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Formula 1 - Page 3

post #101 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bombjack
That the parties involved couldn't come up with a solution to allow all teams to race beggars belief. Nearly all commercial interests would be aligned in this. The obvious solution seems to be to run the Michelin teams, on harder compound, from the back of the grid in their own qualifying order; the only good reason this couldn't happen is if the alternate tires never made it to the track. Do we know if they did get them shipped in, on time?
Apparently there was even a problem with the alternate tyres they shipped in. F1 rules allow Michelin and Bridgestone to bring two "types" of tyre to each race, one a high-performance type, one a sturdier backup in case something goes wrong. For whatever reason, Michelin did not bring a back up to Indy. Everyone knew the track had been resurfaced since last year, and the FIA had recently sent a letter to Michelin telling them not to compromise safety for performance (after what happened to Kimi at the Nurburgring.) But Michelin made a mistake, petitioned to fly in a new set of alternate tyres from somewhere, Spain I think, but then realised after analysis of the failed tyres that even the new sets wouldn't solve the problem. That then led to their chicane idea.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bombjack
Assuming the tires were there, then someone had to veto their use. And we can all guess who that was. If anyone says 'why should Bridgestone runners (i.e. Ferrari) suffer for Michelin's mistake?', I'll reply: they're not suffering, they're gaining grid slots. Hell, give the Bridgestone boys the chance to put fresh boots on too, problem solved.
Not quite though. See if you allow the rules to be broken (apparently five different regulations would have to be broken) then you've set a fairly bad precedent for a serious sport. But simply changing the tyres wouldn't have helped, that's why Michelin pushed for the chicane idea, a new chicane to be built on the banking on race morning. Michelin made a huge mistake, and Bridgestone did not, and Michelin actually suggested that both of them be penalised for it. You can't just demand a track be changed because you're having trouble with it. Ferrari and Bridgestone have had huge tyre troubles this year and they never petitioned a track be changed to help them. The Michelin teams then offered to race for no points, if a chicane was built. Which is a nice idea, but flawed since a Michelin team could then still win the race, even if they'd get no points for it. Not very fair either. The upcoming FIA summit meeting will be interesting.
post #102 of 139
Thanks Van Jones, that clarifies things nicely for me. I agree the chicane idea was unfair - and half-baked. I don't think breaking the rules should have been an issue if alternate safe tires were available - the rules exist to serve the sport, not the other way round and the alternative was the farce we ended up with. That's irrelevant if Michelin had nothing they were willing to guarantee of course. There seems to have been little alternative then, given the legal liability position the teams were in.

One thing I will say is I sense Bernie's hand in the media output in all of this. The attempt to construct a narrative of Michelin incompetence is obvious. Kimi's tire failure had nothing to do with Michelin tire wear, and everything to do with him overdriving his car. In fact, that it held together as long as it did was remarkable given its rather quadratic shape. And the two tire compounds have been in use for years, neither is more 'sturdy' (which implies 'safer') than the other, they simply have different [edit: grip levels and] wear rates.

Michelin have clearly ballsed up, but I find the FIA spin-machine sickening. Bernie and Max are happy to throw Michelin to the wolves because pressure has been mounting for a single-manufacturer tire deal anyway.
post #103 of 139
I think the teams will all be supplied with rock-hard tires from a single manufacturer next season. Expect loads of complaints from drivers about lack of grip. Expect delight from the fans who may actually see drivers forced to demonstrate some ability.
post #104 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Foster
Expect loads of complaints from drivers about lack of grip. Expect delight from the fans who may actually see drivers forced to demonstrate some ability.
F1 drivers actuially driving their cars? Heresy!
post #105 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Van Jones
F1 drivers actuially driving their cars? Heresy!
Shhhhh! Bernie might be listening.
post #106 of 139
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Foster
Shhhhh! Bernie might be listening.
Bernie isn't listening, he's telling his appliance,, whoops, I mean wife to cook his supper.
post #107 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bombjack
Assuming the tires were there, then someone had to veto their use. And we can all guess who that was.
please. the way some of the michelin teams tried to put the blame on ferrari was sickening. to all those who think that ferrari should have done more to give the michelin teams a chance to race, i ask this: if the roles had been reversed, with the bridgestone teams (i.e. ferrari) having problems finishing the race, how may of you think that those very same teams would have agreed on putting a chicane in there at the very last minute? seriously.
post #108 of 139
From what I understand, Michelin flew Barcelona spec tires into Indy. While they were in the air they tested the tires to see if they would survive Indy loads and they found that they would not. The Barcelona tires were not an option at that point. It sounds like the problem discovered in Indy is an inherent design flaw in the Michelin construction that is common to their entire line of tires.

