KILL BILL #2 Post-Release Discussion (Spoilers) - Page 3

mecha, I agree beatty would have been better, and I never said he couldn't have given a "surprise" performance on par with henry fonda OUATITW. what I was saying was I felt carradine was more naturally menacing (and more naturally associated with martial arts stuff) and that while tarantino's bag is irony, and beatty would have delivered the goods more satisfyingly in that department, carradine was not only fine in the evil department but he was also quite good in the "relationship" scenes. this is perhaps where we disagree... but I don't think time will prove anything because most people aren't going to be thinking in terms of who might have been cast and how good they might have been while watching the movie. they're just going to see a very entertaining flick with a very good performance by "that guy from kung fu."

I really did enjoy Kill Bill Vol. 2, but not nearly as much as I did Vol. 1. It seemed like Volume 1 was heavily weighted with all the great things Kill Bill had to offer. I did however love the characters Budd, and Bill. That's one of the main reasons I found Volume 2 to be so great.

I think if the movie was not split up into seperate volumes it might be in my top five favorite movies of all time, but as it stands, Volume 2 just seems sub-par when comparing it to Volume 1.

In all seriousness....

I don't hate Carradine in this, and he has some okay 'moments'. (I particularly liked his reaction after coming back from Pai Mei.)

I just believe his performance is incredibly flawed in a film that is mostly masterful Tarantino. The 3rd act also hinges on his repartee with the awesome UMA. It sadly comes off lop-sided, to the detriment of The Bride's emotional journey.

Fixed.

For freakin' sake, one can only assume if Beatty could own the role of Bill. Beatty ain't even in the film; yeah, I know the role was written for Beatty, but in the end, it was Carradine.

I for one, believe that there is only one person that could have portrayed the "snake charmer" and that's Carradine.

I don't want to spend endless hours debating on whether I loved Vol. 2 only because I'm part of the "easily swayed, brain dead masses". I'm not.

I know what I like. And I liked this movie. I walked out of that theater last night, reluctantly. I could have stayed another 2-hours to watch this again.

I have no more doubts of Uma's talents as an actress. She sold me last night. Daryl Hannah - who would've known? The scenes between The Bride and Bill were fantastic; both actors oozing charisma and playing off of each other in a way that didn't shout, "watch us act and deliver some cool lines of dialogue", but both just living in the skin of their characters. Just some great stuff. All over the fucking place.

Again, I loved this movie.

Personally I can't fathom Beatty(but I do admit I have never really thought that much of Warren Beatty) in the role of Bill, especially since QT said he was going to play the role much like an evil James Bond. I think Carradine was note perfect in the role. Granted you rarely have reason to fear him compared to the build up. Still I love him in this role. But to each his own. The general consensus is that the movie is good no matter what, and for that I am thankful.

Vol. 2
Chapter 6: Massacre at Two Pines (?)
Chapter 7: [I don't remember what it was called, but the title was shown when Budd got to the parking lot of the strip club]
Chapter 8: The cruel tutelage (?) of Pai Mei
Chapter 9: ELLE and I
"Final Chapter": Face to Face

I guess my memory's hazy chapter wise too.

Kill Bill Vol. 2 was rad. However, I have a nitpick about Elle Driver's change of heart towards the honorable demise of the Bride. In volume 1 she is perfectly happy with putting poison in the Bride's saline drip, a cowardly way to kill her. In fact she becomes enraged when Bill commands her to abort the mission.

Flash forward to Volume 2. Now Elle is furious that Budd would simply bury The Bride alive...

Chapter 7: The Lonely Grave of Paula Schultz.

I would have liked to have seen Warren Beatty as Bill. But for some bizarre reason, he didn't do it. I can't think of a good reason as to why, its not like he super busy.

Not that Carradine wasn't great, cause he was.

I had thought of that, but perhaps she just didn't like Budd and the idea of him killing her after he had "fallen" so far. After all, she poisoned him and Pai Mei, so she certainly wasn't averse to that method.

Elle was disgusted that Budd could have defeated her so easily. It's like finding out the individual you have built up as your ultimate nemesis, got punk'd by someone you have zero respect for.

It just ruins it for her. Not only did she lose the satisfaction of the kill, her perception of Beatrix is brought down to earth as well. It's not so much what Budd did, but the fact that he was the one who did it.



Just to clarify again.....


Beatty playing the role is now just a great what if.

What's done is done.

My qualms with Carradine are about Carradine....period.

I like vol. 2 a little bit more then the first. They character stuff makes it better.

Daryl Hannah plays a great villian. I don't think any of us would have thought that a year ago.

