced tolerance, respect and love for their neighbor as we said we did. Socially we got used to be on top of the food chain and screwed it up. And, if we learn from this, it will be best darn thing that ever happened to modern Christianity.

Please. You try and make it sound like you've been persecuted all over the globe. Oh, I'm sure there has been some resistance to missionaries trying to change people's culture but that has less to do with the fact they were christiand and more to do with what they were trying to accomplish. There has not been an attempt at christian genocide.

In fact christianity has dominated most of the entire western world from Europe to both Americas.

Your persecution complex is cute, though.

Gus, this post earned you a Five Star rating from this atheist.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jacob Singer:
<strong>Oh, gimme a damn break. You can't say your God compels you to spread His word to everyone on the planet and then complain when some people don't exactly take kindly to it.</strong>

Give YOU a break? Gutt implies that in no ways have Christians had a hard time of it and I'm supposed to give you a break? I'm supposed to be OK that Christians have been killed because we try and spread our message? And you tell me to give YOU a break? Brother puh-lease.

<strong>And as far as the numbers go, more people have been oppressed by Christians than have been the victims of oppression.</strong>

I could argue that this opression has occurred under rulers that have used Christianity as a political tool but you'd take iussue with that. I'll say it anyway.

Well, if you wouldn't try to spread your message where it isn't wanted I doubt you'd be getting killed so "frequently". You don't see a lot of Klan members heading into Harlem to preach the gospel of white supremacy.

In other words, if you're going to voluntarily go to places where Christianity can be a death sentence, you don't have the right to complain about getting killed because of it.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Guttenberg Fan Club:
<strong>Please. You try and make it sound like you've been persecuted all over the globe.</strong>

Where did I say that? Persecution has happened. Muders have happened. Not all of those people ave been missionaries either.

<strong>Oh, I'm sure there has been some resistance to missionaries trying to change people's culture but that has less to do with the fact they were christiand and more to do with what they were trying to accomplish.</strong>

So it's OK to kill missionaries?

<strong>There has not been an attempt at christian genocide.</strong>

No that's largely true. Jews have been persecuted far more adn more have been killed. I'd never for a second dispute that. But to say that we've not been persecuted at all is at the very least short sighted.

<strong>In fact christianity has dominated most of the entire western world from Europe to both Americas.</strong>

I would disagree wit hthis statement but we'd be splitting hairs.

<strong>Your persecution complex is cute, though.</strong>

Thanks.

If someone sent me a hilarious "shame on you" e-mail I would have done the exact same. I can respect those who are religous, my parents are the most religous people you will ever meet (and my grandpa is a preacher), but if they sent an e-mail like that off to someone I would expect them to be ridiculed as well.

Simplest terms possible: if she can critique what he had to say, then he can do the same.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jacob Singer:
<strong>Well, if you wouldn't try to spread your message where it isn't wanted I doubt you'd be getting killed so "frequently". You don't see a lot of Klan members heading into Harlem to preach the gospel of white supremacy.</strong>

Well now just because we aren't wanted there by a government doesn't mean that we aren't wanted there period.

<strong>In other words, if you're going to voluntarily go to places where Christianity can be a death sentence, you don't have the right to complain about getting killed because of it.</strong>

Most missionaries I know that have lived/worked in hot zones go knowing that death is a possibility. They aren't "complaining, they go anyway. You'll pardon me if I still don't like it.

It's not okay to kill missionaries. However, killing missionaries isn't religious persecution. The fact is, they are being killed because they are attemping to change the whole culture of a people. Whether they are christian or buddist doesn't matter. They're not killed for their religion, they are killed for their actions.
Scott, disagreeing with that statement makes you ignorant. I know you follow the "only my way is the true christianity" bullshit, but you cannot argue with the fact that the christian faith (whether or not you agree with it) has dominated the landscape of Europe and the Americas (post-columbus).

And yet he didn't so much critique it as he made a locker room joke and showed it to people expecting a larf. He got plenty of attaboys and I don't suppose that should surprise me but it did a little. If he really wanted to "critique it" he should have tried sending back an email about how much he disagreed with her view and explaining why. I don't think he'd say what he was doing was critiquing so much as ridiculing.

Nobody said you had to like it, and no one was blaming the missionaries. We're just saying you can't have it both ways.

It's brave to stand in front of a tank, but you can't complain if the tank flattens you.

It's not that she told him she was offended, she told him that he could not criticize a film depicting the death of Jesus. Huh. I wonder if she is going to write to every critic that hates the film and plead with them to give their heart to god.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Guttenberg Fan Club:
<strong>It's not okay to kill missionaries. However, killing missionaries isn't religious persecution. The fact is, they are being killed because they are attemping to change the whole culture of a people. Whether they are christian or buddist doesn't matter. They're not killed for their religion, they are killed for their actions.</strong>

Their actions ARE their religion or an extension of it. Most missionaries I knopw personally aren't trying to change anyones culture. Few if any missionaries try to Westernize a culture any more. If someone shoots me for proselytizing that's religious persecution.

