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Offseason Baseball Trades/FA signings - Page 3

post #101 of 359
Fuck, when I think of all the pitchers Yankees have blown money on over the past 20 years, all those chumps from Rick Rhoden to Ed Whitson to Britt Burns to Mike Witt - and to let a guy go who has won 149 games for you, who has proven that he can pitch under pressure in Yankee Stadium in the World Series?

This guy would've won 250 games and gone into the Hall of Fame wearing a Yankee hat. Bullshit.
post #102 of 359
Quote:
Originally posted by Subotai
Fuck, when I think of all the pitchers Yankees have blown money on over the past 20 years, all those chumps from Rick Rhoden to Ed Whitson to Britt Burns to Mike Witt - and to let a guy go who has won 149 games for you, who has proven that he can pitch under pressure in Yankee Stadium in the World Series?

This guy would've won 250 games and gone into the Hall of Fame wearing a Yankee hat. Bullshit.
Hope you get the YES Network up there in Toronto. I can't wait till Mike and the Maddog rip George Steinbrenner a new one at 1PM ET.
post #103 of 359
Daryl Ward signed a minor league deal with the Pirates? Yipes, doesn't seem like that long ago the Astros were huge on him and trying not to include him in any trades.
post #104 of 359
Quote:
Originally posted by A-Pathetic
I've been hearing that for a while, and that's one of those rumors that just makes too much sense to not be true. Yankees couldn't care less about Brown's contract, and Weaver will actually probably pitch well again outside of NY.
Yeah, the pressure could be off Weaver, pitching in LA for a non-playoff team. Or he could become the next Andy Ashby.
post #105 of 359
Man, Pettite counter-offered 4 years $52 million and the Yankees turned it down? The NY Yankees actually didn't sign a guy due to money? Not to mention that they could have gotten the guy before he became a free agent for less if they just showed him any interest.

Update:
You know, of all the losers so far this offseason, the one that comes to mind is the St. Louis Cardinals. They've done nothing, and all they see is the Astros and the Cubs bulking up around them.
post #106 of 359
Thread Starter 
Yankees counter FAST
pending some fine tuning Kevin brown is a Yankee. They better hope he stays healthy.

the Cardnials are losers. They have added no pitching. They just might slip to 4th place this year. I wouldn't be too worried about the Asstros. killer B's are aging and Pettitte isn't pitching in a very pitcher friendly place. And look what happened to Griffey when he went home.

Who are the other losers? ESPN2 had it right when they said the entire AL Cetral. They have signed nobody while the AL East bulks up and the AL West adds arms.
post #107 of 359
Rumor has the Dodgers turning Jeff Weaver right around and trading him for JD Drew from the aforementioned Cards. If this is true, this is a smoking payroll cut by the Dodgers. They acquired 2 prospects as well as some cash to help cushion the fat Weaver contract, and then turn around and dump Weaver anyway. It certainly makes sense from the Dodgers perspective as they're shopping for bats anyhow (and with their market the fact that they aren't in the market for Vlad is downright criminal), and I know the Cards can't wait to dump JD.

The other rumor is Weaver for Frank Thomas which seems to make no sense from the Dodgers perspective, so that's probably the right one.
post #108 of 359
Well in my workplace I have a good friend of Weaver here and according to him all that he has heard is that Weaver has to pass the physical and he will be a Dodger. He's gonna talk to him tonight and see what he says so it certainly can be a possiblity.

I'll see tomorrow what they talked about and let you know...
post #109 of 359
Quote:
Originally posted by Anyawatchin Angel
the Cardnials are losers. They have added no pitching. They just might slip to 4th place this year. I wouldn't be too worried about the Asstros. killer B's are aging and Pettitte isn't pitching in a very pitcher friendly place. And look what happened to Griffey when he went home.
I wonder how well Pettite will do there, but come on... don't dump on Griffey, it's not his fault he's as brittle as Antonio Mcdyess' knees.

If Griffey could ever play a full season in that band box, I have no doubt that he has at least one big season left in him.
post #110 of 359
Some very interesting moves. Makes me chuckle that Vina signed with the Tigers.
post #111 of 359
I know there are a lot of Yankee-haters out there, but let me (using NY Post's Mike Viccaro's words) tell you how it feels to be me this morning:

Quote:
One night, you go to bed and you have a clubhouse that is the envy of every baseball fan ever born, a mixture of talent and character, a gentle blend of grit, guile and guts, a team even the most ardent Yankees-hater has difficulty truly loathing.

