NBA Playoffs 2004 - Page 4

First to break 60 wins? Yeeesh, 4:20 left and it's 59-59.

You gotta be kidding me.... Their defenses aren't all THAT good...

My Pacers have finally been put out of their misery. Go Pistons, I guess.

Hmm, first I should say I'm not as much a Laker-hater as a Kobe/Shaq hater. Shaq's game is one of the reasons I don't watch as much NBA basketball anymore, if it wasn't for following the careers of guys I've watched through college (which is fewer and fewer these days. Shaq is all about push you out of the way and shoot get a foul and be fat and lazy. Kobe is just an asshole, he comes off smug and egotistical, oh and I thought that before we found out he's a rapist (allegedly). I hated Jordan for all the same reasons, see: whining to refs, being a jackass, playing when they want to, putting themselves above the team, too much streetball one-on-one bullshit. I don't have a problem with the rest of the team, but I think Kobe is a bitch and Shaq is fat overrated asshole.

Shaq is a talentless hack who relys on brute force and not talent. I don't care what you say the man if he was 50lbs lighter and 3" shorter would be second-tier at best.

Everything Xtian just mentioned. I live in SoCal and grew up loving the Showtime Lakers. I've been disgusted not only with the team but the organization since Shaq showed up. Jerry West leaving didn't help either. Despite giving up on the Lake show I was deeply saddened when Chick Hearn died. One of the best play by play guys ever just a legend. A true Laker that I miss when I tune in to a game these days.

All that said:

THEY'RE IN THE DAMN NBA FINALS.

Again. For the fourth time in five years. Until O'neal showed up, LA had not been to the finals since 1991, not winning since 1988.

Yeesh. This pistons/pacers series has been one of the worst series I have seen in a long time. The excuse of defensive powerhouses does not apply. The real reason is that their is no offense in the east. Rip Hamilton is looking like Dr. J because compared to everyone else on the court, HE IS.

Ron Artest is a great defender, but he is not an offensive player. That botched dunk he attempted on Ben Wallace in the closing minutes of the 4th is sort of the clip I have playing in my head as I type that.

Anyway, I have to defend shaq here. Shaq is without a doubt the most dominant force to be in this league since Wilt. Kareem Abdul Jabbar was in a league of his own and I don't even group him with the Russels, Chamberlains, and Shaqs (yes I put shaq in that category). Shaq is bigger then eeveryone. So he plays a position post up game. He gets his position by overpowering the defender. He is not running them over contrary to popular belief. if he was doing that, he would be no different from a Oliver Miller. Shaq scores with his feet, he gets position with his body, but the spins and footwork that he does looks so easy, but for a man his size its very extraordinary.

Granted, as he got older he has gotten lazier. But when he wants to turn it on, he can still play 48 minutes without bowling over people and beating them with his power moves and finesse finishes. That is why Shaq is one of the best ever.


As Far as Kobe. I have been a Kobe critic since he came into the league. i thought he shot too much and made stupid decisions on the court. But Jerry West saw something we all didn't (why am i not surprised, Jerry LA misses you). If kobe's court case goes well, Kobe will officially be the successor to Jordan's vacated throne. Before everyone starts fuming, just take a second to think about it. It is very obvious kobe models EVERY ASPECT of his game on Jordan if you watch him play. His fadeaway, his defensive style, his slashes to the rim, etc. He wants to be Jordan so bad, and this year I think he took a leap towards becoming the successor. He can create a shot whenever he wants, and he epitomizes the phrase "you can't stop him, you can only hope to contain him"

Let the argument commence!

Without a doubt Shaq is a dominant force. However like Jordan that force has been nurtured by the league office. What I mean is that he gets special treatment by the league and the refs. Now hold on and hear me out. Remember when Jordan complained about the Knicks and Derek Harper's 2 thieving hands that tormented the Bulls way back when? Probably don't but it was called hand checking and Phil Jackson and Jordan moaned long and hard about it during those eastern conference finals. Next year the league created the no hand checking rule effectively making it easier for the Bulls.

Similar thing happened with Shaq and the two elbows the defender used to keep him off the block. Shaq dominated the game anyways but still complained and Jackson of course moaned loudest. Why would they you ask? Well it goes back to Shaq being lazy. Why work hard when you can go 50% and still look good? Thus they changed the rule to one elbow and from then on these Laker teams have been winning. Centers left and right fouling out (remember those Portland and Jazz games where they used to make the Lakers look silly? Remember Shaq getting jacked by Ostertag that year before they beat Indiana?) and of course Shaq quickly shut up.

I won't even get into hack a shaq. Portland ran that into the ground and the league again took action. Tailoring the game once again to one of its key superstars.

