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Who do YOU think killed Kennedy?

post #1 of 98
Thread Starter 
After the awful Documentary aired on UK TV (The one with the nifty CGI). I started reading as much as I could find on this case, and can't seem to come to a conclusion...so, who do you think did it?

Personally, I don't think Oswald did do it, mainly due to the lack of any real evidence, consider this...

1) Oswald was a piss poor shot. He ended up with a score of 151 at the end of his training, the lowest possible is 150.

2) After allegedly killing Kennedy, Oswald stopped for a Coke in the canteen of the Texas Book Depositry. Furthermore, he stopped to talk with a co-worker as well as show a reporter to a phone. Hardly the act of a man who was in a hurry.

3) The original photos of the 'Snipers Nest', which where taken pretty soon after the asassanation, showed a bottle of Dr Pepper as well as a pack of cigarettes. Oswald didn't smoke. For the later photo's these items were removed by Police and never recorded in their books. What the 'Snipers Nest' actually was was a place where the workers on the 6th floor could hide in and have a smoke.

4) The original crime scene photographer revealed to the Warren Comission that, when taken photo's of the boxes at the snipers' nest, a corner was ripped off and 'sent to confirm Oswalds fingerprints', when the corner was returned there was a nice big Oswald hand print on there.

5) The same photographer testified that the detective at the crime scene actually picked up the shells with his bare hands to pose with them. It isn't known if this was before or after fingerprinting was done (It is believed that it was well before - and that is also what the Warren Commison seemed to be getting at).

6) Why didn't Oswald take the far easier shot on Houston? There was no awkward angle (and no big bloody Oak Tree in the way either) and he would've had plenty of time to get the Prez with his first shot.

7) Tests proved that while Oswald had fired a gun that day, it wasn't a Rifle - It was a pistol, which ties him to the murder of Officer Tippet. These results were not going to be known until the Warren Comission were nearly sued over it (The results were not known at the time of Oswalds death).

8) Oswalds denial. Since his death, Oswald has been made out to be a fanatic. A man who was a nobody yet always wanted to be a somebody. So why does he deny the murder of the President? He has all those camera's on him, he knows the whole world is going to see it and he just denies it. A lot of people I have spoken to have said "Well obviously he was waiting until he made it to trial because it's a bigger stage, more people will see". Maybe so, but then why does he say he was a Patsy? He was an intelligent man, if he wanted to make a grand cliam over JFK's death then wouldn't it be better he keep quiet and then make his claim in Court? Escpecially as he was a little prone to dramatics. Instead he basically outright says he's been set-up.

I dunno. What do you folks think? I know the subject has been done to death but I really only know have started to look into the case a little more. My only real previous knowledge is Oliver Stone's film, and yes I am aware of all the innacuracies in that film as well.
post #2 of 98
I think that Oswald didn't do it, mainly because of the forensic evidence and the bullet trajectories. I don't know who did it, though.
post #3 of 98
Was that the documentary that showed the computer simulation of what Oswald's view through the scope would've been? I have to admit, it made it seem like it's not THAT impossible to hit two out of three. On the other hand, that show included stuff like an interview with a guy who supposedly saw Oswald on a bus from Mexico city and said that "he seemed focused on some idea that was in his head." Jesus, what half-assed truckstop witness store did they find him in?
post #4 of 98
I caught this documentary on tv recently. I don't believe Oswald did it; and I don't think we'll ever really know the whole truth as to who all was involved that did. To this day, everyone is still speculating.
post #5 of 98
I saw 3 specials on JFK arounfd the 22nd. ABC made it seem Oswald acted alone while Fox and I believe the history channel left it open that it's possible he did and possible he didn't.

There are too many unanswered questions and sealed documents to know for sure. The computer graphics of the ABC special made it seem Oswald acted alone but the guy got all his data w/out anyone doing a proper autopsy, the car JFK was riding cleaned so if there was a 4th bullet we'll never know.

