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The Discourse Thread

post #1 of 23
Thread Starter 
I wouldn't say tensions have been at anything even approaching an all time high here in the Sewer, but people have been getting irritable. Let's talk it out.

If you're an aggrieved party, explain your side of the story here.
post #2 of 23
This is why Devin is the goods.
post #3 of 23
My two cents is this place doesn't need ANY more discourse right now.

It's just feeding the horrible fucking fire.
post #4 of 23
....and discourse burns very hot...
post #5 of 23
The problem is many people are expressing their views already but few are actually listening. This board has become but a volly of word and not discourse at all propelled by ego and pride. I can't help but be reminded of this quote from Devil's Advocate...
Quote:
You sharpen the human appetite to the point where it can split atoms with its desire; you build egos the size of cathedrals; fiber-optically connect the world to every eager impulse; grease even the dullest dreams with these dollar-green, gold-plated fantasies, until every human becomes an aspiring emperor, becomes his own God... and where can you go from there?
post #6 of 23
I came to Chud and met some wonderful people. I have had so much fun here. It is convenient to come to a message board, when your life is hectic. It gives you a place to unwind. Until tonight, I have always been very cautious in what I say to others. Because of the stress I am under at this time in my life, I became very verbal on the thread about the Chewer Forum. I really like Chris(Kiteless), and a lot of what I said was in defense of him. He and I have PM'd, and I know what kind of person he is. He is very considerate of others, and that is a virtue in my book. I, like Chris, have started some silly threads in the Chewer Forum. He isn't the only one at fought in that respect. I did it for fun, not to get attention. I think Chris, like myself, just wants to have some fun and make some new friends. I really appreciate all the people, I have gotten to know, on Chud.

I said some things in chat tonight that were way out of line. I was already upset, before I went into chat. To those that were there, I am deeply sorry.

I will close by saying I am human, and I make mistakes. There will not be anymore confrontations from me, and I think tolerance is the key to that.
post #7 of 23
I think the board as a whole have just got... weird. The movie threads, now, seem less important to many others. I don't know about anyone else, but I came here for movies. I dig CHUD because Nick, Mikah, Dave, Devin, Django, SJR, Dre, Beaks, Tony, Laugharn, Shelby, and a lot of others alike have the balance down between a love of movies and the articulateness to talk about them, with a great sense of humour. I mean, I don't know if it's just me, but the Main Sewer seems slightly maligned. Django is a pain in the ass sometimes, but I dig reading a shitload of his posts. The same with Devin. And a lot of others.

But I don't really seem to read them often enough. Which is why I loved the laserdisc thread, because it was just a wonderful little microcosm of people who really dig movies, and all the little geeky quirks that come with that. And it was awesome. Same with Khitch's asian thread.

This is just me rambling, so I don't know how much of this even applies with others. I mean, obviously there should be room for everyone to stretch their legs. But the balance, to me, has shifted. CHUD has a reputation for being a site for movie lovers. But more and more, the boards don't seem to reflect this. But that's just what I see from my sam-o-cam.
post #8 of 23
This place is six feet from the edge and we're thinkin'...maybe six feet ain't so far down.

Hold me now...
post #9 of 23
Quote:
Ladies Love Cool Django:
This place is six feet from the edge and we're thinkin'...maybe six feet ain't so far down.

Hold me now...
Now, Django, I love you in a warped, message-board kind of way, but CREED?
post #10 of 23
In a moment of darkness...CREED is the light which frees us.

God bless you, Scott Stapp...
post #11 of 23
*shudders because he may be right*
post #12 of 23
Heh...he may be onto something.
post #13 of 23
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Seahawk:
My two cents is this place doesn't need ANY more discourse right now.

It's just feeding the horrible fucking fire.
Talking always makes things better.
post #14 of 23
You would think it does, but then it really doesn't. Some people are just that hopeless.
post #15 of 23
Quote:
Seahawk:
My two cents is this place doesn't need ANY more discourse right now.

It's just feeding the horrible fucking fire.
Depends if people use this thread as a chance to sort things out, or just another venue for a clusterfuck.
post #16 of 23
Django, you deserve a GRAMMY AWARD.
post #17 of 23
Quote:
purple_hazed:
Django, you deserve a GRAMMY AWARD.
Nobody deserves a Grammy Award. That's like saying "You're a bastard."
post #18 of 23
Ah..I think you may be right 86. I will change that statement and say he deserves a "MTV MUSIC AWARD". He certainly has alot of flair, and I would like to see him standing on stage right beside Shikira. Whoohoo.
post #19 of 23
Quote:
THE DEATH OF DISCOURSE
In the past few months there has been a sharp rise in strident, vitriolic message postings here on CHUD. This isn't a new phenomenon on CHUD, or even in cyberspace; the Internet has always had incivility, hatred, and venomous blather rattling around its provinces -- just check any of the old Usenet newsgroups or, if you remember back far enough, bulletin board message systems. You'll find the same people, or at least the same postings with the same tenor, flaming away at every topic under the sun.