About your own opinion maybe. I loved Carradine in this role. And there seems to be a larger number of folks who feel the same, regardless of how right you say you are.

Heck, 6 months ago.

Based on volume one, I didn't expect her capable of so much presence.

Loved QT's homage to Pris' death from Blade Runner, when she freaks out about losing her eye.

Great movie. No complaints except two things:

1) Too many music cues. WAY too many.

2) What's up with the two credit sequences? Why do I have to sit through a full three minutes crediting performers who were not even in the movie.

Small fry, I know. Mostly, the film rocked. Poland is a tool.

I just can't seem to get a straight answer on this. Is the Michael Parks who played Sheriff MacGraw in Vol. 1 the same Michael Parks who played Esteban in Vol. 2? IMDB is hazy on this issue.

If so, then that was an amazing acting performance. I don't think i would have ever realized that it was the same person.

I love that the film features the most obscure Friday the 13th reference in film history - specifically Friday the 13th Part 3 in 3-D.

I heard it...said, "Why does that sound so familiar?" Got home, did a little looking on my shelves, and figured out why.

Of course, once you look up the name at imdb.com, it becomes clearer...

My biggest gripe is that The Rza didn't do the score for this one...his score was almost flawless in Vol 1

I could be wrong, but wasn't RZA and Robert Rodriguez creditted for the score in Volume II?

I loved that the secondery characters were more intersting then the leads in a lot of cases. I mean during the scenes with Bill's "father", weremn't you thinking how cool it would be for him to have his own movie or something.

God damn. The Best movie I've seen since City of God.

Superior to Volume 1 in every way except the soundtrack music (not that I have anything against spaghetti Western scores, mind you).

The duel between Beatrix and Elle has the overdone House of Blue leaves sequence beat hands down. Better coreography, better stuntwork, better editing, better camera work, better everything.

I Absolutely Loved the Pai Mei sequence with all of it's nods to the Shaw Brothers productions of the 70's. Quentin got all of the touches just right: The zoom lenses, the fast paced wah-wah guitar music, the obviously phony beards and wigs. Its was like something straight out of Fists of the White Lotus. He did us chop-socky fans proud.

Can't wait to see Volumes 1 & 2 edited into one three hour long revenge/grindhouse classic.

Thanks for the ride Quent.

I agree with you that some of the secondary characters were excellent. I wish i knew more about Darryl Hannah's character. She would have had a unique view on everything, being a total psychotic bitch.

I just wonder what the thing about her name was. What exactly is the significance of the name Beatrix Kiddo?

silly rabbit, Trix are for Kids.

It made that out of place line from Vol. 1

Oren: "Silly rabbit"
Bride: "Trix are for Kidds"

have some significance. What it is, I really do not know.

I watched the movie last night, and I'm still raving about it. I loved everything about it. In fact, the only complaints I can come up with is that there needs to be more Kill Bill. More Pem pai, more Elle Driver, more Budd, more Bill. I know that the quick endings and short fights, especially with Bill, just highlight the drama and are supposed to harken back to the one shot kills of a Sierro Leone movie, but I can't stop my fanboy mind from imagining a ten minute battle between Bill and the Bride showcasing all of their considerable skill. That's not even a real complaint, I can't complain about it, it's that good. Chalk up the rambleness of the post to love of Kill Bill Volume 2.

For me the one weak point of this film was the brief replay of Uma getting shot in the head...the violence didn't bother me, it just felt a lot like the scene in Two Towers that helped the morans who decided not to see the first one.

Every other scene had me glued...gorgeous cinematography(to me)...Michael Madsen being a magnificent bastard...the argument with his boss, that alone would do for me in terms of Tarantino worldplay. Sid Haig. Daryl Hannah, jesus christ, I remember someone on these boards a few years ago when Armaggedon came out that her and Liv Tyler were the same, ie pretty, not a lot there, I think that can change now. The Cruel Tutelage... I am no kungfu guru but I know enough to have absolutely loved those scenes. And Michael Parks...more work from you please, to hell with Eddie Murphy as multi-character actor in one film...he is the same character in Dusk TIll Dawn according to IMDB, if so I wonder how this works into the Tarantino/Rodriguez universe, as he met his end, obviously before but in addition to that...

The two leads, Uma was fucking off the chart. For me Carradine was fucking perfect. I have only seen a few Kung Fu eps so I have no baggage with him, so him playing a Pimp of Death as I've heard his character called is ideal...why because I dont know any pimps of death and I dont know Carradine. Bea's obvious love for him is given an air of mystery the guy is slick but he's not particularly attractive, so why is this amazon so enamored, made me speculate beyond what the character gave us.