Unless the government gives over all the evidence questions will still remain-and that's probably how the govenment wants it. If they had nothing to hide, why hide things?
post #6 of 98
Oswald did it, acting alone. All the bullet trajectory stuff works just fine, especially if you account for the bullet richoceting off of bone and changing direction as it passes through flesh.

Although the evidence against Oswald doesn't completely add up, you have to make much bigger logical leaps if you want to believe anyone else did it.
post #7 of 98
The continuing lone gunman theory is a farce. Even the House Select Committee on Assassinations back in the '70s concluded that a single shooter could not have killed him alone. These were trained assassins, probably three of them or more, hired by a cabal of political forces and the mob. There's no question in my mind that this was a political assassination, a coup. If you are seriously interested in the zillions of inconsistencies in the lone gunman theory, if you want a glimpse of that part of reality that our mainstream political powers have engendered a systematic culture of secrecy and disinformation to deny its very existence, read Jim Marrs' comprehensive Crossfire: the plot that killed Kennedy or Robert J. Groden's The Killing of a President.

I once went to a workshop conducted by Groden, who testified as a photographic consultant at the House hearings, and based on what I saw no mainstream source like ABC or Court TV will ever convince me that the lone gunman "magic bullet" theory even approximates reality.
post #8 of 98
The thing that really defined my opinion on the Kennedy assassination was A&E's The Men Who Killed Kennedy. The sheer volume of evidence, like the Dallas coroner's description of Kennedy (with the back of his head missing) versus the Bethesda description (still there), the bullet that hit the curb, leaving only 2 bullets - the one that hit them both, and the one that just hit Kennedy, the expert marksman either barely getting off 3 shots with a gun similar to Oswald's in the 6 seconds or else not getting them off, and so on. It'd have to be quite the feat of skill (not a great description of Oswald) to be able to do it on his own, actually having a bullet go front to back through Kennedy's head when he was shooting from behind the President.
post #9 of 98
Fox News did it!
post #10 of 98
Well, as long as we're recommending books...

Case Closed exposes most of the conspiracy theories for the total BS that they are.
post #11 of 98
just curious - does the evaluation of Oswald's marksmanship come from a single test that he failed in the military? And how long before the assassination was that?

one thing I'm pretty sure of: regardless of disagreements between coroners, in the Zapruder film I saw it was the front of his head that opened up.

Who knows? To me it makes the most sense that Oswald was shooting, but certainly backed by some organization, hence his lack of bragging (thinking he might somehow get acquitted and paid) and his patsy statement, not to mention quickly leaving the scene and shooting a cop.
post #12 of 98
Thread Starter 
Well a few things...I do think that the final blow came from behind, just not from the TBD.

The Dal-Tex building seems far more likely to me. From there you have a perfect view right down the street, whereas the TBD has a perfect view of Houston.

The bullet trajectory's do not match with the TBD, escpecially the missed shot. It struck the curb and shards hit James Teague in the face. For Oswald to strike the curb he wouldn't have been aiming very well, in fact he probably wouldn't have been aiming at Kennedy. If the shot came from the Dal-Tex building then it's a lot more likely that it was a genuine miss of the head shot which flew over but was very close to Kennedy and then struck the curb.

Of course, no one has come up with a good reason as to how the one bullet ends up in Conally's thigh.
post #13 of 98
I'd have to say Oswald did it, but I wouldn't discount the possibility of a conspiracy. I mean, they lost the President's brain, for cryin' out loud. How do you 'misplace' the PRESIDENT'S FREAKIN' BRAIN?!? "Gee, Phil, I know I had the Presiden't brain with me when I left the house this morning..."
post #14 of 98
Quote:
Originally posted by LlamaRama
Oswald did it, acting alone. All the bullet trajectory stuff works just fine, especially if you account for the bullet richoceting off of bone and changing direction as it passes through flesh.

Although the evidence against Oswald doesn't completely add up, you have to make much bigger logical leaps if you want to believe anyone else did it.
Sure, some of the best marksmen in the world alive have tried to duplicate what LHO did in less than five seconds and no one, I repeat, no one had been able to do what LHO did with his God-given talent.

