Back to the moon! - Page 2

Colonization can also be about living space, not just resources.

And I haven't been to the surface of Mars lately, so I lack the obviously expansive knowledge of what minerals, compounds, metals, etc that may be on the surface that you seem to have.

We'll never know until we go, and I for one am not content to have the only evidence of mankind's reach into space be some flags on the moon and some metal boxes drifting out beyond Pluto.

http://www.msss.com/mars/surveyor/ms....html#RTFToC13

OK, so I made a hasty comment. Both education reform and health care are valid issues for most Americans. For me,right now, nope. Education reform- not going to have any kids, so not a hot button issue for me. Health care- I have always had health insurance, so maybe it is an issue I take for granted.

Do both issues have the potential to affect me in the future? Sure. Will my tax money goto those issues? Yes (like I have much of a choice in that matter). I guess what I am trying to say is that if I had to choose to send my money to the black hole of space exploration or the black hole of education reform or health care, then I would choose space exploration.

But without the education, no one's going to understand how to make or man or run the spacecraft.

Because education reform and health care are not hot issues for me personally, that is selfish? Did I say that they are completely irrelevant? Nope. I just think we are spending enough money on those issues (we need better plans not more money). I am saying that they are not my number 1 or 2 issue. They make the top 10. Is that good enough for you?

Trust me, dude.

We're NOT spending enough on education. Just ask any teacher (my brother is one). School budgets are threadbare, teachers are being forced to retire just to collect benefits, and instead of repairing bad schools, we just let kids flee them turning the schools they flee to into the exact same thing.

And as long as 40 million Americans (including millions of children, who need it most) are uninsured, health care does NOT have "enough" resources/money.

I'm glad you brought this up. My favorite teacher in high school told me he was retiring simply because he wasn't able to fit the bill for everyday things (and this guy lives a simple life). The education budget is trite and needs a serious overhaul.

Believe it or not, that is precisely what NASA is doing right now by bringing in the commercial sector to form new public/private research partnerships.

Also don't underestimate the importance of oft ignored and derided initiatives such as X-Prize which currently boasts 20 highly specialised and technically competent private organisations competing to be the first to put a man in space. Even NASA admits to being impressed (as well as excited) at the levels of proficiency displayed by the competitors.

Low-cost space exploration development programs are the only way forward at this moment, and we should embrace them entirely instead of putting all of our faith in high-risk, high-expenditure, government-funded and politically driven initiatives that are economically unfeasible over the long term.

Don't we do that in our own personal lives too? We spend our personal money on our own needs. My money helps fund national spending, so why shouldn't my wants and needs be addressed?

Isn't it selfish for you to expect my money to support your national spending agenda (whatever that may be)?

Is it the lack of money or the system that doesn't work?

What do you care, Joe....you said no to education and health care REFORM above, as well as the issues themselves. And you already divulged that they don't mean much to you as long as you have them, so I'm not sure why you're still in the thread.

Don't even bother.

You will come to learn that Devin is ALWAYS right. (Even when he is wrong) He is un-selfish, and omnipotent with regards to what is best for all of humanity. No one else can measure up to him, begin to approach his obvious intellect, so it is pointless to argue with him at all.

Just smile, nod, and keep walking, as you would to a questionable stain on the sidewalk.

Grift, spare us. Please. This has been done to death already and contributes nothing to this thread or these boards.

Both. Although a surge of funds for the system may help even things out before we go an revamp the entire thing.

You smile and nod at stains on the sidewalk?

For education, it's the system, that why our public education trails even countries that spend less on it.

Funny, that's exactly how I feel about Devin.

But I'll behave.

Ah! A stockbroker. How handy.

So: would these private space enterprises attract investors? There's not a lot of profit in going to the moon for its own sake, I imagine. Lots of jobs and stuff, sure. Commercial benefits? Maybe. Possibly. Eventually. But those could be arrived at without actually spending the money to go to the moon. You'd just have to sit and think about how useful a powdered drink would be IF you went to the moon. You didn't actually have to go to the moon to come up with Tang.

Hmm. I wonder if the Chinese would come up with something similar and call it Tsang.

Like I said, talk to a teacher.