It will be interesting to see how things go tomorrow in the World Council. Stoddart is asking for Mosely’s head and the other teams are hinting that if there are strong penalties laid down that they may boycott France and maybe Silverstone. At that point F-1 would be in really bad shape.

Edit:
Apparently there was talk of switching the Michelin runners to Bridgestone for the race.

http://f1.racing-live.com/en/index.h...27124507.shtml
post #109 of 139
Quote:
to all those who think that ferrari should have done more to give the michelin teams a chance to race, i ask this: if the roles had been reversed, with the bridgestone teams (i.e. ferrari) having problems finishing the race, how may of you think that those very same teams would have agreed on putting a chicane in there at the very last minute?
None of them, and Ferrari were right not to do so too. I'm not a fan of theirs (I know it shows) and I was out of order there, taking a hypothetical situation with the tires and running with it to have a go at them. Apologies.

Re: the upcoming meeting, in the words of the curse, these are interesting times.
post #110 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bombjack
Apologies.
no problem. i just hope things will get back to normal (whatever that may be) starting from the next race. it'll be interesting to see how many risks michelin will be ready to take in order to make sure that their teams have at least a chance to start the race; it seems to me that much of the competitivity they got previously this year came from getting ever closer to the point where the tyres can't take anymore punishment but the performance is at its peak.
post #111 of 139
Well, it has been about a month since anyone has posted in here. It is good seeing Ferrari getting their act together and mixing it up with Renault and McLaren. If McLaren keep having the reliability issues that they have been having there is a chance that Ferrari could still get number 2 in the points. I would guess from Barrichello’s leaving Ferrari that Michael will be around for a while. Maybe he was hoping he would have a year or two as number one once Michael retired and got disappointed when he realized that wasn’t going to happen. Hopefully he will have good luck at BAR (assuming the rumors are true).

I was pleasantly surprised by how entertaining the Hungarian race was. It may have been the SpeedTV guys keeping it fun, but I enjoyed watching it. I usually find that race a bit of a yawn. Really the racing has been pretty good. It looks like the midfield cars are pretty closely matched and there has been a good deal of fighting for position.

On a personal note I have received a letter from Michelin and the Indianapolis Motor Speedway concerning the ticket refund for the USGP. It just says they are going to send a check in the future. I haven’t got it yet. They still have not charged my credit card for next years tickets, so I don’t know if I’m in line for some of the free ones or if they just haven’t determined if there will be a race or not.
post #112 of 139
Thread Starter 
I really hope Rubens continues to race. I want him to win some races post-Ferrari. Sure, I like the young guys, Kimi, Alonso, Juan. But I really like the "old" fellows: Coultard and Rubens.
post #113 of 139
It really has been great seeing DC mix it up and have fun this year. If Barrichello can pull that off next year then that would be great.
post #114 of 139
BAR did the smart thing picking an old-timer like barrichello. they probably saw what it meant for red bull to use david coultard's massive experience.

i hope ferrari is going to replace rubens with button: i think he's got the talent to make it big. after all, he's practically unemployed for the next season now that barrichello is on his way, since i don't think they're going to sack takuma sato, becuase BAR gets its motors from honda and he's sort of a poster boy for them, isn't he?
post #115 of 139
Massa is being signed to go to Ferrari, and Button is likely to be held to the contract he signed last year with Williams, even though he's whining to anyone who'll listen that he doesn't want to go. The new V8 formula for 2006 will likely shuffle the deck anyway.
post #116 of 139
yeah, i've heard about massa (he was a test driver for ferrari last year), but i hope it's not true. i think he's too inconsistent and makes awful mistakes a little too often.
post #117 of 139
So now Fernando has won the drivers championship and McLaren has the lead in the constructors points going into the last two races. I think Renault will have a hard time getting the points back unless McLaren has reliability issues. Japan should be a pretty good time. Both teams can concentrate on getting points for the constructor’s championship with out worry about drivers points. I imagine Ferrari should be able to hold off Toyota for third.