The next morning, you wake up, and Tino Martinez has become Jason Giambi; David Cone and Orlando Hernandez have become Javier Vazquez and Jose Contreras; Paul O'Neill has become either Gary Sheffield or Vladimir Guerrero; Scott Brosius has become Aaron Boone; and Andy Pettitte has become Kevin Brown.
Not much heart left. Not many Yankees left. Gonna be a long winter for us Yankee fans.
post #112 of 359
The Phillies' offseason could be getting that much better.

There's a rumor that I know won't happen but is circulating nonetheless.

It's a 3-way deal between the Phillies, Red Sox, and Rangers.

Jimmy Rollins (PHI) and Bobby Abreu (PHI) go to the Red Sox along with Alex Rodriguez. And the Phillies get from the Red Sox Nomar Garciaparra and Trot Nixon. Yeah right, but wow...if that really happens the Phillies are truly gonna be the team to beat in the N.L. East.
post #113 of 359
It's too bad the Red Sox just don't say "fuck it" and trade for ARod, keep Nomar (move him to second), get Foulke, and then offer Vlad a contract. Hell, it's only money, and with that team, they'd make plenty of it. Plus, a new stadium would be almost guaranteed as that team (potentially) would do very well.
post #114 of 359
Quote:
Originally posted by Michael 'Verbal' Rabattino
The Phillies' offseason could be getting that much better.

There's a rumor that I know won't happen but is circulating nonetheless.

It's a 3-way deal between the Phillies, Red Sox, and Rangers.

Jimmy Rollins (PHI) and Bobby Abreu (PHI) go to the Red Sox along with Alex Rodriguez. And the Phillies get from the Red Sox Nomar Garciaparra and Trot Nixon. Yeah right, but wow...if that really happens the Phillies are truly gonna be the team to beat in the N.L. East.
Verbal, I'm confused. Who is Texas supposedly getting back in this deal? Why would Boston want Rollins and A-Rod? If Boston landed A-Rod and Abreu then the Yanks would go out of their gourds, which would certainly be worth seeing. I'm a huge Abreu fan.
On the Philly side of things, I can't see why you'd be excited to see that potential deal. I'd rather have Rollins/Abreu than Nomar/Nixon. Nomar still needs to shake his injury prone rep, and I'm not convinced he'll ever get back to truly being the player he was. Nixon is one of those players that teams just fall all over and I don't get it. Abreu is tons better, and Rollins is more than passable at SS.
post #115 of 359
Quote:
Originally posted by Rob Rocco
I know there are a lot of Yankee-haters out there, but let me (using NY Post's Mike Viccaro's words) tell you how it feels to be me this morning:

...

Not much heart left. Not many Yankees left. Gonna be a long winter for us Yankee fans.
Oh, I understand your pain. But you'll be hard pressed to get any sympathy from anyone. This is quite possibly the first time during this Yankee run that they've taken a hit. Time to grin and bear it like everyone else.

Worst thing is, you act as if it's the end of the world having to throw out a rotation of Mussina, Vazquez, Brown, Wells and Contreras/Lieber. Give me a break.

Quote:
Originally posted by Michael 'Verbal' Rabattino
Jimmy Rollins (PHI) and Bobby Abreu (PHI) go to the Red Sox along with Alex Rodriguez. And the Phillies get from the Red Sox Nomar Garciaparra and Trot Nixon. Yeah right, but wow...if that really happens the Phillies are truly gonna be the team to beat in the N.L. East.
Shit... if the Phillies pick up Garciaparra and Nixon... yeeesh. Sure, I'd rather Abreu over Nixon, but not by anywhere near the degree that I would rather Garciaparra over Rollins. .263AVG and a .320OBP from a lead off hitter? Ick.

