So, I saw the "Battlestar Galactica" miniseries... - Page 2

Enjoyed... didn't love.

Hated the use of the same names. Why couldn't this just be 40 years after the original series or something?

I'm getting tonight's ep. taped for me.

Go watch the first series of G vs E and Roswell. Follow it up with a chaser of the Moore supervised second and in Roswell's case third series.

Only then will you understand why.

Or go see him talk in person. That works too.

The fucker likes to take other people's work and good intentions and run it thru the cheese cloth he calls a brain to produce what he thinks is good television. He wrecks shop for the sake of wreckin' it.

And that I can't stand.

Sorry, but this is utterly untrue, as the main thing SciFi exerted control over in Season 4 was the marketing. All the shitty ideas and bad execution came from David Kemper, the world's worst showrunner.

How many shows have died at Kemper's hand?

Cause Boy Ron is at Two and counting...

So, your argument is that ROSWELL and G VS E were perfectly good shows before he got his hands on them?

ROSWELL was a piece of shit before Ron got there, but he worked with the network(s) and did his best to raise the ratings, which were abysmal. He only did so because his attempts to get a series of his own up and running (e.g., Dragon Riders of Pern) failed, and Frakes asked him for help. And he worked hand in hand with Jason Katims on the show -- it's not as if he came in and just randomly asserted power here. He did his job.

In the case of G VS E, he was brought onboard to work with the Pate brothers, who had no prior experience with television. He wasn't the showrunner; indeed he was only a consulting producer. And I loathed the hipper-than-thou, self-congratulatory tone of it so much (ooh, checkout Emmanuel Lewis; we are so Tarantino-cool!) that I never watched past the first couple of episodes.

By all accounts these shows were validly cancelled due to flagging ratings. I've got several friends who've worked with Moore and I can tell you that he's well-liked by his peers -- other tv writers -- as well as trusted by actors (he's the one who brought Adrienne Barbeau and John Fleck to Carnivale). One of my friends, an excellent tv writer in her own regard, gave me a virtual ringside seat to what actually happened when Moore quit the Trek franchise. Put bluntly, he was blindsided by Braga, and some truly treacherous tactics. Secret staff meetings, jobs threatened for taking Moore's "side"--that kind of thing. You wanna hate someone, hate Braga -- he deserves it much more.

You can't compare him to someone like Kemper, who not only alienated two writing staffs but then went overbudget THIRTY MILLION dollars and resultantly attributed blame to SciFi, the network that had given him endless support. He'll never nab a showrunner job anywhere in the states again -- he's alienated far too many people and just generally made a mess of things.

If he didn't have such an excellent record of working well with folks, he wouldn't have been named showrunner on Carnivale, and by all accounts he is doing a terrific job. Make no mistake, it's HIS show, untethered by the contraints of a regular network.

He's not someone I'd EVER consider a hack. You want someone who fits that definitiion, then try Glen A. Larson.

I gotta say I totally loved this.

First of all, all this talk about the changes from the original series seems petty to me. If they had done a straight remake, there'd be just as much outcry over why they didn't do something original. Besides, this series almost seems to exist in a BG universe where the events of the original series happened all the way up to the pilot episode, then about 40 years went by. Think of it as an Elseworlds Battlestar Galactica if you will.

Not that I think it needs that kind of justification. I thought this was a compelling look at flawed, realistic human beings reacting to the end of their world. I liked that they didn't focus on what would have obviously been the eye-candy spectacle of planets and cities blowing up and instead stayed on the reactions of the characters to what was going on around them. Hearing the reports come in helped share the detachment of the characters, the chaos, the isolation, the sense of not knowing what was real and what was rumor. This isn't a show about effects, it's a show about people.

And so what if Starbuck is a woman and the Cylons have advanced and the Raiders don't look like Raiders. I thought this was a great set-up for a series (especially the final scene), and this is honestly the first thing Sci Fi has put on that I've been genuinely excited about since the second and third seasons of Farscape.