I’m a little bit sorry that Stoddart has sold Minardi to Red Bull. I liked how he mixed things up for the big teams politically and how he wasn’t afraid to say what was on his mind. I’ve always been a Minardi fan and they have always been very friendly when I’ve had a chance to talk to them at the USGP. I hope that doesn’t change. I’m not sure what’s up with Midland. The owners seem to have lost interest in the whole thing.

It will be interesting to see how Button and Barrichello get along next year. If the car is up to snuff it could cause some trouble for the big three.

I got me Michelin refund from the USGP last week. I’ve already renewed my tickets for next year. They are also going to give me two free $85 tickets. That is how the free ticket thing is going to work. You renew your existing tickets and they give you two additional $85 tickets free. Since my race tickets are $105 that means that our two free seats will not be next to our race seats.

Best wishes,
Mike
post #118 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by f86sabre
So now Fernando has won the drivers championship
congratz to him, of course, but am i the only one who feels the guy's been unbelievably lucky the whole year? i'm not talking about his excellent driving, of course. but every time the renault mechanics have fucked up during pit stops, it's been with fisichella's car; every (or almost every) time a renault has given up it's been fisichella's; twice montoya was comfortably ahead of alonso, and got bumped in the ass by another car; once or twice raikkonen's car got busted during the final laps; two races ago alonso was behind trulli and without a chance to get by in time, but then someone smashed their car and the safety car came in, allowing him to overtake trulli and finish third. there are more examples that i have forgotten about now, but everything just points to one simple fact IMO: alonso is one talented, extremely lucky driver. would you agree?
post #119 of 139
I would agree 100% that Alonso has been lucky. I don’t think that makes him less worthy of the championship. McLaren’s reliability issues at the start of the season have cost them, or cost Kimi anyway. The fact that Fernando was always there to take advantage of it is what counts. It just may not be as satisfying as if they had raced it out every lap of every race. The comparison of luck between Fernando and Fisi pretty much mirrors the Schumacher and Barrichello situation the last few years. If Ferarri was to blow a pit stop it would be with Reubens. If a Ferrari was to break it would be the #2 car, not the #1 car. That's just the way it goes.
post #120 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by slowpulse
congratz to him, of course, but am i the only one who feels the guy's been unbelievably lucky the whole year?
There's no doubt Alonso has benefitted from poor reliability of Kimi's McLaren this year, a number of his wins have come after something happened to Kimi's car while ahead, and on most occaisons when Kimi was in the race Alonso couldn't keep up with his pace. But that's the nature of the game, and Alonso totally deserves his championship because he and his team put together a consistent and mostly mistake free run to the championship. Kimi's got to be pissed about it, there's nothing like having the fastest car and not being able to win with it.
post #121 of 139
Anyone have any comments on the (alleged) $30m dollar BAR buyout of Button's Williams contract?

He's a good driver, but I don't think he's that good. I reckon Frank Williams is rubbing his hands with delight.
post #122 of 139
It's baffling. He's never won a race. Not one race. This isn't about his talent (which I don't think is that high), it's about how he's a young British driver, and the sponsors would crawl across broken glass to stick their logos on his chest. Frank got his money, and now he doesn't have to put up with 'Button the star'. I think he'll be laughing too.
post #123 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Van Jones
It's baffling. He's never won a race. Not one race. This isn't about his talent (which I don't think is that high), it's about how he's a young British driver, and the sponsors would crawl across broken glass to stick their logos on his chest. Frank got his money, and now he doesn't have to put up with 'Button the star'. I think he'll be laughing too.
The only answer I can come up with is Honda has some hot-shit engine they plan to reveal next season and Button is the only half-decent driver available to throw at it.
post #124 of 139
It was good to see that Fernando had the balls to make some spectacular passes at Suzuka. Kimi’s come from the back win was pretty cool too. It was a good race. It should be fun to see what happens in China and to see if the FIA penalizes Sato and Villenuve for taking people off.
post #125 of 139
man, how lame was fisichella? after ralf schumacher had gone in for his first pit stop, he basically could have built a monster lead ahead of the other cars and won. instead he let a driver who started from the 17th spot overcome him during the final lap. that's gotta hurt.