Please, LHO is the biggest setup in the history. Oliver Stone said that regardless of the conspiracy, the are 3 things that stand out.

1.- Why was JFK killed?
2.- Who benefited?
3. - Who has the power to cover it up?

And lets not talk about National Security Action Memos 55,56, & 57 (which were never implemented, but scared the shit out of people).

The firing of the sacred cows Dulles, Richard Bissell, and Gen Cabell.

There was more than enough reason to kill the guy (from their POV).
post #15 of 98
Yeah, but weigh the number of political higher-ups who would want to kill the president with the number of ideologically motivated loonies who would want to kill the president, and it's pretty clear which side would have greater numbers.

So as long as it's a question of motivation, the odds are in favor of Oswald.

I'm not saying that there is absolutely no evidence to support conspiracy, just that it's scattered, poorly compiled, improbable at best, and generally completely explainable if you do enough probing.
post #16 of 98
Quote:
Originally posted by LlamaRama
Yeah, but weigh the number of political higher-ups who would want to kill the president with the number of ideologically motivated loonies who would want to kill the president, and it's pretty clear which side would have greater numbers.

So as long as it's a question of motivation, the odds are in favor of Oswald.

I'm not saying that there is absolutely no evidence to support conspiracy, just that it's scattered, poorly compiled, improbable at best, and generally completely explainable if you do enough probing.
That's the whole point of a GOOD conspiracy, leave the how and the who scattered, poorly compiled and improbable at best. Remember, this conspirators know how to keep secrets.

And I still can't believe you buy into what the Warren Commision sold to America. Is it any surprise that a man JFK fired was sent to head the Warren Comm.?
post #17 of 98
Wait, so, the less probable a conspiracy, the more likely it is that one existed? Huh?
post #18 of 98
Quote:
Originally posted by LlamaRama
Wait, so, the less probable a conspiracy, the more likely it is that one existed? Huh?
Since when does a conspiracy fall under science, statistics & probabilities?

Does it strike you odd that they had a complete profile and press kit of Oswald with less than 30 mins of the shooting. Either they knew he was going to pull the trigger and said shit or he was a setup.

It took the CIA & the FBI over 2 days to come up with profiles of all the 9/11 terrorist. Either the intelligence teams work efficiently at multiple levels back in the mid-early 60s, or the guys today suck.
post #19 of 98
The bigger question in all of this: Who does Gerald Posner work for that he has to constantly rail away at what most thinking people believe? I say Stop Gerald Posner!
post #20 of 98
Quote:
Originally posted by LlamaRama
Well, as long as we're recommending books...

Case Closed exposes most of the conspiracy theories for the total BS that they are.
This needs repeating. The last word on the assassination. Oswald acted alone, but it's obvious many will never come to grips with that. Big events often have small causes, something to keep in mind.
post #21 of 98
Quote:
Originally posted by Nelson is testing Agrep
That's the whole point of a GOOD conspiracy, leave the how and the who scattered, poorly compiled and improbable at best. Remember, this conspirators know how to keep secrets.

And I still can't believe you buy into what the Warren Commision sold to America. Is it any surprise that a man JFK fired was sent to head the Warren Comm.?
JFK also said that Joe McCarthy was a great American. I'm sure many of you would disagree with that .
post #22 of 98
I don't know about any theories... I just have to go with my gut...

And I can't buy the "magic bullet". Sorry. It's not possible for a bullet to change trajectory in midair. And come out as pristine as it did.
post #23 of 98
Quote:
Originally posted by MJZ
JFK also said that Joe McCarthy was a great American. I'm sure many of you would disagree with that .
Uhh...no.
post #24 of 98
Quote:
Originally posted by Nordling
I don't know about any theories... I just have to go with my gut...

And I can't buy the "magic bullet". Sorry. It's not possible for a bullet to change trajectory in midair. And come out as pristine as it did.
I'm amazed it was ever proferred. Were the people that stupid and gullible?