Okay, I had to struggle to find a lot of good things to say about the first two hours, but the second two were almost a polar opposite. At LAST we got the kind of huge battle they should've had around the Colonies, Starbuck really became an interesting character, and the last twist was a real nut-whacker. It seems like, once Ron got through the baggage of the Galactica legacy, he actually did have a fresh, interesting take. Really liked it, and it was as interesting as the first two hours...weren't.

Okay, my initial statement is off - I had seen the second half of the first two hours, and based my judgment on that.

That said and having seen the whole thing now, the first 40 minutes was a bit clunky in setup, but after that was just great.

Just great.

I agree with the sentiment that most of it was character-driven and it's their reactions that made it good in my eyes. The leaving behind of the sublight ships was as hard a moment to watch that I've seen in some time, especially on TV.

Sure, some moments worthy of a groan or three (particularly anything requiring kissing) and some obvious plot points concerning the paranoia once it's discovered that Cylons look like people. The ending for shock value being a detriment as well.

But I really enjoyed the character interaction, the shaky-cam work and subdued sound on the space battles, the wonderfully enigmatic nature of the Cylons, and the interesting machinations taken to explain the decision made to run, which I have never been comfortable with in the original.

Good revisions of the existing characters I thought (especially Tigh) and some thoughtful homage in the special effects shots made this a nice update to an iconic yet fairly average television series.

Memo to Sci-Fi nerds. Not to worry. If skanky frizzy-headed blond numbers aren't you thing...our new sleeper agents now come in the Hot Asian variety.

I personally can't wait for the episode where Boomer realizes she's a Cylon and fights valiantly against her programming so in the end Boxey's love can show her the way.

Guess the fucker is a creative genius after all.

Too bad this won't last as long as Roswell did...

Once again, Django is correct.

Episode 1 gets made out to be the worst movie ever yet this heap is getting blowjobs right and left.

Amazing.

Moore lost me with the Cylon slut. There is no way in hell an ugly porn-star wannabe skank is more interesting than the silver bots trying to kill humanity. lame.

Why did she need to kill a baby?

I have yet watch hour two. The first hour was so fucking dull and lifeless that I doubt my take will change.

Again, changing Starbucks/Boomers genders did absolutely nothing except remind fans why they dug the originals in the first place. Stupid.

Katie Sackoff is a major cutie. I hope to see her in better stuff.

The biggest gripe of all is that the friendship trio of Apollo/Starbuck/Boomer is gone in favor of a pack of smart-mouthed, whiny morons.

Someone please wake Olmos up.

Ugh.

New Battlestar Galactica makes Lorne Green's ghost cry.

I got news for you -- I watched a bunch of old episodes of Galactica on Sci Fi over Thanksgiving weekend.

And they were complete and utter shit.

If bad jokes and cliched dialog are what constitutes "friendship," I'll stick with the new take, thanks.

You are absolutely correct. I didn't watch the show when it originally aired, and the re-runs over the weekend confirmed why I didn't -- the original show is total garbage. Only nostalgia-blinded idiots could possibly think it was even a competent program, let alone actually good.

I don't know. While they're pretty dated, I really enjoyed the drama of the first five episodes - and parts of the return of the Pegasus - I thought they worked like gangbusters (Boxey and the daggit aside). One thing that I really like about it is you get a palpable sense of tragedy striking a civilization. I really do miss that in the new Galactica. The scene where the fleet leaves the survivors behind was pretty powerful, but there's nothing that's on the level of this exchange from the original, when Adama's son dies:

"What was that?"
"That was my son, Mr. President."

But, after those first five hours, yeah, you're absolutely right. It's hopeless, cheesy shit.

I think it's everywhere in the new Galactica. The scene where the survivors on Caprica swarm around Boomer's downed ship, the scene where they're forced to vent crewmembers into space to put out the fires aboard the Galactica, the scene of the 43rd person in line of succession being sworn in as president, there's a bunch more, they all have this sense of desperation, of ending.