<strong>Scott, disagreeing with that statement makes you ignorant.</strong>

As I said we'd be splitting hairs. Governments who are either overtly religious or use their religion for political means (as ours wrongly does) have conqered. Christianity does not encourage conquering.

<strong>I know you follow the "only my way is the true christianity" bullshit,</strong>

Actually I believe that Catholics, Episcopalians, Baptists, Presbyterians, adn any host of Christian sects are in fact "in line". You don't know WHAT I really believe as you don't know me at all. You have an underinformed opinion colored by your opinion of Christianity as a whole.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jacob Singer:
<strong>Nobody said you had to like it, and no one was blaming the missionaries. We're just saying you can't have it both ways.</strong>

Actually Gutt is blaming the missionaries.

<strong>It's brave to stand in front of a tank, but you can't complain if the tank flattens you.</strong>

But I can complain that there are governments out there that will kill Chritian pastors (who are mostly made up of natives these days) and their flocks, missionaries and Bible publishers just like many people in the US complained about the people that have been run over by tanks for other reasons (ones you perhaps find more palatable).

Devin wasn't criticizing the movie (point of fact I don't know what he was criticizing) but she seemed to believe he was making fun of Jesus. It is as much her right to say that he shouldn't as it is Devin's right to do it (if he actually was). In any event his response to her was more than a little childish and as I said that doesn't surprise me at all, but the support he got did.

I don't know if you realize this (though considering what religion means to you, I think you do) religion is a HUGE part of a groups' identity and culture. Changing it means changing everything. I don't think you're ignorant to that fact, so I think you're trying to pull the wool over.

And no it isn't religious persecution. You just want it to be so you can still feel like christians are persecuted.

You'd think your faith would be strong enough to withstand a little ridicule. "Turn the other cheek" and all that...

What I find kind of funny is the idea that many American xtians have that if you preach the gospel and do God's will, then He won't let bad stuff happen to you. The NT shows this to be completely wrong-headed. In fact, didn't Jesus or Paul say that if you follow Him, you WILL be persecuted, you WILL be attacked, and in some cases you WILL be killed...the point being that you have to be willing to risk that and still live a Christ-like, forgiving, turn-the-other-cheek, help people out kind of life.

Which is why I say it's funny when xtians get upset b/c someone made fun of them. Stephen and thousands of other martyrs DIED for saying what they believed. Why are you so special you should be spared some inconsequential ribbing from nonbelievers?

Oh, and for the record, I'm an atheist, and Jesus is just all right with me. Lord, protect me from your followers. wink

I agree Scott.

We really are insulated from what Chinese Christians (and numerous other countries including the Middle East Christians) face everyday...

That said, I also don't mind the occasional "Put me up for the night" or "Peter, I can see your house from here!" joke.

Did Jesus have a sense of humor? Who Would Jesus Diss?

I think I'm gonna turn a pair of cheeks to you sir.

In the end, it all comes down to truth. For instance, I don't really have a problem making fun of Scientology, because it is, quite simply, not true. L.R. Hubbard was not a prophet, he was a fraud. On the other hand, I don't really like making fun of its followers; they aren't bad people, per se, simply deceived.

So, if the atheists and pagans are right, Jesus is up for grabs. A guy that would let himself be beaten to death rather than recant his claim to being the king of conquered Semites isn't all there up top. Have a laugh.

If we are right, however, if he was brutally tortured to death at no fault of His own, but because of our own sin, it ceases to be a laughing matter. In that case, there is only one appropriate action; to fall down at His feet and worship.

Paul wrote that the cross is foolishness to most of the world, but to we who believe, it is the very power of God for our salvation. As a result, we tend to treat the subject with some reverence, whereas the rest of the world looks upon it with something ranging from bemused tolerance to outright spite. Again, the question comes down to truth. Both sides of the debate are acting in a manner suitable to their world view. The only problem is that these world views are mutually exclusive.

As to the missionaries and persecution.

Those who claim Christians do not suffer religious persecution are simply blind. There are nations in this world where simply professing faith, without any form of evangelism, is grounds for execution.

I am also amused at the notion that, as soon as a Christian opens their mouth to proselytize, it is somehow all right to execute them. One of the greatest freedoms of our nation is that of free speech. This country is founded on the ideal that all should be allowed to have their say, and all should be allowed to make their own informed decision. Somehow, though, that all changes when the idea is Christ crucified. No, when someones dares mention Jesus, people should not be allowed to decide for themselves; the government should obviously protect its people from dangerous ideas by executing their proponents.

A simple fact: if a Communist nation executes you for preaching capitalism, it is political oppression, and if a Muslim nation executes you for preaching Christianity, it is religious persecution.

Good post.