Wait...don't answer that.
post #25 of 98
I'm sure Oswald was involved, and may in fact have fired some of the shots. But I am absolutely convinced there was more than one gunman involved, if for no other reason than the Zapruder film (backandtotheleft) and the magic bullet theory.

As far as the why is concerned, I think it had something to do with the Vietnam war, the political and corporate forces that wanted it.
post #26 of 98
The funny thing is, the magic bullet theory makes perfect sense if you factor in bullet velocity. Bullets, like any solid object, change direction when the medium they're passing through changes density. This includes flesh. The bullet passes through enough soft tissue to change its direction slightly, so that it is perfectly conceivable that it hit all the required locations.

Also, it is not unlikely that the bullet came out of the incident fairly pristine. It entered Kennedy's flesh at high speed, but slowed considerably as it passed through him and the governor. By the time it hit the governor's wristbone, it was moving at a fraction of its initial velocity, and certainly not fast enough to greatly deform it.

The fact is, with the incredible amounts of scrutiny this incident has been given over the past four decades, it seems next to impossible that a vast conspiracy could have existed without producing any sort of irrefutable evidence.
post #27 of 98
Quote:
Originally posted by Van Jones
As far as the why is concerned, I think it had something to do with the Vietnam war, the political and corporate forces that wanted it.
I really don't think it was Vietnam that did it. It's become popular legend that Kennedy would have pulled us out of Vietnam, but if you look at history, I don't think that would have been the case. Kennedy was clearly anti-communist and very strong on national defense. He had been increasing the number of advisers in South Vietnam. The people who made the decisions in the Johnson administration (McNamara, specifically) were the same as those who made the decisions in Kennedy's administration. I fall more on the side of some combination of the mob, Castro, and/or FBI
post #28 of 98
The reason I go with the Vietnam plot, is the weakness of any motive or cohesive reason the mafia/cuba plots have.

And while the physics of the magic bullet may indeed be mathematically possible, I really think it's pushes logic well past breaking point. And surely the bullet would have been somewhat deformed after it's journey?
post #29 of 98
Quote:
Originally posted by Nordling

And I can't buy the "magic bullet". Sorry. It's not possible for a bullet to change trajectory in midair. And come out as pristine as it did.
In that documetary I saw, as part of the computer forensics analysis, they did a - I don't know what you call it - they tracked all the bullet trajectories in reverse to see where they could've come from, and that window in the book depository was right smack in the middle of the cone. and it showed how the one bullet could've caused the multiple wounds with only a slight change of direction due to changing density or deflection. This would tend to suggest that the "magic bullet" thing was just an incredibly dumb idea that somone latched onto for lack of the technology to present a better explanation. I mean, if someone could show the simulation I saw instead (which was very plausible), why would they waste time with the magic bullet? "Experts" come up with stupid ideas all the time.

And again, I don't know in what direction a head's going to loll after being shot, but for god's sake the man's face turned inside out in the Zapruder film, so unless it was one of those bullets that softly embeds itself before exploding backwards, that shot came from behind him.
post #30 of 98
I haven't seen the Zapruder in a few years, but I could have sworn that it was the back of Kennedy's head that exploded, not the front. Nevertheless, the physics of the shot (back, and to the left) would indicate that the bullet came from the front and to the right, because it's like a car wreck. If a semi (high volume, low velocity) hit a Toyota Echo (low volume, high velocity), then the semi would push the Toyota in the direction the semi is going. Similarly, while the bullet is low volume, it is very high velocity, while Kennedy's head was almost no velocity, but pretty sizeable volume. If his head cannot have jerked back if the bullet came from the rear, because the energy in the bullet was far greater than that in his head, causing his head to go the direction the bullet was, not the bullet to go the direction his head was.
post #31 of 98
I suck at political debate. I know my limitations.

HOWEVER, I was so behind yt on her post and I sat here frustrated all day waiting for her to chime in again and mention the one word that sorro beat her to.......Castro.

Gah!