As far as Tarantino goes, I'll gladly admit, I am not fully aware of where all his references come from, its obvious though that all his works are referential, pastiche, homage, etc. And Kill Bill I would say is the movie of his that owes the most to Tarantinos love of movies. But every time I watch a movie of his even his work in 4 Rooms, the entire movie he creates, every single element, works to create the likes of something I've never experienced. And this is why on the whole Bill 1 and 2 work for me, I watch it, and there are things I recognize here and there, music cues, cinematography, wordplay, but on the whole there is nothing that I consider remotely analgous, and there is not a single frame my eyes aren't glued to the screen.

QT may or may not end up creating a body of work that puts him among cinema immortals, but up to this the point every minute of his directorial work has left me unequivocally entertained, there is no other director I can say that of.

whats the reference?

Wonderful movie. And hands down the best Tarantino's ever done. I loved every second of it.

High Points:

Carradine- I dissagree with Mecha Superior He was Bill, I belived that Beatrix could love him and I could believe that he would have no problems shooting his lover in cold blood.

Budd(Sidewinder)- I agree the scenes in the strip club were rather unessasary, but otherwise he was one of the best characters in the movie. Harsh but not sadistic like Elle. A little uncouth but still quite clever.

Elle's Eye

Pei Mei- " I Hate the goddamn Japs!"

BB- The cutest kid that ever played with guns. I think my heart broke when she played dead for her daddy.

I love this movie!

you know how to ruin a great film? see it in a bad theater.


I saw KB#2 last night and to my dismay had to suffer through the worst elements of seeing a movie in a theater.

This was an 8 pm show. We get there and there is a woman with her infant baby. Strike #1 (the baby cried off and on throughout the movie)

Six College geeks who obsess over comics sit right behind us and not only are they talking about comics before the movie starts, talk through the entire movie. Anything that was considered a one-liner in the movie is instantly repeated by these dumbasses. My favorite quote from one of the dumbasses after watching the HERO trailer, "Whoa.. this movie was actually made 10 years ago before crouching tiger hidden dragon.. its just now being released." -dumbass ! Strike #2

A man sits down on my wife's right and plays with his PDA all night long. Dont see a fucking movie if you'd rather play in excel! moron.

An older black lady and her 18 year old white dude sit to my left. His phone rings throughout the ENTIRE movie. I understand if it rings once.. and you forget to turn it off.. but to leave it on is the most assholiest thing to do in a theater. Strike #3

and my last rant. I HATE phones that flip up with those lit screens. They are such a distraction from watching the movie ---seeing these 2"x3" rectangular flashlights spotting the entire theater.

anyway... other than that.. I did enjoy the movie. but I thought it took about 30 minutes to get me back into the film.

Yep, that was the same Michael Parks who played both McGraw and Esteban.
There's a reason Tarantino loves the man.

Add to this the fact that the scene in Vol1 was shortly after the massacre...Elle & Bill are together at that point, and Bill either dated Kiddo before, or else had a fling with her; either way, she's competition for Elle.
Now, several years later, when Beatrix has taken out O-Ren, her bodyguards, and Green, after coming out of a coma, she has a healthy respect for her.


On a side note, I've always been "eh" about Carradine, until now...now, I love the man.

There can't be enough praise for Carradine's performance. The writing in that sandwich scene is average at best, but he makes it work. You just love watching the guy slapping those pieces of meat on there, cutting off the crust, wielding that big knife. He knew what he was doing.

My favorite stuff with him is in the beginning, at the chapel. When the Bride introduces him to Tommy as his father, and then later Tommy offers him to give her away, Carradine has to play several different emotions in that scene. He goes from half entertained, half offended directly to Jack Nicholson inspired psychosis (with that great, teethy line "Luckily for us, that wasn't the CASE!"). And you can really get a sense of sadness and lost when he tells Tommy that giving Bea away would be asking for a lot. Really great stuff.

Oh, but the best line, and his best delivery is at the end. When he tells the Bride:

"And for the record, letting someone believe that a loved one is dead when they're not is very cruel."

It's perfect. Because that's exactly what he's done to her when he "kidnaps" BB.

And then there's Carradine's last moment. God he looks awesome when he stands up and buttons his coat. Does anyone know what music that's from? It sounds like another track from Navaho Joe, but I'm not certain.

