Why is it so hard to accept LotR's as having anything to do with horror?

Interesting question. It could have something to do with some people just not liking the idea of a horror movie.

Well, I do.

But it's mostly romance and Swords & Sorcery for me.

I don't consider it a horror movie at all really.

However...when Shelob stung Frodo it was the only time I can remember hearing a large chunk of the audience gasp in a theater, and not just a few young girls. They just don't make suspense like that anymore.

I'm with you Floyd. I think there is dark fantasy in all supernatural horror movies and there is plenty of horror in dark fantasy. Trying to separate the two is hopeless. The Shelob scene was one of the most frightening things I saw at the movies last year. Stephen King's The Stand is considered to be a horror novel without question. Replace Middle Earth with middle America, change Gollom into The Trash Can Man and Flagg into Sauron and you have the same thing. Good fighting against evil. LOTR has a lot more horrific beasties in it though and Mordor was a much more evil looking place than Las Vegas.

Keep in mind that anytime spirits, demons, undead, or the like come up ANYWHERE, the subject of religion comes in. Notice how vampires never seem to be afraid of crosses hardly anymore in film (let alone crossing running water, being immersed, or any other holy items)?

It all stems from separating religion from fiction because, quite frankly, many movie watchers see religion AS a fantasy element anytime it manifests itself. After all, when was the last time YOU had a lengthy conversation with a burning bush?

Whoops, almost forgot...


The 'devil' usually has flashier special effects, too...!

I was also scared by Sauron and his minions in my youth, but I didn't get that in the movies. They weren't exactly "pussies," but they didn't have the same impact on me that, say, the Ringwraiths did when I first read LOTR (when I was 14 or so). The novel doesn't have the same impact anymore, either, but I've read quite a lot of fantasy and horror (and horror/fantasy) novels since I experienced LOTR for the first time, so I guess I've been desensitized. Oh, well...
As for LOTR being on the cover of Fangoria, well, I can't say it makes complete sense to me. I certainly understand the arguement for its inclusion in the unholiest of unholy publishings (shameless promotion time, kids), but not necessarily the act itself.
But, come to think of it, the Witch King's lair was pretty friggin' scary looking...

Funny to see that drawing the line is so hard to do..
I don't see LOTR as a horror movie. If you do then you'll have to do the same with things like Disney's THE BLACK CAULDRON. But I do think it has enough horror elements in it to be worth discussing on the boards for example. I can also understand that Fangoria should have an article or 2 on the subject (from what I remember they focused on what could appeal to horror fans, like Christopher Lee or sfx) but putting it on the cover might have been a bit too much.

LotR definitely has it's wonderfully horrific moments. From the film, my fave is when Frodo falls into the Dead Marshes. Was anybody else creeped the hell out by that? Made the hair stand up on the back of my neck...

Shelob is my second fave scary moment from the films (probably by fave from the book).

In "The Hobbit" the Riddles in the Dark chapter, where Bilbo finds the Ring and has the riddle contest with Gollum to avoid being eaten, is also pretty goddamn scary. I've seen it included in a couple of horror (not fantasy) anthologies.

But, that said, they aren't 'horror stories' since their primary goal isn't to frighten the reader. Many crime stories and mysteries have quite scary parts, yet they aren't horror; they just contain horrific elements. ER (the TV show) can be scary as hell, yet it ain't a horror show.

Alice's Girl, you hit it right on the head (and cleaved it in two )

They're fantasy films, not horror movies if you gotta put them into a genre. But yes, whether it be horror effects, Christopher Lee's involvement or Peter Jackson himself and his past filcks, it is worth discussing.

"The Stand" thing is interesting. I've always felt the book was essentially a re-writing of LOTR in the present day. Even down to the fucked-up Gollumesque guy carrying the bomb into Flagg's stronghold.

I think it's more of a horror movie than Jason X yet that wouldn't be questioned when brought up here. Horror, Science-Fiction and Fantasy are entwinded so much. They can all be VERY different and yet they can also be all the same.

For example: Vampires, espesially in Blade.

Vampirism is a virus. It infects and turns. That isn't Fantasy, that's Science-Fiction.

And yet, we have ancient Vampire Gods and a large "ritual" at the films conclusion: that isn't Science-Fiction, it's Fantasy.

Yet Vampires themselves are, by nature, Horror.

The point is, too seperate the three is very difficult and though films don't always cross the line a lot of them could eaisly be shifted genre from horror to sf to fantasy with veyr few alterations.

The Ring Wraiths are VERY horror, very creepy and dark.

The Lord of the Rings may not be "horror" but then what defines that anyway. Friday the 13th, Ringu, Jason X, Hammers Dracula are all HUGLEY different.

Anyway, I say it's as much horror, if not more, than some things we willingly label "horror".

- Scarecrow

I dont conisder it horror, not even the books.

I just see it as a sword and sorcery epic with many horror elements, just like everyfantasy novel that has come out after it.

I love the movie, dont get me wrong, I just dont see it as horror.

Define Horror anyways

I mean what is horror? Jason / Freddy / Pinhead are no different from the ogres in LOTR. They are fantastic inventions from someones mind. They're is nothing real about them. That would make them mythical or Fantasy. Horror is relative to the person expiriencing it. I think anything that is displayed on the screen as horrific that can happen in real life is true horror, for example someone hacking people up with a chainsaw, eating people, any type of war. Something that generates true fear

If we go by that alone then whats the point of having genres; whats the point of labeling the movies with those categories.