It's there, definitely, but it's a scope thing. Something's clearly happened, something awful, but the one thing that the original had that's largely omitted here is utter shock and disbelief. Billions of people died, it's like Hiroshima and Nagasaki and 9/11 but a hundred million times worse, everyone has lost at least someone. But they all seem to be dealing fairly well. More grief. More open despair, more misery on the ragtag fleet.

I liked what they did have a lot (and the stuff that worked the best in this context usually came through the Roslin character), but while it felt like a tragedy happened, it didn't quite feel like universal armaggeddon - or the have the personal impacts of the same. In the original, there was a direct entry into the horror, you had Adama losing his wife AND his son. (I think I miss here because it was the stuff that worked the best in the original... "...No. She was here.") People died all over the place, by the bushel. I liked what Moore gave us, but it felt more hands-off than I would've liked.

It's not a huge thing, it just kept me from accepting the first two hours. But boy, am I happy with the second two.

Definately a good start. The desperation everyone is feeling the way a number of characters are more worried about themselves than anything else. I like the way their way of life is being set up as similar but not exactly the same as ours. I really loved the ending where Adama admits he doesn't even believe in Earth, its just a rallying point for the masses. This needs to be turned on full power and given some room to breath. I really think it'll take off.

Craptacular!

This sucked a big knob.

The only cool stuff was the space battle, and actually seeing some robots. But all the rest was lame and yawn inducing. Glad I was on the computer, cause I would have fallen asleep watching this thing.

This series can only get better.

Robots that look like humans. Cheapest and most tired sci-fi trick in the book. For that, I hate this series. Bring back the toaster ovens.

I never said the old show was good, I just said it was better than this new boring mess. The new series is full of its own cliches, but with no entertainment value. Entertaining does not always mean quality. Give me cheese over this PC tripe.

To hell with the sluts. Ditto to the toaster ovens.

Old Galactica is good. It was state of the art for 1978. It was about loyality, friendship, pushing on against tragically. It had characters we could care about who were real human beings, not a bunch of genre cliches.

Sure it had tin robots and a monkey in a dog suit. But if that's all you can see when watching it today...I truly feel sorry for you.

What puzzles me is this mentality that somehow anything that is old is cheesy and out-dated. Because that's not what Battlestar 78 was. Did it have moments? Yes, all shows do. But at the core it was a serious show with a beating heart.

Which is something no Ron Moore show has ever...or will ever have.

Just because you light the set for mood doesn't mean it has one.

If you like the new one, great.

But don't piss on the old one. Which will never be eclipsed by this one. Never.

It doesn't take a nostalgia-blinded idiot to see that this new series blew right from the start. The big question is why make a new series of you're not going to actually take a good idea and improve it?

And again, nobody said the first series was anything monumental...aside from the mainstreaming of motion-control systems and other techniques which are the bases for just about every visual effect done today.

Oh, and the first use of a monkey in a mechanical dog suit...thanks for reminding me!

I thought it was decent.

Could have been better, Could have been worse.

Sure, FX-wise, but that’s about it. On a storytelling level, it was disappointing old hat even then. All it really had to offer was elements stolen from Star Wars, Chariots of the Gods, and Twilight Zone episodes like "To Serve Man." I was seven years old when Galactica premiered, and I was filled with excitement for it, excitement that died pretty quickly. I think that can be said of most viewers at the time, since it didn’t even last to a second season. And this was in a time where the ratings system was quite different.

See, BG was really just an old fashioned 60's show with highfalutin' special effects. In terms of writing, acting, or the use of science fiction, it didn't come close to shows like Twilight Zone, Outer Limits, or Star Trek. It had a very limited and plebeian imagination. It really WAS "Wagon Train in Space". And have you ever tried to watch "Wagon Train"? It's no "Gunsmoke", let me tell you that.