Oh, and A-Pathetic... my guess is Texas is getting Manny, like every other incarnation of this deal.
post #116 of 359
Quote:
Originally posted by MoNkaholic
Oh, and A-Pathetic... my guess is Texas is getting Manny, like every other incarnation of this deal.
Which still leaves the question of why the BoSox would want Rollins and A-Rod. If Boston is concerned about what to do with Nomar and A-Rod, why throw another SS into the mix? I think if the Manny/A-Rod deal does happen to go through it's a foregone conclusion that the BoSox turn Nomar around for Washburn (or Ortiz if they're willing to spice the deal up a little more).
The whole Philly trade looks like one of those wishlist deals a sportwriter thought up. From what I've seen of Epstein so far he's a pretty sharp guy, I just can't see him grabbing another SS without knowing exactly where the previous SS is going.
post #117 of 359
According to rotoworld:

White Sox GM Ken Williams rejected the trade that would have sent Jeff Weaver from Los Angeles to Chicago for Frank Thomas. Smart move by Williams. A Paul Konerko-for-Weaver deal would make more sense, but there haven't been any rumors indicating that that might be a possibility.

No idea what their source is as they aren't crediting it and the Sun Times doesn't have any info on it.
post #118 of 359
Quote:
Originally posted by A-Pathetic
Which still leaves the question of why the BoSox would want Rollins and A-Rod. If Boston is concerned about what to do with Nomar and A-Rod, why throw another SS into the mix? I think if the Manny/A-Rod deal does happen to go through it's a foregone conclusion that the BoSox turn Nomar around for Washburn (or Ortiz if they're willing to spice the deal up a little more).
The whole Philly trade looks like one of those wishlist deals a sportwriter thought up. From what I've seen of Epstein so far he's a pretty sharp guy, I just can't see him grabbing another SS without knowing exactly where the previous SS is going.
Well, Boston needs a 2B now that Todd Walker is gone, so I have to assume they believe Rollins can switch positions. Would still rather Washburn and Kennedy from Anaheim if I were a RedSox fan though.
post #119 of 359
Apparently Roger Clemens is in preliminary negotiations with the Houston Astros. Sure, Clemens and Pettite wont be anywhere near as productive as they were in NY... but a rotation of Oswalt, Miller, Pettite and Clemens wouldn't be so bad in the NL central... especially with the fireballers they have in the pen.
post #120 of 359
Thread Starter 
I heard disturbing news the Yanks might sign Tejada and put him at 3rd. This money burst by the Yanks and BoSox need to stop. It really isn't fair to some medium to small market teams.

Clemens a Asstros? I doubt it but that would make the Asstros tough. But Roger would have to bat and he would no longer be a head hunter. And if it happens the Cubs definatly need to counter.
post #121 of 359
Quote:
Originally posted by MoNkaholic
Well, Boston needs a 2B now that Todd Walker is gone, so I have to assume they believe Rollins can switch positions. Would still rather Washburn and Kennedy from Anaheim if I were a RedSox fan though.
They need to get ARod, then switch Nomar to second. What the hell, it's only money.

Oh yea, then sign Vlad, too.
post #122 of 359
Quote:
Originally posted by MoNkaholic
Well, Boston needs a 2B now that Todd Walker is gone, so I have to assume they believe Rollins can switch positions. Would still rather Washburn and Kennedy from Anaheim if I were a RedSox fan though.
I heard Kennedy or Washburn, but that's highway robbery for Kennedy. Boston pulling Washburn would border on the ridiculous, Pedro/Schilling/Lowe/Washburn and you could pitch me every 5th start and still make the playoffs.

I'm really surprised Boston didn't make Spivey a part of the Schilling trade, he was obviously available.
post #123 of 359
Quote:
Originally posted by Anyawatchin Angel
I heard disturbing news the Yanks might sign Tejada and put him at 3rd.
Steinbrenner is taking a huge amount of flack for letting Pettite go, but that's just borderline ridiculous. Why sign Boone if your just going to pick up Tejada. I can't imagine that being true, unless they're planning on moving Tejada to 2B, and moving Soriano to right field.

Moving Soriano to the outfield would be the smartest thing the Yankees could do, much better than signing Sheffield or Guerrero to some ridiculous contract.
post #124 of 359
The Sox finally signed Foulke! Man, that's HUGE. We finally have a real closer...WHEW. Damn, images of Kim serving up gopher balls can finally fade away. I was more worried about this signing than anything with ARod and co.

Now, to mend the bridges totally nuked between the Sox, Nomar and Manny. I'm tellin' ya, they need to throw some money at Nomar, or hurry up with the ARod deal.
post #125 of 359
Didn't the owner call Nomar out? If they can mend those two bridges, man... that would be impressive.