but kimi was truly phenomenal. i'm not sure about this... has he actually won more races than alonso now, or are they tied?
post #126 of 139
Kimi now has one more win than Alonso (7 vs 6). It was a pretty exciting race, only because it rained during qualifying, mixing up the order. And both Villeneuve and Sato have been penalised for their crashes. Sato was disqualified (big deal) and Villeneuve was dropped one position (again, big deal).
post #127 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Van Jones
It was a pretty exciting race, only because it rained during qualifying, mixing up the order.
here's an idea: no more qualifying sessions. the order is always the inversed total standings for the moment, which means that the people at the top always start last and have to fight their way to the top, mixing it up during the course of the season.

i know, it'd be slightly weird and not really true to the sport itself, but what do you think about it?

(oh, it would also make the montecarlo race completely fucked up, but hey...)
post #128 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by slowpulse
here's an idea: no more qualifying sessions. the order is always the inversed total standings for the moment, which means that the people at the top always start last and have to fight their way to the top, mixing it up during the course of the season.

No, it's tempting due to the lack of excitement in races these days, but it'd be too damaging to the integrity of the sport. Qualifying needs to be changed back to what it was, where drivers could set their cars for speed, qualify and then set their cars for the race. That way you'd naturally get cars that were faster in the race but were starting behind other cars. Add to that a major reduction in downforce levels and a banning of traction control systems and the old excitement may well come back into the sport.
post #129 of 139

Going to bump this thread up...anyone watching this season?

 

Looks like it's going to be another insane season due to the tires. Probably going to come down to a three way race for the title between Vettel, Raikkonen, and Alonso. With perhaps Hamilton or Rosberg sneaking in. The only way that'll happen is if Mercedes figures out how to have race pace to go along with the great qualifying work.

 

Also, it was just announced that starting in 2015, Honda is coming back to F1 as the engine supplier for McLaren...McLaren-Honda round 2!

post #130 of 139

I was going to respond to this thread a couple of days ago when I first saw it but got distracted by something shiny.... :)

 

I'm a relatively new fan (last couple years) to F1 as I've been more into bike racing (MotoGP, WSBK).

A buddy got me into it after talking about the 'new kid', Lewis Hamilton.

It has been interesting to watch the rise of Hamilton only to see him falter a bit. I've been wondering how he will do after his move from McLaren to Mercedes. (even if it was done for the money)

 

The tech involved in racing these days is mind numbing...to say nothing of the $$ spent!!!

 

This season seems to be a little more balanced competition wise, at least initially, which is always good.

Whether this is due to the car tech, tires, weather, etc. ??

 

Watched a bit of the Monaco practice this morning. I love the fact that they are still racing there despite how fucking dangerous it is. I can't help but think that all the manufacturers have an extra semi-truck just full of extra bodywork.

post #131 of 139
post #132 of 139

To drag this thread back from the depths of time....
 

Quote:

F1 chief Bernie Ecclestone's mother-in-law 'kidnapped in Sao Paulo'

 

The mother-in-law of Formula One boss Bernie Ecclestone has been kidnapped in Brazil with criminals demanding a ransom of $36.5m (£28m), reports say.

Aparecida Schunck, 67, the mother of Mr Ecclestone's wife Fabiana Flosi, was abducted from her Sao Paulo home.

 

If confirmed, the ransom would be the largest ever demand in Brazilian criminal history.

 

Mr Ecclestone, 85, is one of the most powerful men in sport and is worth an estimated $3.1bn (£2.4bn).

 

<cont>

post #133 of 139
Last year I realised that while the races themselves are entertaining (most of them, -zzzzmonacozzz), I'm more drawn to the behind-the-scenes soap opera, such as the latest Driver's World Championsip and its aftermath.

After two years of being crushed by Lewis Hamilton (his former BFF), Nico Rosberg, the only son of a F1 World Champ and an overall uber-alfa-male Keke Rosberg, finally gets his title. And retires two weeks later! Which is kinda great and respectable, except for Team Mercedes who now lack a driver for the best car in the grid.