Please.

He's saying that teachers are part of the problem, Micah.

Teachers = evil.

Where did I say no to education and health care reform? I believe what I said was that if I had to choose between spending my money on space exploration or on education or health care reform, then I would choose space exploration.

As to why am I on this thread? I think that would be obvious. I am for spending more money in space exploration.

I said current spending levels are fine (to me) for education and health care reform. You replied that we aren't spending enough. Fine. I asked if the problem was the lack of money or the system not working. Your response was to ask me what do I care?

When did I ever say I didn't care about those issues? I believe I said they weren't hot issues for me. Doesn't mean that I think they should be disregarded. Nope, just that they rank lower to me. If you have a problem with that, then fine. We have a difference in opinion. I still respect your views.

I have, not only that, I've worked with them. Couple of years as a residential consulor for a migrant education program, and tutor. Most fun I had in a job, ever (although I'm not in the education field).

But, seeing how I come from a 3rd world country with way less resources, and how the education system here is horribly worse than in my native country. I think I can compare and contrast. The system is just broken, plain and simple.

I came to this country for the 10th grade, what a culture shock that was.

The system has to be totally reworked, in addition, the current system discriminates against minorities and discourages advancement of their education.

I had to learn this the hard way when I got shoved into an "easy biology class". Half the class Hispanic, half the class black. My first question in my mind was, "where are the white people?".

When somebody saw me with a Geometry book(in 10th grade, a topic taught in 7th in my country), they asked me why I was in the "easy" biology class. To my horror, I didn't know there were "easy" and "hard" classes, as that's not the system I was raised in. When I asked to be moved to the normal Biology course, I met heavy and condesending opposition from both my teacher and guidance counselor.

The teachers and counselors would always recommend the easiest classes, specially to recently arrived immigrants like myself. Thankfully, I got out of that, but these idiots made me waste time with unecessary classes that set me back a bit ("boom boom biology", geometry, ESOL - the biggest joke in teaching another language, etc)

Yes, the system is inheritly broken.

I never said anything against cheap or low cost space exploration. I just said we need to spend more money on space exploration. I am all for cheaper and better ways for us to explore space. We still need to spend money in order to discovery those avenues.

Part of the brokenness is the fact that classrooms are overloaded, there aren't enough teachers, and they have to pay out their own meager salaries to get supplies sometimes. Couple that with the fact that teachers - good, experienced ones - are being forced to retire for budgetary reasons, and then you realize lack of funding is a MAJOR part of that.

I never said, lack of funding (mainly teacher's salaries) is not a very important factor.

But to me, the number one factor is the how the system is setup. Throwing money at it will help, but the fundamental problem is the US educational system in the first place.

BTW, class sizes. We did fine with big class sizes in my country, teaching much more advanced algebra in the 9th grade than in most senior high schools in the US. So while smaller classes are the ideal, they are not the cure for the larger problem.

We had small class sizes for ESOL, and that didn't help much. They have no idea how to teach languages in this country, no matter how small the class is. I had more immersive foreign language education from kindergarden to 3rd grade than what they teach in ESOL.

You know, those are the same problems most 3rd world countries face yet they produce students with far greater academic achievments and scores. I mean, it's sad when a 5th grader here doesn't know his time-tables, yet a kid from a "worse" system is crusing through algebra.

It seems that money isn't the problem in these countries and in our country. If it's not the teachers, it's the system.

Lots going on in this thread. Just want to jump back a few posts and address the "Why?" of space exploration, and of Mars in particular. Or rather, I'll let James Cameron do it for me:
http://membres.lycos.fr/mogwai/artic...peech_mars.htm

Speech Excerpt:

There aren't any real commercial benefits from going to the moon, at least not in the short term.

Looking toward the more distant future, NASA, in association with ESA and several private organizations, has recently estimated the costs for the construction of a permanent or semi-permanent lunar base; the figure comes in at approximately $391 billion.

In return, they predict possible revenue streams of approximately $10 billion per annum within thirty years from sales of solar energy and liquid oxygen (the latter is a touch dicey as the latest scientific data suggests that there is less oxygen on the moon - in the form of ice – than was previously estimated).