I almost think they have to get AROD after all of this.
post #126 of 359
Thread Starter 
JD Drew to Atlanta
Drew for Ray King-blows and Jason Marquis-? Guessing a pitcher.
*Ok they added to the story. Yes he's an up and coming pitcher. But if he can't make it w/ the Braves and they gave up on him how good can he be?

Foulke signs 3 year deal w/ BoSox
What excuses will the Red Sox use when they don't win it again this year?
post #127 of 359
Quote:
Originally posted by Anyawatchin Angel
What excuses will the Red Sox use when they don't win it again this year?
Hopefully they won't have to use any.
post #128 of 359
It's nice to see the Mets making a serious run at Mike Cameron. The Mets desperately need a centerfielder with Cameron's type of glove, especially with Floydd in LF and Cedeno in RF.

And I'm also quite happy that they didn't go after either Miguel Batista or Keith Foulke. The closer position is overrated in the first place, let alone paying big money for a free agent at that. Miguel Batista on the otherhand is a 32 year old #3, something the Mets have absolutely no use for.

Quote:
Originally posted by Anyawatchin Angel
But if he can't make it w/ the Braves and they gave up on him how good can he be?
*cough*Jason Schmidt*cough*
post #129 of 359
From ESPN.com:

The Marlins trade Juan Encarnacion to the Dodgers for: A Player to Be Named Later.

That's pretty sad. If I lived in Miami NFW I'd consider buying season tickets. And no way I'd vote for any public help in building a new stadium.
post #130 of 359
Thread Starter 
I thought he was a FA. Must have been arbitration eligble cuz I didn't think he had a definate contract w/ the Marlins next year.
I figured w/ Cabrera not playing third and all the talk Encarnacion made about not starting he'd be gone.

Pudge, Lee, Urbina, and Encarnacion are gone. 3 starters from their 2003 season and their closer for the 2nd half. I guess their owner is right when he said they wouldn't get rid of their platers like last time.

Come on Cubbies-make me happy this weekend!!!!
post #131 of 359
Quote:
Originally posted by SouthBay1
From ESPN.com:

The Marlins trade Juan Encarnacion to the Dodgers for: A Player to Be Named Later.

That's pretty sad. If I lived in Miami NFW I'd consider buying season tickets. And no way I'd vote for any public help in building a new stadium.
Oh come on, you don't even know who he got traded for, and after they went out and signed the guys they already signed...

I just feel sorry for the Marlins owners, they go out and sign key players like Luis Castillo and Mike Lowell, but if anyone leaves people bring up '97 all over again.

Did you see Encarnacion's second half numbers? His stolen bases halted, his OBP was putrid, and he did NOTHING in the postseason. If they got a deal that could help their team out, I don't see what the problem is.

Of course, when they traded Clement and Alfonseca for Dontrelle Willis, everyone probably said the samething.

Let's of course ignore the fact that they made a serious offer to Pudge (whose agent-Boras-isn't the type to give a team a home town discount), and are knee deep in the Guerrero and Lopez sweepstakes.
post #132 of 359
Thread Starter 
They lose their gold glove 1st baseman, all star catcher and closer not to mention a very good defensive right fielder and a pretty good hitter. You see his errors from last year? Neither did I cuz he had none. Now they will put a kid there who is a 3rd baseman learning the position. They would have been better off doing a sign and trade w/ Lowell instead of keeping him. Watch next year(not this season) he's gone by the trade deadline.

He was benched for Cabrera in playoffs. And his offensive stats didn't suffer like you say.

here's his stats
YEAR G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS BA OBP SLG OPS
2003 156 601 80 162 37 6 19 94 37 82 19 8 .270 .313 .446 .759

His stats stayed pretty consistant all year say for a slump in July when he was also facing great pitching every night. And he still did decent. Other than Pierre, McKeon didn't steal much at all when he took over. If Jack doesn't send him he won't go. He's not a green light runner.

+ his OPS was higher in September than his average for the year.

So not only are the Marlins hurt offensively, they lose t outstanding defenders in Lee and Juan E. and a catcher w/ a gun behind the plate who intimidates base runners. And they still need a closer. While not as bad or blatent as 97 they are fubar. What happens when their pitchers start to become arbitration and free agent eligable? A return to shit and eventual contraction like baseball needs to do to get healthy.
post #133 of 359
Sorry, but a corner outfielder whose speed seemed to go *poof* in the second half (regardless of management philosophies, if he doesn't run his lackluster offensive production is even less impressive), with an OBP below the league average, isn't something to be coveted. Especially after the postseason he had.