As far as that overrated remark goes, I can kind of understand it. When people are hailing a movie as a masterpiece ten days (or more) before its release, I don't think it's unjustified. The movie is flawed, no way around it---and nobody seems to be focusing on the flaws. It's as if people WANT this to be a supreme film because of the great stuff in it. Unfortunately, there are tons of problems that people seem to ignore. Passionate fever does not a great movie make.

So, are you saying that The Phantom Meanace wasn't a great movie?

Hunh, guess I'm in the miniscule camp of thinking this movie was actually far less than it could have been. I won't go into intricate detail why (the love-fest will subsume this post soon enough), except to list the following:

1) The tone shift from vol.1 and vol.2 is very jarring. I tolerated the worst aspects of vol.1 simply because of the infectious, innovative energy that kept the film rolling full-blast to the conclusion. Here Tarantino slows the pace and ditches most of the wacky homage (with a few notable exceptions), exposing the basic poverty of the characters, dialogue and storyline. Been here before, folks, and this time (vol. 2) tricky camera-work and editorial action "impact" isn't masking how disjointed and over/underdeveloped in is in certain respects. Why give O-ren a ten minute introduction, and then neglect to show anything solid of Bill's past, presumably the main character/antagonist? This kitchen-sink approach feels a hell of a lot more like QT wanking his influences rather than presenting something intricately conceptualized and brilliantly brought forth.

2) Perhaps it’s just me, but I don't find incessant pop-culture references to be the height of genius, particularly when Bill's "big speech" about superman re-states a point made 10 years ago--and much more effectively, IMO--in Stone's adaptation of Natural Born Killers. Pop-culture riffing among killers felt face-slapping fresh in Pulp Fiction...here it comes off as tired and overwrought, perhaps adding emphasis to Avery's "help".

3) I liked this film more for its parts than its whole. The middle section is classic QT, IMO -- but, and this is the 'but' that pretty much aggravated the hell out of me -- BILL. How is this old fucker a bad-ass, I ask? Does QT ever establish that this "murderous bastard" lives up to the reputation that we are constantly TOLD throughout vol. 1 and 2? Let's see: he shoots a beaten-up woman in the head (while off-screen), and stabs O-ren's father in the back (in anime format). Until the last less-than-a-minute fight of vol. 2, we never see Bill--as Carradine--do anything except talk and frolic with children. I'm supposed to believe this washed-up alchie is the leader of an assassin quintet & one of the deadliest men to walk the earth? I'm well aware that QT shot a sequence in a Chinese market where Bill takes out Michael Jai White and several other Chinese warriors; if QT had put this sequence in, it would have established Bill's character as actually dangerous rather than the puffed-up pop-culture-spewing artifact we are eventually introduced to. Big fucking ball-dropper, right there...though given the effusive love on this board, I suppose QT can do no wrong among cinemaphiles.

Perhaps the fact that I don't *love* the spaghetti western genre might have something to do with my overall disappointment. It just felt that the energy and technical brilliance of vol. 1 was, by and large, missing from this flick; and QT's attempt to make these caricatures into characters failed by the very fact that he pumps the grindhouse genre, with all of its weaknessess, for an entire film before trying to get "deep" with the pathos and drama.

oh well. I'll probably enjoy it more when QT releases the super-duper DVD with all the cut stuff included.

As for trailers...

Van Helsing looks even more like campy shit on the big screen. Sheesh.

Hero looks fucking BAD-ASS.

Yes. That is exactly what I'm saying. Thank you for reading my post so delicatly and jerking out the subtext.

I live to serve.

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'Cause you know - like there's always some motherfucker trying' to ice skate uphill - that there's gonna' be somebody in here who hasn't seen the fucking move.
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When the flashback to The Bride in grade school happens, the teacher calls out the name "Marty Kitrosser". That name struck me as an immediate reference, something I was really familiar with, but couldn't quite place. Initially, I thought it was someone connected to First Blood - but after I checked a batch o' my old VHS, I discovered that he was the credited screenwriter on Friday 3.

Weird as all hell. Like maybe the last kid in the class is Joey Zito?

So when I checked imdb, I discovered that Kitrosser has been the script supervisor on Tarantino's flicks - and that would be the real reason he gets name-dropped, obviously.

Still, how fucking obscure is that?

Last night, after I saw it, I thought to myself: "Hmmmmm...that was kind of...boring." I loved parts of it, but I became bored at times and couldn't understand why certain scenes were going on as long as they were. They were maddeningly long at times, and seemingly pointless. I still knew I liked it, but wasn't sure how much.

I woke up today with much more appreciation for it. I realized the subtleties of the film, the emotion of the film. And I realized I need to see it again.