LOTR has horror elements...such as Orcs and the rest, but its not a horror film, no how, no way.

I mean I just dont see it, not saying you dont have an arguement, but I just dont see it.

Oh well.

There's another book with Demons, Witches, Cannibals, and a dead army that most don't think of as horror, The Bible.

I think it has more to do with the writers intent. Little kids are scared by The Wizard of Oz with it's witches and flying monkeys.

They're great books. I read them back in the early 70's but I never thought of them as horror.

By the way, what horror film did Peter Jackson make? I know about his early gore comidies Bad Taste and Dead Alive (Brain Dead) but I don't know of any horror movies he did.

Dead Alive is a horror film, I mean if Evil Dead 2 can be considered horror, then Dead Alive is horror...just not serious horror

I think that is the loophole that allows film like these to be in our beloved genre

See what you started Rami? sheeesshh.

Im not really complaining tho, I love these films.

This is CREATURE-Corner, not Horror-Corner or Slasher-Corner or Gore-Corner. If someone wants to drop a post on LOTR here why shouldn't they? Maybe a Sam and Frodo are gay type of post should go somewhere else but why not a discussion regarding Gollum or the Nazgul? We move from Gozilla to Halloween to Dawn of the Dead to Ichi the Killer without complaint, why not include LOTR. I for one would rather see more people posting, not less.

Well no one is saying that..unless of course..I skipped over someone's post.

I was just responding to his thread.

which now that I re-read his question I realized I answered it wrong.


Do I think it is horror? NO

Do I think it has anything to do with horror? Most definitely.

Yeah, it pretty much boils down to the old question what is horror and what isn't. Everyone has his/her own definition of that term. So it's not really surprising that some argue that LOTR is horror and some dismiss that notion entirely and get worked up about the Fango covers (their PLANET OF THE APES cover was much, much worse IMO).

I totally agree that there are horror elements in the books and - to a lesser degree - also in the movies. There's a part early in the book of FELLOWSHIP where it is mentioned that Gollum sneaks into human houses and steals babies out of cradles in order to eat them! That's horror right there. However, I thought that those horriffic elements were few and far between and it was mostly too cutsey and wholesome for my tastes.

For me at least supernatural elements do not automatically make something into a horror novel/film/game. My personal definition is that it also has to be dark and fucked up and really disturbing. Maybe if LOTR had been filmed as a R rated trilogy of films with gory STARSHIP TROOPER-esque fights with Cave Trolls (the anemic fight in FOTR frustrated me to no end) Trolls and Oliphants I may see them as horror. But the PG-13 rating took away pretty much everything that could have been scary. Sauron is not even threatening in the movies, the Ringwraiths are pathetic, the Orcs don't do anything nasty, Gollum is a pathetic piece of tear-jerking CGI ...

Horror it ain't.

I was not directing anything toward you or anybody else. We all have opinions and that's good, even if it turns into 3 pages of whether or not real zombies can run or cannot run. I just get prickly if I get the impression that someone's running around telling others what they should or shouldn't post. To be fair that's really not be done in this thread but I've seen it happen in others.

I get the impression that antics like this have gotten out of control in the past and it turned a lot of people off. If the Corner turned into a big pissing match I'd find somewhere else to go and I would be very sad.(but my employer would probably be much happier).

Hey I agree and understand.

People are bound to have opinions.

Opinions are bound to differ.

I wouldn't call that a "pissing match" ...

well to be fair, he did say "IF it turned into a pissing match.."


Im all about debate and arguing, what more can one expect from a message board where one's opinion is there bread N butter, but I think he's afraid to come down to

Someone: "I like this movie"
Another: "well that movie is stupid"
Other: "no you are stupid"
That one guy: "oh no, fuck you fucker fuck fuck fuckhead"

Someone: "I dont need this shit, your opinions suck and I fucked your mom"

not that anyone does that, but ya know what Im saying.

Well, I do note I have no trouble with opinions as documented earlier in the post of mine you quote. I would define pissing match as the actual topic being left behind and replaced with an intensly personal "I'm right you're wrong you asshole" situation. Take the Religion or Politics threads for instance. I'm really interested in some of the stuff that goes on over there but have only posted a few times because mainly its just a few people trying to one up each other. I don't find it interesting and I spend little time even reading them.

EDITED: Etigrens last post came in before mine. What he says.

I think it's great to post about LOTR, Dead Alive and Evil Dead 2 but I don't see either of them as horror films. I would put Dead Alive and Evil Dead 2 in the same cat. comedies with some horror. Don't get me wrong I am a big fan of all three Evil Dead movies and I love all three LOTR movies. Dead Alive I really don't care for. It's to much like the Airplane movies, silly.

WHAT?

fuck you fucker fuck fuck fuckhead. Disagree with me, you asshat.














/sarcasm

Evil Dead wasn't horror. It was a suspense thriller.

Whatever you think about LOTR being horror, or not being horror, or whatever, is irrelevant.
Gigli, my friends, is true horror. I can't believe I actually watched it - all of it. My eyes still bleed from time to time. Due yourself a favor and stay the hell away from that terrifying piece of the ungodliest horror.

A quick shot of LSD to the eyelids will help with that.

Trust me, it helped me get through the my first viewing of Redneck Zombies.