And need I remind you that Pudge turned down a two year $16 million (up to $25 million with incentives) contract because his agent is Scott Boras, not because the Marlins had no intention of signing him. I don't know about you, but with Boras as his agent I never thought the Marlins had a chance.

Derek Lee on the otherhand was a good player, and the Marlins will miss him. They got a decent young corner infielder in Heep Sop Choi to replace him, but what everyone else is forgetting is that they won with a $55 million payroll last year... and the most important piece of their team is the pitching staff. Did everyone forget that A. J. Burnett and Brad Penny are both up for arbitration? If I had a choice between Lee and Encarnacion or Burnett and Penny, I'd definitely go with the latter.

To finish this fish talk off, closers are never worth their price on the open market. I say kudos to them for not signing Urbina, the closer position is still the most overrated position in MLB... your better off bringing one up from your system.

Anyway, on to more important issues. It was nice to see the Mets sign Cameron to a three year $19 million contract, especially since it was less than what the A's offered (fewer years). All in all, the offseason has been kind to us this year. Enough with the position players though, if they can just get their hands on Freddy Garcia, it will have been a succesful offseason.
post #134 of 359
Nice move for the Mets and the Dodgers. The Marlins are smart to count their penny's (no pun intended) however if I was a fan of theirs I still wouldn't be happy. They should have signed Pudge and given him more money. Not what Pudge was directly asking for mind you but signing him would have taken alot of the pressure off the Marlins for letting go Lee, Urbina and Encarnacion.
post #135 of 359
Thread Starter 
closer position is overrated? Say that to the Cardnials who lost over 20 games because of no closer. Say that to the Cy Young Gagne. Say that to the Red Sox who struggled all year and in the playoffs to get the final out. Or say that to the White Sox who may have won their division if Billy Koch didn't implode. And the Yankees won all their recent titles because Rivera was so dominant. Closers are important and not signing yours means you aren't really going for it all.

While Pudge is asking for alot, The Marlins are offering LESS than what they gave the year before. Way to treat your offensive MVP in the playoffs.
post #136 of 359
Quote:
Originally posted by Anyawatchin Angel
closer position is overrated? Say that to the Cardnials who lost over 20 games because of no closer. Say that to the Cy Young Gagne. Say that to the Red Sox who struggled all year and in the playoffs to get the final out. Or say that to the White Sox who may have won their division if Billy Koch didn't implode. And the Yankees won all their recent titles because Rivera was so dominant. Closers are important and not signing yours means you aren't really going for it all
Amen. The Red Sox blew 21 saves last year...Foulke blew only 5. Having those 16 games in the W column would have easily made us the East champs and change the whole scope of the playoffs.

I'm so excited for a season of MLB for the first time in a long, long time.
post #137 of 359
I'll defend the Marlins' front office on Pudge. It wasn't so much how much he wanted but how many years he wanted it for. No way you sign an old catcher for that many years. If they were in the AL and had a DH, maybe.

I'll also vote that closers are an integral part of a team's success or failure. Assuming your starters/middle relievers can get the game to the 8th with a lead.
post #138 of 359
I wont argue that the RedSox didn't have a shoddy bullpen last year, but that's more to do with their lackluster talent at reliever than anything else. During the postseason, Timlin and Williamson were as good as anything else out there.

When I say overrated, I mean it's not worth the money spent on it. A closer is not worth $8 million a season. Hell, if you want to bring up Foulke, why not bring up the Oakland A's in general? When was the last time they signed a free agent closer? And when was the last time a closer they lost has done anything remotely productive? Billy Taylor never saved a game afterwards, Ishringhausen has been DL prone ever since (A Mets fan could have warned you about that), Koch imploded as a White Sock, and who knows what Foulke's going to give you in pressure filled Boston.

Theres only a handfull of closers worth your attention (Rivera, Percival, Smoltz, Nenn), the rest are just overrated fireballers placed in the most oppurtune position to succeed.

And as an aside, I still think Eric Gagne is the most overrated player in MLB. The man inherited something like 5 baserunners all year. The only times I ever saw him in a pressure filled spot he blew them. A 4-4 tie against Atlanta in May where he gave up 3 ER, and a 2-2 tie against San Francisco where he gave up a run in a 1/3 of an inning. If you want to be an upper-echelon closer, you have to be put into scenarios with men on base and gut it out... something he's never done.
post #139 of 359
Quote:
Originally posted by MoNkaholic

And as an aside, I still think Eric Gagne is the most overrated player in MLB.
MoNkaholic, so much for that career as a baseball scout or GM. Gagne was unhittable most of the time this year - makes hitters look absolutely silly.