I'm sick of it, and I have long since stopped contributing to any of those threads, in part because I know it won't help moderate the tone downwards, and in part because I really don't have the time to engage in the swamp-slinging verbiage that often passes for discourse.

To put it simply, discourse is dead. Don't nod in agreement, thinking how much you miss good discussion; we're all a part of the problem, and we've all helped flatline discourse, myself included. So sit back; this will take a while and you may want to take notes.

First, a definition, just so you know what I mean by discourse. As Mr. Webster puts it:

DISCOURSE
Pronunciation: 'dis-"kOrs, -"kors, dis-'
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
1 archaic : the capacity of orderly thought or procedure : RATIONALITY
2 : verbal interchange of ideas; especially : CONVERSATION
3 a : formal and orderly and usually extended expression of thought on a subject b : connected speech or writing c : a linguistic unit (as a conversation or a story) larger than a sentence

The implicit concepts to take away from the definition are those of order, thought, and -- to a slightly lesser extent -- the ability to structure the discussion so that it can be understood.

"Just because you can talk, doesn't mean you can think." --CHUD quote of the day.

The blessing of the printing press was that anyone with an opinion could get it published. The curse of the printing press was that anyone with an opinion could get it published. The Internet and especially the message boards have taken this formula and blown it wide open in almost Big Bang fashion. Now anyone can publish anything, from shopping lists to atrocities too painful to read. This ability is free or nearly so, is usually unedited, unmoderated, or uncensored (depending on the venue), and is widely available.

Message boards commonly are the wide-open recipient for postings of any variety because the barrier to posting is practically nonexistent. It is commonly believed by your average Internet surfer that the ability to post automatically confers Great Thinker status -- a fallacy that is right up there with believing that owning a car means you automatically know how to drive. Talking, or in this case posting, does not mean you know how to think; it means you know how to type. Many people confuse the two, so much so that people cross-reference their own blather as evidence of great thinking. So much for discourse as an expression of thought; the first nail is driven into the coffin.

"Just because nobody understands you, doesn't mean you're a genius." --Unknown

Along with the nearly godlike ability of publishing anything far and wide via the Internet (can you imagine what such power would have meant in the Renaissance? the Middle Ages? ancient Babylon?) comes the overweening hubris of the artiste, the auteur, and the critic: "Because I have said it, it is holy!" Thus the prideful poster can say anything -- ANY thing! -- and claim it is the product of rational thought. The corollary is that, if the posting isn't understood, it must be the fault of the reader, not the author.

Read that last paragraph again. Look what it says. No matter how illogical, formless, scattered, disjointed, non sequiturish, specious, or just plain mad a posting may be, it's the fault of the reader, not the poster, for failing to grasp whatever it is that's being discussed! Can you imagine a more egregious display of ego? Yet just try suggesting to the poster that the material is less than logical and you'd think you suggested infanticide.

The problem with the zeppelin-sized ego posters who use this attack is that they never learned or mastered the forms and tools of discussion in the first place. They haven't done any of the following: read the great essayists and editorialists to learn how to persuasively communicate ideas; studied the great philosophers, historians, jurists, or religious thinkers in search of enlightenment or, at the least, to learn what's been discussed before; studied symbolic logic or the scientific method, to understand just what the difference is between an hypothesis and a theory, and why it matters; written a master's or doctoral thesis, a book, an article for a literary magazine, or anything involving pre-publication critique and editing; in short, they lack the ability to adequately (much less persuasively or masterfully) convey an expression of thought or idea. The communication failure lies on the poster, who is not a genius but attempts to claim the mantle of one.

Naturally, when the lack of discursive tools is pointed out, it's rejected flatly: "I don't need to do that; it's elitist crap." "What are you, some kinda pseudointellectual creep?" "Bugger a goat lately?" and so forth. Then the posters go on to use ad hominem arguments, paralogisms, personal attacks, and other niceties that are presented as discourse, and everything goes to hell. Nowhere is there any recognition that the ability to structure and sequence ideas might actually be of some use in the persuasive arts. The second nail is now in the coffin for discourse.