The amount of revenue that could be gained from scientific research is a moot question.

In comparison, a Mars mission would cost the U.S. taxpayer, according to the latest NASA estimates that I've seen, approximately $75 billion.

A permanent Mars base, of roughly the same size as that proposed for the moon, weighs in at around $1700 billion.

Of course, as is the case with all high-risk, technically complex projects such as these, there is a high probability that all of the above projects could run considerably over budget, therefore it might be wise to double, or even triple the figures listed above.

In contrast, it's worth considering the end cost of NASA's highly-successful Mars Pathfinder mission, which was developed in three years and came in at a paltry $280 million.

Well, it's not just the system, it's the society. In most countries, there's lots of peer pressure to perform well.

For example, in my country, if you failed a grade or went to summer school, you were subjeted to a lot of ridicule. To the point, that families would "move" their kids to another school in some cases.

Since everybody wears uniforms, if you saw somebody with a school uniform during vacation you got branded.

Here, I went to summer school one day to take extra classes, and noticed a bunch of people joking that they were going to summer school to have fun.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled outer space!

I see no real need to increase NASA's budget in all honesty. The problem we face here is not one of funding but competency.

We simply do not have the resources or technical ability to conduct cost-effective manned space missions at this moment.

Of course, we could just simply throw a load of money at the problem (as was the case in the 50s and 60s) and hope that we hit lucky. But that is an extremely inefficient method of tackling this devilishly difficult conundrum, and such wanton profligacy is hard to justify when two thirds of the world's population is living below the poverty line.

What we need to do is forget about putting men into space for the moment and let robots do the job for us. A job, might I add that they are far better suited to than man.

By not pouring all of our resources away like cold tea down the drain we are free to concentrate on the essential theoretical work that is required before we can produce an efficient method of putting man into space.

Nelson & Capitan -

I don't think we're disagreeing. I just can't stand to hear people say we don't need to throw ANY MORE money at education. We certainly do.

Reform is needed, and if you noticed, I said a part of the problem is that we're not fixing failing schools, but just letting those kids (and their problems) migrate to better ones.

Why throw away more money on a system that is not working? Reform needs to occur first. Wouldn't it be a surprise that if successful reform is accomplished, that we can educate our children at current spending levels. I am sorry, but I am just tired of the old blank check attitude for education and health care. Fix it first, then after the system works, IF more money is needed then fine.

Well, Cameron still knows how to write powerfully. He's brought up some really important points too, society will never be utopian, allowing us to then focus on the solar system. And it is important, perhaps the most important thing of all, to start developing technologies to defend our planet against the inevitable killer asteroid that's out there somewhere.

But, I still can't see the advantages of standing on Mars, and of spending all this money to do it. We've been sending probes, satellites and freaking tracked robotic vehicles to that planet for forty years. We know what's there. Same with the moon. Exploration doesn't cut it because, scientifically at least, we've already explored them.

We definately need to be focusing on technologies like space travel and long-term survival in zero-G environments, unprotected by the Earth's magnetic shield. But spending thousands of billions just so the planet can fleetingly feel 'good' about itself seems like an awful waste. - If we were talking about travelling out of the solar system to explore another Earth-like planet that we'd discovered that would be worthy indeed. But Mars is just next door, and we've already been there so many times already.

The only truly effective reform you can achieve without the money is to abolish it.

Current spending levels don't meet necessary school budgets, and I swear to you they're not spending wastefully.

The speech was dleivered to the Mars Society in '99. See the speech for archaic refrences to his Mars films, which never seemd to go anywhere. So, at least as of nearly 5 years ago, he could write this well. Let's hope the talent shows up in Battle Angel, eh?

I wish he'd continued to be as vocal about this, and that he'd delivered these kinds of speeches outside of venues where he was only preaching to the converted. The proponents of space exploration need charismatic champions (see: Kennedy), or it's probably not going to be a very ambitious program at all, if it even survives.

Private spaceflight, even low-orbit space tourism may indeed be a reality before NASA ever gets close to putting someone on Mars.

Of course, if we could build this, the enormous costs of manned space exploration would evaporate like mist caught in the dawn sun’s glare.