What you're missing is that a team works hard for 7 innings to get a lead - they don't want to blow those games. If Grady Little had had Gagne, the Sox would have been the AL representative in the World Series.

According to ESPN, Tejada is now an Oriole - 6 years, $72 million. 3 of the 4 best SSs are now in the AL East.
post #140 of 359
Not sure if that was a smart pick up for the O's at this time. Should have stayed in the Vladimir sweepstakes then signed Tejada. Oh well hope the move works for them. I think thats a tad too much for Miguel honestly. On the Clemens front it looks like its for real he might sign with the stros. The NL central is a great division and its gonna be a fun one to watch next year between the Cubbies and stros.
post #141 of 359
Thread Starter 
12 million for Tejada??? He choked in the playoffs and had a sub par 1st half of the season. Glad Baltimore might get back to winning baseball but that's alot. I'd rather have Vlad too.
post #142 of 359
Peter Gammons was on ESPN earlier tonight. He thinks the O's are still in the running to get Vlad Guererro. Apparently there were a lot of fans dressed as empty seats last year.

Gammons, for what it's worth, also thinks the 'A-Rod for Manny then trade Nomar' deal is dead. According to his sources, the Red Sox brass now thinks they have the best team in the AL and that the Dodgers and Angels don't have anyone they'd want in exchange for Nomar.
post #143 of 359
Quote:
Originally posted by SouthBay1
MoNkaholic, so much for that career as a baseball scout or GM. Gagne was unhittable most of the time this year - makes hitters look absolutely silly.

What you're missing is that a team works hard for 7 innings to get a lead - they don't want to blow those games. If Grady Little had had Gagne, the Sox would have been the AL representative in the World Series.
Eric Gagne succeeded as a closer for multiple reasons. He has three great pitches, has a manager that almost exclusively pitches him in the ninth with a lead, and he plays in Dodgers Stadium. All I hear about is how important the closer position is, then I see Tim Worrell replace Rob Nenn and bairly skip a beat. I see Rod Beck-of all people-replace the immortal Trevor Hoffman and put up stellar numbers. I see Oakland replace their closer every year and only come out smelling like roses.

If you think Houston's going to hurt next year with Octavio Dotel replacing Billy Wagner, or that Oakland's going to take a hit for going next season with yet another replacement, you've got another thing coming. Creating (and you are creating) a succesful closer isn't terribly difficult, in fact most closers that start the entire season put up respectable numbers. Finding someone you can count on in a big spot though, now that's another issue entirely. One that Gagne hasn't properly addressed one way or another, and until he does that I can't fawn over the man any more so than people fawn over Billy Wagner, or the season Benitez only blew two saves.

I mean seriously, since when does being a succesful closer = postseason success? Armando Benitez and Billy Koch both won rolaids relief awards, before last season there was even a 3 season span where Benitez was the most succesful closer in MLB. I don't hear anyone going out of their way for either of those two.
post #144 of 359
MoNkaholic, I never said "good closer = postseason success". All I know is Grady Little took a huge risk letting Pedro stay in because he had no confidence in his bullpen (Timlin was pitching well in the postseason - should have brought him in) and Grady is now unemployed.

Gagne got all the saves fair and square - he didn't blow ANY chances - that is incredible. It's not his fault the Dodgers had no offense. If it hadn't been for Gagne the Dodgers would have been out of wild card contention in June.

Worrell was already a good closer before he took over for Nenn. And the Astros obviously think enough of Dotel to let Wagner go to my Phillies. And I completely reject your premise that it's "easy" to make a closer. Not everyone can handle the pressure - see the Korean kid in Boston.

If you really believe that closers aren't important, you should walk around NYC and tell everyone wearing a Yankees hat that George should unload Rivera. You'll either get thrown in the Hudson River or people will look at you like you have a dick growing out of your forehead.
post #145 of 359
Brilliantly said Southbay. My brother is just a casual Yanks fan and he loves Rivera above all the other players on that team. If Rivera was traded I can honestly say I wouldn't want to be around him for any length of that time.
post #146 of 359
Quote:
Originally posted by SouthBay1
MoNkaholic, I never said "good closer = postseason success". All I know is Grady Little took a huge risk letting Pedro stay in because he had no confidence in his bullpen (Timlin was pitching well in the postseason - should have brought him in) and Grady is now unemployed.
As he should be, he refused to trust his bullpen, which cost his franchise a shot at the World Series.