"Because it's old, it's good." "Because it's new, it's better." --Classical debate; author unknown

Finally, the opinions. *Everyone* has opinions. Frequently these are irreconcilable with other people's opinions. That's just the way of the world. But many posters don't see discussion as an exchange of ideas; it's seen as an intensely personal challenge or threat, one that must be exterminated at all costs.

This Sisyphean task is willingly undertaken by an astonishing number of people, most of whom should know better. They seem to miss a key concept behind discourse that's very simple: If you are engaging in discourse, you are merely exchanging business cards; you aren't agreeing to buy anything from the person. It should be a nice, arms-length discussion. A conversation, even.

Yet the war of words usually escalates from discourse to what is often mislabeled "debate" by those attempting to ennoble their postings. Again, a key concept is missed in the rush to start breathing fire at one another: Since the early days of Greece, debate's main purpose hasn't been to convert the opponent to your banner, but to persuade the other listeners to sign up with you and your cause. From high-school debate classes, to the floor of Congress, to the smallest, meanest court in the country, people debate for benefit of the undecideds, the judges, the voters, not for direct intellectual, moral, or spiritual victory over the opponent.

But on message boards this is inverted by those who aren't quite clear on the concept. "Debate" (read: argument) rages in attempts to generate an epiphany in the opponent, and any failure to create this moment of enlightenment immediately sets off a frightening jihad. This pattern should sound familiar because it's played out in so many threads that it would almost be comical if the content wasn't so mean-spirited, spiteful, and even barbaric. Discussion of idea has been lost in the cacaphony of verbal war. The third and final nail has been driven in the coffin.

"I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person." --Oscar Wilde

With discourse dead and off to be buried, I find that I just don't have the stomach to wade into the nihilistic mess that's left behind. It's a shame, because there are lots of interesting people with interesting ideas out there. But the boards just aren't the place to have a discussion right now. What's really sad is that newcomers see the flames, the hatred, the hyperinflated self-righteousness. Is it any wonder that posts from the older, more reasoned veterans have dropped off precipitously? It's not likely that everyone became frantically busy all at the same time -- more likely that it just isn't worthwhile to contribute at all right now without incurring flames of wrath.

So because I believe that it's not enough to bitch about a problem unless you're also armed with a proposed solution and the willingness to make it work, I make the following pledge:

When I post I'll work hard to keep the posts thoughtful, not thoughtless; interesting, not inciteful; informative, not ignorant; and helpful, not hateful.

I'd ask that we all try to do the same. It's the least we can do to bring back some civility to the boards; in time, I hope the discourse will return, whispering in our ears, "I'm not quite dead."

--Xymog

Xymog, that is the best post I have ever read on CHUD. Thanks.
post #20 of 23
And snap back to reality...oh here comes gravity...
post #21 of 23
Wow. I just read this, and it's an amazing thread. Why? Well this is the reason I try to stay away from the personal issues, or just put a small amount of input into these conversations. When the tempers flair like this, it's ridiculous. No matter how good the writer, you can't do the same with posts in a message board as you can with the spoken word, up close and personal. I've seen so many people take slight missteps and been deamed dumbasses and racists.

I've also seen some dumbasses post continuous dumbass posts, but I'm talking about the regulars.

It seems that too many people are forgetting why they come here. It's nice to see this thread recognize that. Thanks, Devin.
post #22 of 23
Quote:
Maxwell Demon (devin):
I wouldn't say tensions have been at anything even approaching an all time high here in the Sewer, but people have been getting irritable. Let's talk it out.

If you're an aggrieved party, explain your side of the story here.
Devin, I don't feel that I am an aggrieved party, but I know some folks that feel that way. I know that people will continue to disagree and I'm all for a good debate, as long as the disagreements don't turn into personal attacks. I think everyone agrees on that. I'm an extremely opinionated person. That's just the way I am. I'm not about to change who I am because of that, but I always try to remain respectful towards others opinions. Sometimes I slip, as we all do. It's human.

A couple of people have asked me why I don't go into chat. Part of it is because I'm afraid that if the boards are heated, chat would somehow be worse because it isn't public. I could very well be wrong about this, but I can't say because I'm not in there. My work days are hectic enough. This is where I come to wind down after a long day, so it's nice to not walk into a battle zone.
post #23 of 23
Good points, Avalon. Bring on the debates. I love a good debate, too. Fighting? Not so good.
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