Please continue....
post #32 of 98
I don't know, it's hard to tell, and frankly it's not something I want to go through frame by frame to check, but to me it seemed like his face is suddenly obscured by the inside of his head, almost like it folds down. I don't know. And while I understand the physics and the questions raised, perhaps a bullet, while making its way through various regions of the brain, might trigger a head to do strange things.
post #33 of 98
Quote:
Originally posted by Van Jones
The reason I go with the Vietnam plot, is the weakness of any motive or cohesive reason the mafia/cuba plots have.

And while the physics of the magic bullet may indeed be mathematically possible, I really think it's pushes logic well past breaking point. And surely the bullet would have been somewhat deformed after it's journey?
Here ya go: http://www.posner.com/ce399.htm
post #34 of 98
Quote:
Originally posted by Van Jones
I'm sure Oswald was involved, and may in fact have fired some of the shots. But I am absolutely convinced there was more than one gunman involved, if for no other reason than the Zapruder film (backandtotheleft) and the magic bullet theory.

As far as the why is concerned, I think it had something to do with the Vietnam war, the political and corporate forces that wanted it.
Re: "back and to the left," http://www.jfk-online.com/jfk100shot5.html

That's a pretty good site btw. Covers 100 errors in fact and judgement in Stone's film, along with additional articles and such on the assassination, several covering the loathsome Jim Garrison and his nutty fabrications.
post #35 of 98
Quote:
Originally posted by defectivehand
And while I understand the physics and the questions raised, perhaps a bullet, while making its way through various regions of the brain, might trigger a head to do strange things.
No offense, but I really think you're reaching a bit far here. In the zoomed in and slo-mo version of the Zapruder film, you can see the damage from the bullet appear at the front of his head, above his eyes, fractionally before it appears at the back and Kennedy 'reacts' to the hit. It's as grisly and tragic as hell, but Kennedy's head goes "back and to the left". Kevin Costner just absolutely nailed that part of the case.

And those photos are inadequate. Which end of the bullet are we looking at? But from the angle that we have, the old bullet looks in pretty good shape to me, considering all the damage it is supposed to have done.

I wish I still had my JFK tape.
post #36 of 98
Quote:
Originally posted by MJZ
Re: "back and to the left," http://www.jfk-online.com/jfk100shot5.html
I can't see how these three stills from Nix can be held as solid evidence Kennedy's head went forward. If his head does move at all, it's a very very small amount compared to the violent lurch backwards. And the doctors complicated explanation of Jackie moving forward and his arm going up and his torso twisting left feels like smoke.

What's most likely to me is that the Nix shots just capture Kennedy continuing to move forward, reacting to the first bullet, fractions of a second before the second bullet hits.
post #37 of 98
Also keep in mind that JFK was wearing his back brace when he was shot, preventing him from bending forward at the waist when the first bullet hit him(a non fatal shot). I haven't researched it enough to definitively say that that MIGHT have contributed somewhat to his movement after the second shot, but it seems plausible to some degree.
post #38 of 98
Quote:
Originally posted by Van Jones
No offense, but I really think you're reaching a bit far here. In the zoomed in and slo-mo version of the Zapruder film, you can see the damage from the bullet appear at the front of his head, above his eyes, fractionally before it appears at the back and Kennedy 'reacts' to the hit. It's as grisly and tragic as hell, but Kennedy's head goes "back and to the left". Kevin Costner just absolutely nailed that part of the case.

And those photos are inadequate. Which end of the bullet are we looking at? But from the angle that we have, the old bullet looks in pretty good shape to me, considering all the damage it is supposed to have done.