Quote:
Originally posted by SouthBay1
Gagne got all the saves fair and square - he didn't blow ANY chances - that is incredible. It's not his fault the Dodgers had no offense. If it hadn't been for Gagne the Dodgers would have been out of wild card contention in June.
Yes it's a great accomplishment to go a season without blowing a save, never meant to imply that it wasn't. But of all the closers, he was coddled the most. He faced the fewest inherited runners, and only came into two tough situations all season--and blew them. In September after all the stats and all the media play, when they needed their best arm in a tough spot in the 8th, I saw them throw in Mota, not Gagne. To me, if you want to be an elite closer, you have to be the one to go in when the team needs their best reliever, regardless of whether it's the 8th or the 9th. Remember my term is overrated, not unimportant.

Simply put, theres a drop off. You have a handfull of elite closers in MLB that are worth every penny, and the rest are overpaid relievers. Almost every team in MLB can scour through their system and find a closer that can be succesful. Finding one that you can give the ball to in a tough spot? Well that's something entirely different. Let's look at Byung Hyun Kim. In 2001, up until the Yankees series, he was automatic. Everyone lauded his statistics, but when he went up against the Yankees in a tough spot he blew it. Now he's probably going to get converted into a starter because he has no use to Boston otherwise. Everyone talks about how great Billy Wagner is, but ask a Houston fan if they want to see him in a tough spot in September. Outside of that handfull of elite closers, just about every one of them is successful as a whole, but untrustworthy when the chips are down.

Quote:
Originally posted by SouthBay1
Worrell was already a good closer before he took over for Nenn. And the Astros obviously think enough of Dotel to let Wagner go to my Phillies. And I completely reject your premise that it's "easy" to make a closer. Not everyone can handle the pressure - see the Korean kid in Boston.

If you really believe that closers aren't important, you should walk around NYC and tell everyone wearing a Yankees hat that George should unload Rivera. You'll either get thrown in the Hudson River or people will look at you like you have a dick growing out of your forehead.
First, Worrell WAS NOT already a good closer before he took over. He had all of 7 saves in the 10 years prior to 2003, perhaps you missed something there. Second, closers in general are overrated, not unimportant. Hell, if you go up you'll even see I say that theres a handfull of elite closers-Rivera included-and the rest are just overpaid fireballers, but ok, let's just not read what people write. In the end, they are part of your bullpen, which is an incredibly important part of any team. My issue is giving guys like Keith Foulke $8 million a season, when if you ask Billy Beane, his goto guy is Chad Bradford.
post #147 of 359
Closers are overvalued, it's a fact. That's not to say that every closer is overvalued, but even the middle tier closers have one great year and you see them signed left and right for the rest of their careers. Heck, 'Flash' Gordon just got signed again and when's the last time he was worthwhile? When healthy you can see the Hoffman/Rivera/Wagner/Nen/Gagne etc. types dominate and that's certainly worthy of the praise they get, but for every one of those you have the Mantei/Foulke/Kim/Benitez etc. people who are valued strictly because they're closers and not because they're really great at it. Don't forget the Diamondbacks traded Brad Penny to the Marlins in order to get Matt Mantei, because Gregg Olson was absolutely the worst closer in baseball at the time. Penny was their top pitching prospect and he was traded away for a middle-tier closer.
post #148 of 359
Miguel Tejada is an O Baby...Looks like I'm going to alot more games at good old Camden Yards, especially if they can land Vlad and Pudge.
post #149 of 359
It's amazing, every big time free agent has issues this year except for Tejada. Sure I don't like him, but he's young and he's not a risk for injury. Something I can't say about Guerrero, Pudge, Lopez or Sheffield.

To tell the truth, I was always far more interested in Eric Chavez (yes I know he's not a free agent) than Miguel Tejada, but at least I can see why the Orioles went after him.
post #150 of 359
He's a good shortstop but well below A-Rod, Jeter and Nomar. The guy needs to give his agent a huge holiday bonus for landing him that kinda money.
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