I seem to recall the basic array of swaggering, roguish heroes, dark brooders and hot chicks in tight clothes, as well as plotlines stolen wholesale from movies like The Ten Commandments and The Guns of Navarone. Oh, and we had hot alien babes and such right out of Star Trek.

What about those who, even at the time, recognized it for what it was? To be fair, the original show was ludicrous, in premise and execution, but it kind of reveled in that, and people kind of responded--could have been a hit if they'd had a better gameplan, and lower budgets. And writers who, you know, actually knew what they were doing, rather than just dropping in the latest pop-cultural fads.

Is that serious beating heart present when Patrick McNee (wearing a white mu-mu) shows up as the Space Devil? Sorry, but the cheesiness has nothing to do with its age – plenty of older projects have held up incredibly well. Original BG doesn't hold up well at all, EXCEPT as camp nostalgia. Ed Wood with a bigger budget--only not as much fun.

You'd have some points if you weren't bringing them up to prove how much better Moore's version is. But since you are...null and void, buddy.

Null and void.

Bringing originality into a Ron Moore discussion is bad business, Son. Especially with the following on example:

LOOK! Hot Asian Chick!

LOOK! Hot Blond Bimbo!

LOOK! Chick version of skirt-chasing, cigar-chompin' anti-hero!

...Next Week on Battlestar Galactica...Starbuck develops a 'very-special bond' with a badly-battered Socialator she rescues seconds before she's about the be stoned for being space trash.

LOOK! Apollo's Daddy Doesn't Love Him!

...Tonight on a very special Battlestar Galactica...A shuttle carrying Captain Adama and Commander Adama crashlands on a rogue asteroid where they are forced to patch up their differences and finally come to terms with Rick Springfield's death...

LOOK! Gratuitous Cancer Subplot!

...Tonight on a very special Battlestar Galactica...President Rosen's shuttle crashes while in route to the medical frigate. Will special guest star Vivica A. Fox find her in time?

I personally can't wait to see the episode when Col. Tigh has to help a young deck officer come to terms with his drinking if not only so Tigh can finally kick the hootch collaterally, but so he can say the following:

"Fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go thru life, Soldier."

If any of the above - all of which either transpired during the pilot or had the seeds implanted during it - comes to pass...you're goddamn right I'd rather sit through a two-part, snow bound rip-off of The Dirty Dozen with Mutha Fuckin' Richard Lynch.

You lose the argument of bashing monkeys in robotic dog suits when you're praisin' humanoid robots who drop their cellophane trau so they can fuck like monkeys in robotic mink suits...

:You'd have some points if you weren't bringing them up to prove how much better Moore's version is. But since you are...null and void, buddy.

Uhm, where in that last post did I say how much better the new version is? Personally, at the conclusion of night 2, I didn't care for it much at all, and it really seemed like they were attempting to remake Space: Above and Beyond with the BG brandname slapped on.

I was simply adressing some thoughts on the original show, which is about as far from sacred canon as one can get. And I DO have some points. So I win the "Original Galactica was half-baked cheese regardless of a new version or not" argument.

Jesus, rant much? Ron Moore is the devil, yada yada yada...uh-huh, I get it, man.

But Sean...it's Vivica A. Fox for god's sake!

Hmm, well let's see here.

The original BG created a whole new universe to occupy, with new language (microns and yarns and felgercarb, oh my!) and mythos whereas the new version set itself up a bit more like our own perceived society and its technology, so the original scores a point for creativity and is more science-fictiony than its follower.

However one might argue that the new take makes for more familiar storytelling, metaphor and allegory, making it more compelling to watch for the non-fan. One might also argue that the new version took the easy way out in that respect.

One thing I'd like to bring up is the way both versions take on the basic premise of the story -- back when it first came out in 1978, we geeks had three science fiction shows on television to watch: Star Trek in reruns, Space: 1999 in syndication, and Battlestar Galactica (some got to watch Doctor Who as well). David Gerrold once took all three shows' premises to task in a Starlog magazine column he wrote at the time, which was that Space:1999's premise was more "Wagon Train to the Stars" and ludicrous to boot - the moon, traveling fast enough to hit a different solar system every week; Star Trek's was one of hope and exploration; and Battlestar Galactica's was a simple premise of "Here come the bad guys! Let's RUN LIKE HELL!!!"