The resulting panic has so far involved every single driver in the grid. An offer has been sent to Team Williams, which so far has declined to let their top driver go to Merc, because then they'd be stuck with two under 20 y/os. Which is a problem when your main sponsor is alcohol giant Martini & Rossi. There's also legal battles! Driver contract mayhem! Spoiled young driver at T Williams whose daddy pays for everything! Dramatic un-retiriments! Shitload of money burning! Cats and dogs living together! Mass hysteria! Ron Howard is probably working on a film adaptation as we speak.
post #134 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virtanen View Post

Last year I realised that while the races themselves are entertaining (most of them, -zzzzmonacozzz), I'm more drawn to the behind-the-scenes soap opera, such as the latest Driver's World Championsip and its aftermath.

After two years of being crushed by Lewis Hamilton (his former BFF), Nico Rosberg, the only son of a F1 World Champ and an overall uber-alfa-male Keke Rosberg, finally gets his title. And retires two weeks later! Which is kinda great and respectable, except for Team Mercedes who now lack a driver for the best car in the grid.

The resulting panic has so far involved every single driver in the grid. An offer has been sent to Team Williams, which so far has declined to let their top driver go to Merc, because then they'd be stuck with two under 20 y/os. Which is a problem when your main sponsor is alcohol giant Martini & Rossi. There's also legal battles! Driver contract mayhem! Spoiled young driver at T Williams whose daddy pays for everything! Dramatic un-retiriments! Shitload of money burning! Cats and dogs living together! Mass hysteria! Ron Howard is probably working on a film adaptation as we speak.

Hamilton must be laughing though. He should have next year in...the...bag.

Have you ever read "The Piranha Club"?
post #135 of 139
Not sure about Lewis owning next year. The kind assholes at Ferrari just pulled a shitty innocent-letter-to-FIA -stunt that basically bans a suspension system employed by Mercedes and Red Bull. Which means both now have just two months to drastically redesign and build their cars. Shitty move but anything goes for the win, right?

I hadn't even heard of that book. Definitely going to check it out, thanks for the recommendation.
post #136 of 139

I stopped paying attention of F1 info after the last race and I have only now, after reading the above post, have learned that Rosberg 'retired'.

 

While he's a good driver, he always struck me as more than a bit of an whiny asshole. To quit after winning seems really chickenshit.

post #137 of 139

It's not a bad read. It doesn't give quite the insight you hope into how the set up really works, but there is enough meat and history to not make reading it a waste of time.

 

The title comes from Ron Dennis reported remark to Eddie Jordan when the latter formed his team - "welcome to the Piranha Club". It didn't take long for Jordan to find out just how sharp-toothed the other members were; outmanoeuvred by Ecclestone and Walkinshaw at the Villa D'Este when Schumacher was poached by Benetton after one race (which Schumacher didn't finish a lap of; he'd blistered the practice sessions though).

post #138 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by VTRan View Post

I stopped paying attention of F1 info after the last race and I have only now, after reading the above post, have learned that Rosberg 'retired'.

While he's a good driver, he always struck me as more than a bit of an whiny asshole. To quit after winning seems really chickenshit.

I disagree. He's spent his entire career with one goal in mind, winning a championship like his father. But in the last few years some big changes happened. Namely he got married and had a kid. he realised how big a chance he had to win with Mercedes advantage and so greatly increased his focus, at the expense of spending time his new family (mirroring his own childhood somewhat) . He made a deal with his wife that he'd quit when he reached his goal, which he's now done.

It's pretty cool actually. He's still young, has hundreds of millions in the bank, has a family and has achieved his ambition. Good for him.

We don't need Rosberg for an exciting 2017, Mercedes micromanagement has shown us that's not going to happen. We need Red Bull to step it up and challenge Mercedes. Fingers firmly crossed.
post #139 of 139
Nico's never led an ordinary life. His dad bought him his first go-kart when he was four. He never got to go to birthday parties because he was always either training or racing. F1 Championship hasn't just been his career goal, it's defined and shaped his entire life. Now he can finally move on.

And still he didn't have the balls to say it to his dad's face (told it to his mom on telephone). Which is chickenshit.
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