I wish I still had my JFK tape.
None taken. But I just checked out that link and the description from Ken Rahn is exactly what I was saying, and to me it makes perfect sense. How do you explain the fact that you CAN see the back of his head and there's no damage?
post #39 of 98
and btw, I've seen enough old war footage of people being executed with rifles at point blank range to know that there's very little reaction in the body, let alone being launched in the direction of the bullet's trajectory. We all agree that the President got a bullet through the throat, right? So why was that impact only marked by a little flinch? And bullet entry wounds are generally clean, little holes the same size as the bullet. Exit wounds are the kind that explode.
post #40 of 98
Da Mafia. Joe Kennedy owed them money and Bobbie was busting their balls.
post #41 of 98
Quote:
Originally posted by MJZ
Here ya go: http://www.posner.com/ce399.htm
If you've ever seen a bullet pulled out of a human body, it in no way looks like CE399. Bullets that go through soft tissue are flattened front to back, not dented a bit at the side. And if a bullet goes through a skull, twice... it looks *much* worse. Most of the time they fragment, too.

For what it did, that bullet *is* pristine.
post #42 of 98
Quote:
Originally posted by defectivehand
And while I understand the physics and the questions raised, perhaps a bullet, while making its way through various regions of the brain, might trigger a head to do strange things.
Email me the next time you hear of or see a bullet make close to 2 45 degree turns like the ones pictured below and I'll buy you the car of your dreams.

post #43 of 98
Thread Starter 
Wow, a thread I started actually got some replies...

To chime in with just a few more things...

The list of innacuracies against Stone's film isn't quite fair. He's never claimed to be telling the truth and freely admits it's a 'Kitchen Sink' film. Plus that site should only be 99 seeing as one of them is from scenes that never made it into the film.

Also, regarding Kennedy and his wounds, the Parkland docters, to this day, still swear that the Kennedy head wound is an exit wound. As for his thraot wound, sadly we wont quite know seeing as he was given a emergency tracheotomy(sp?), thus ruining any evidence they could've gotten from the wound.

Does Kennedy react 'with' the bullet? I don't know, I'm really no expert on it. Playing it frame by frame it seems he jerks forward suddenly before falling back and to the left. But then there's no telling for the way the body will react when blasted with such a force.

As for the 'undamaged' bullet. Wasn't it made that way? I'm pretty sure I read/saw it somewhere where they explain that it was made not to get beat-up as it hits a target, whether this is true or not I don't know.
post #44 of 98
That diagram:

A. Ignores the fact that both the president and the governor were quite probably not sitting perfectly parallel to each other. Even a slight angle in their relative positions renders in useless.

B. Is in two dimensions, making the angle of deflection much harder to see.

C. Is drawn with a curving bullet. Twist each body slightly, and draw the line straight from each point of impact to the next, and the whole thing looks a lot more probable.
post #45 of 98
Thread Starter 
Yep, Conally wasn't sat that way. His body was twisted as he was turning at the time, add that to the fact that his seat wasn't directly in front of Kennedy's like the diagram shows and the 'magic bullet' becomes a little more believeable.

Though no-one can explain how the bullet ends up in Conally's thigh.
post #46 of 98
Why not? Through Kennedy, through his torso, through his wrist, into his thigh. He's getting shot from above, so it's angling down into him.
post #47 of 98
Thanks to this thread, I'm renting the Oliver Stone movie. I've never seen it. And then I'm going to visit the site linked above that addresses 100 wrongs contained there.
post #48 of 98
LamaRama,
you're bending over backwards to refute the obvious. I will be the first to admit that I don't know who killed Kennedy. But that doesn't make it Oswald by default. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that he DIDN'T do it. The hard part is figuring out who did.

As for those debunking Stone's JFK film, well that's like shooting fish in a barrel. But Stone never intended to offer a definitive theory on what happened. The primary goal of the film was to look at the assassination from many different angles and spark conversation/debate. It continues, to this day, to do just that.
post #49 of 98
Wasn't there a date when ALL JFK material surrounding his assination would be released? something like 2060? I think they are waiting till people who were involved in aspects of the origional investigation are dead. Anyone remember this clause?
post #50 of 98
Quote:
Originally posted by Anyawatchin Angel
Wasn't there a date when ALL JFK material surrounding his assination would be released? something like 2060? I think they are waiting till people who were involved in aspects of the origional investigation are dead. Anyone remember this clause?
75 years - The year 2038 I'll be 55.

I can't wait.
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