He didn't much like Galactica for that reason, and I'm inclined to agree with him.

Be that as it may, running away *is* the premise of this show, however the devil being in the details, I feel the newer version does a much better job explaining why that decision was made, and the reluctance and eventual determination of all the characters involved surrounding the events and conclusions of the story told.

In fact, I could criticize the new version for making ALL of its characters a bit too reluctant, with the exception of Starbuck: Adama is reluctant to flee, wishing to fight instead; Tigh is reluctant to fight, preferring the bottle and card games on a museum ship; Apollo is reluctant to be Adama's son; the President is a low-level bureaucrat forced to take charge; Baltar is the villain, and yet he denies it; et al.

What I find amusing about the hate for this show (not necessarily here) is that it's based on things that the story and execution isn't about: Some folks just can't look past that skanky blonde or the gender changes or the fact that Sci-Fi cancelled Farscape or that B&B have ruined Star Trek.

To be honest I could really dislike this show for casting off the truly interesting mythology the original created -- I would have preferred that it had gone that route and really turned things on their collective heads and been controversial as all hell, but it didn't and I still don't hate it for that.

I mean, it tells the same basic story in a different way, it certainly has some parts worthy of a groan (as did the original), the reason the Cylons hate humans has a bit more backbone now and makes a bit more sense, and in true television fashion gives a bit of fan service.

Big deal. It was enjoyable enough, and I can't believe I've spent this much time writing about it.

Nice post, Juxta.

Well now I'm curious. Stuff I'd read about this led me to think it'd suck hard and that it'd thrown away all the cool stuff from the original series. And there was a bunch. But if there's new cool stuff, I'll give it a shot should it be shown here.

I hope they took some care in the details this time. The original was all over the place. It'd throw in Space Words to sound amazing, but they made no sense. I could never figure out if Earth was close or far or what because they'd talk about things being "beyond this galaxy. Perhaps even beyond our system" and stuff like that. Lazy writing. Hopefully they either pay attention or ignore such things altogether this time around.

Still, I'd like to see Hatch's ideas on the screen as well. His premise was pretty funky.

Ok, so I decided to give this thing another try in the all-at-once format last evening. Difficult to watch given the lack of actual likeable characters. I like and despise the quick zoom effect. Like because done once it works to dramatic effect. Despise because they over-used it.

Part steadicam and part hand-held made the deck scenes a bit schizo.

Yeah, those slutty Cylons really make for an exciting villian.

Good writing there. Creative too!

Tellya what...hot Cylon babe had me goin' too...but I'm so damned easy...

Would Eddie Jimmy Olmos be returning for the series, if there is one?

Since he was the best thing in the mini...probably not...

Hey. Don't fuck with the Stu Phillips/Glen Larson theme.

Why do I not like the new BG?

- It looked cheap
- No sympathetic emotions
- No characters I can relate to
- CGI will never be as cool as the models
- No Maren Jensen
- No Jane Seymour
- No Laurette Spang
- No Anne Lockhart
- No cool egyptian mythology
- Bland production design
- Boomer is a goddamn Asian Robo Hottie
- No monkey in a dog suit
- No Land Rams
- No kick ass turn table bridge
- No Exploding Rick Springfield
- No come back like "That was my son, Mr. President"
- Real cuss words

Because it was goddamn Daggit Shit.

Enough for you?

Sometimes I feel like a monkey in a dog suit...

And...

-No stunt guys in chromesuits
-Sex scenes
-"Coffee"
-Cylon raiders that look like a rip-off of the Batwing
-No cool opening narration
-No Imperious Leader
-Baltar is a pussy and not a power hungry snake
-No Swords for the Cylons
-Contrived pathos for the bland characters
-No on-screen annilation
-Uninspired costumes
-Galactica is a museum
-Old names are now their stupid call signs
-No "Lucifer"-like Cylons
-Humanity built the Cylons

So this aired in Canada last weekend.