Something my friend and I talked about last night that I thought would be insanely cool is what if the Hanzo sword that Budd pawned is the same sword that Butch (Bruce Willis) picks up in Pulp Fiction? I know that the Bride found a sword in Budd's trailer, but it had an inscription from Bill, and I was under the impression that all Hanzo swords had the little lion on them. Just a thought, but damn, I like that idea.

Budd didn't pawn his sword.

Yeah, that's what we were arguing about. Why would he tell Bill and Elle that he pawned it, if he in fact kept it? I dunno, just a idea we had that seemed pretty cool. I know Tarantino likes to throw in little references to his other films, I'm just guilty of over-enthusiastic wishful thinking, I guess.

KB2 was good. Not as stylish as the first "volume", but a good wrap up, nontheless. Glad Tarintino didn't try to out-do the House of Blue Leaves sequence.

But if I hear him talking "Dollars trilogy" one more time, I'm gonna fucking hurl.

- Fixxxer

I liked V2 but not as much as V1 - a few inconsistencies IMHO - Budd is a highly paid assassin but he's now a bouncer/janitor in a Barstow strip joint, all the while owning a priceless sword? And just saying 'oh, he became a drunk' doesn't adequately explain it. And The Bride is also highly paid but goes to work in El Paso in a record store? If you want to disappear and raise your child, why not own one? And 'to hide from Bill' doesn't work - she knew he'd find her. And the 'black mamba in the cash' trick was cool but I doubt Elle would get down on her hands and knees and clean up the cash with the mamba still slithering around.

But these are minor. The Pei Mei scenes were great.

Did anyone catch the movie poster in Budd's trailer? Bronson in Mr. Majestyk.

"Yeah, that's what we were arguing about. Why would he tell Bill and Elle that he pawned it, if he in fact kept it?"

To annoy and piss them off.

I have a sneaking suspicion that Bud & Elle used to be an item, she left him for Bill. Little cues like how he treats her, how Bill & him 'get along,' etc. Why he calls her instead of Bill to sell the sword and basically brag....

1) He was in self imposed exile. If it wasn't clear before you saw the sword, it certainly was after.

2) She was in self imposed exile. (this is a theme throughout Tarantino's work) She did it for different reasons than Budd... it wasn't disillusionment, but to protect her baby. Like Budd, it made it more interesting and "romantic" that she had chosen such a dull life. And of course, in QT's hands, it made it funnier too.

3) She put it in the case, one assumes she knows how to handle it.

Chew, good idea, but they are in two separate Universes. Tarntino has stated that Kill Bill (and From Dusk Till Dawn) are a part of the Movie Movie universe. Basically they are the films the characters in Pulp and Res Dogs would go see.

So, sorry it can't be the same sword. But very cool idea.

Jackie Brwon is also separate. It is in the Elmore Leanard Universe.

Here is the article which goes into it:

http://www.aintitcool.com/display.cgi?id=9830

By the way, cool name.

Then why the ad for Red Apple cigarettes in Kill Bill Vol. 2?

blatant product placement in the movie within a movieverse!?

One of the things I found very amusing was the initial cast credit sequence after the movie where they show the characters in little clips. They went through the folks from Vol. 1 then got to Vol. 2. When they finally got around to showing David Carradine as Bill, the only bit they showed of him was him lying dead on the ground. For some reason I just found that to be very funny. Pretty cool stuff.

The movie was great and I thoroughly enjoyed myself, as did my mom and my girlfriend. I really need to see it again and I don't think I'm ever going to even try to decide which one I enjoyed more, vol. 1 or vol. 2.

The two films just felt so different, so it's hard for me to imagine them being one big long movie. They don't seem to fit together very well, but the shift in tone might as well be built in. I mean, look at From Dusk Till Dawn. That's almost two movies wrapped up into one. So it's all good.

The only thing that really connected vol. 2 to vol. 1 for me was when Beatrix saw Elle Driver drive up to Bud's place and the "psycho bride i'm gonna kick some ass" music played. Sorry I can't think of the name of the track, but I bet you know what I mean. In that moment the movies felt like 2 parts of a whole.

I loved it and I really want to see it again, but I'll probably try to find time to check out The Punisher first.

If you guys didn't mention that thing about the "silly rabbit, trix are for kids" line I don't know if I would have picked up on that on my own. Is there any deeper meaning to that, or was it just a little in joke between 2 friends? I'm looking forward to watching vol. 1 again to see if anything else sticks out.

I loved Carradine as Bill and i don't think I can picture anyone else in the role.

Ok, that's it for now.

I loved the fact that the four year old daughter watches Shogun Assasin.