I loved it. Loved it.

"- It looked cheap"

Not really. The old one looks hokey and plastic. Silver blankets don't keep you warm, no matter how futuristic they look.

"- No sympathetic emotions"

Well, sez you. Adama watching Apollo apparently die was pretty cool, so was Capt. Lloyd (?) collecting dog tags in the morgue.

"- No characters I can relate to"

That's just you. There were plenty to choose from.

"- CGI will never be as cool as the models"

Have you watched the old show lately? The model work gets boring fast because it's usually stock footage from the movie. And the vipers still cruising along at top speed but tumbling at the same time was far and away one of the cooler effects shots I've seen.

"- No Maren Jensen"

"- No Laurette Spang"

These are the characters you relate to?

"- No Anne Lockhart"

Okay, you might have a point here. But Boomer's easy on the eyes, as is Cally the Cute Viper Tech.

"- No cool egyptian mythology"

This was the neatest part of the old show, but the new one didn't suffer without it.

"- Boomer is a goddamn Asian Robo Hottie"

So? Boomer has a job other than sidekick this time around. The horror.

"- No monkey in a dog suit"

So watch Fox news or something.

"- No Land Rams"

Speaking of looking cheap....

"- No kick ass turn table bridge"

Turntable sets kick ass? A set with a cheap motor under it was one of the reasons the old show was better? Come on!

"- No Exploding Rick Springfield"

The impact of which disappeared in 5 minutes.

"- No come back like "That was my son, Mr. President" "

And what a come back that was, too. Yeah, Adama was really torn up over the loss of his son and it showed. Yawn.

"- Real cuss words"

So what?

Don't tell me you thought the original, "our-race-is-down-to-tens-of-thousands-so-let's-boogie-with-the-Ovions-and-play-cards" was better.

Tigh and Starbuck actually hating each other is much more interesting than Tigh looking sideways at him and calling him a scamp, which is about as far as it got on the old show.

Apollo and Adama having bad blood over Zack's death years after the fact is easy to believe then his never being mentioned again.

John Colicos' Baltar sold out the human race...why? So he'd get the chance to cackle and smile evilly? Because he believed the Cylons wanted to off everyone but him? Right. No, Baltar thinking he was committing corporate espionage and not caring about it is much easier to believe.

You didn't want to watch the new show at all, did you? You wanted to watch the old one again. Do you miss the flying motorcycles and the boyscouts too?

My only beef is that I have a problem believing TWO cultures would come up with something as useless and uncomfortable as the necktie.

Great post, Seabee.

Thanks. I didn't think I'd like it, but I was just impressed to pieces with the show.

Well, even though I didn't enjoy it, one question still lingers for me.

Anyone know if sci-fi is picking this up yet or not? They keep delaying any kind of announcement either way, so far. Anybody hearing any rumblings out there?

According to Cinescape Sci-Fi ordered 6 episodes - although there's been no official announcement from the network

http://cinescape.com/0/editorial.asp...8&obj_id=40649

Bullshit. In the 70's the whole Corporate thing wasn't an issue.

Yes, Baltar's betrayal in the 70's was believable! Why?

BECAUSE HE WAS A FUCKING TRAITOR!!

That's why. The concept is a lot older than you can possibly believe or obviously comprehend.

Calm down, man. I imagine Seabass understands the concept of "traitor" just as much as you do.

I know...I haven't posted lately and I need to pound the keys a bit before pounding nails on the house. New East wing and all that...

Traitors need motives. Colicos' motive was he was the Bad Guy. Good enough for me when I was a kid, but I like the new Baltar being played for a fool better.

This thread made me LOL.

Interesting look into the past. Look at all the hate toward Helfer for being a pretty blond.