Then a few years ago something happened. This I believe was around the time the Lakers beat the 6ers for their 2nd title. The league instituted the zone defense. Immediately Shaq and Jackson complained loudly. Shaq's memorable quote " What is this college? " coming to mind. The zone was something another coach Don Nelson of all people were campaigning heavily for.

There is a whole lot more and its sad that a game is tailored to superstars but it happens in the NBA. Not in baseball thus Bonds and his walks still continue. The NBA finals and playoff ratings have been abysmal since Jordan hit that game winning shot off Bryon Russell and killing the Utah Jazz's second bid for a title.

The game's ratings continue to drop and many have speculated on the reasons. Thug'ed out players wearing tattoo after tattoo that supposedly few people can relate to. The I player the Jordan clones that do nothing to help their teams win (Stackhouse, Marbury and you could argue Iverson) and continually ask for the damn ball so they can shoot the lights out. High ticket prices that no real middle class family man can afford. Too many I players that have ruined real team cohesive basketball. Poor fundamentals ie players that can shoot but not pass. Influx of high schoolers (which obviously affects fundamental play Duncan and Grant Hill stayed for 4 years in college and are sound players on both ends of the court) and foreign players (who again are fundamentally sound but lack defensive intensity usually).

Who has been Shaq's nemesis? While Wilt had Russell and Kareem had Wilt, Walton and Parish who does Shaq have? Hakeem? Well Hakeem schooled Shaq in 95 but Hakeem was only healthy for a season or 2 after that. Ewing? Ha Ewing is practically handicapped with those knees and never ever gave Shaq a problem other than Ewings jumpshot. David Robinson? Well David had a few healthy years but that was it (see Hakeem). Much like a good action film must have a good villain to succeed so should a good center. Shaq dominates the way he does because the center position in basketball is effectively dead. The best defenders at the position are Theo Ratliff (a solid player but painfully underweight) and Ben Wallace who is nothing more than a power forward masquarading as a center.

The days of the 6ers (with Dr J), Celtics (with Bird, McHale, Parish), Lakers (Kareem, Worthy, Magic), Pistons (Thomas, Laimbeer, Dumars), Bulls (Jordan, Pippen) and team basketball are over. The Bulls in my opinion are the main reason why basketball is the way it is. Watching Jordan shoot the lights out for 2 quarters a game (1st and 4th) and having his teammates just keep it close for the other 2 cultivated the I players.

They won 6 titles so thats that. Well thats the scoreboard yes but what was the end result? Van Helsing makes over 100 million and Shrek 2 will make over 350 million domestically so thats successful? Winning is winning. Good basketball is good basketball too. What was the end result of Jordan being marketed so heavily and being the lead spokesman for 8 different brand names? The result is a kid like Lebron getting a 90 million shoe contract before he proved anything on an NBA court. The NBA has more problems than Shaq and the Lakers. The eastern conference with playoff seeds 5 to 8 barely over 500 and making the playoffs are but another glaring problem. The list goes on and on.

The real scoreboard is this.

America's most watched sports.

80-1997
NFL
NBA
MLB
NHL
97-2004
NFL
MLB
NBA
NHL (Ratings have dipped by over half since 94 and the league is on the verge of financial meltdown.)

I have a hard time believing MLB was behind the NBA for the majority of the 18 years between 1980-1997, even with the mass exodus after '94.

And if you want to know what's really hurting ratings, that's real easy. Just look at Stern, and how he's moved the entire damn sport to cable. You'd be surprised how easily free combats every arguement you've laid out.

Makes sense to me. Yeah NBA probably didn't have baseball beat those first few years of the 80's. However it was the fastest growing sport in the 80's. By the time Jordan was winning titles though they had MLB's number. Not positive about that but if memory serves throughout the 90's up until the summer (McGwire/Sosa) MLB was losing big time in the ratings.

However my argument wasn't just about the playoffs and the regular season it was about the NBA finals. Those games are shown on regular tv and have been declining for years as said since Jordan's last appearance.

I'm pretty sure MLB ratings started to plummet only after the '94 lockout. Hell, the sport was strong in Montreal and Kansas City back then, let alone everywhere else.

Anyway, theres lots of reasons for lower ratings as you've said, the style of play though? Seriously, the people that complain about that are the ones that are actually watching the damn games.

I'm sure the product is hurt by the perceived "thug" image, while moving the games to cable certainly didn't help, what about the overall mediocrity of the big markets teams (David Stern must be on cloud nine with a Detroit v. LA NBA Finals)?

In the end, perhaps it's the lack of parity in the NBA that's finally catching up with it.

Great Post Daywalker. I agree about the NBA nurturing Jordan's career by bending to his every whim. With that said, I do not think Shaq has that kind of pull. Sure the elbow thing was instituted but the one thing that does sort of go against what you said was the institution of the zone defense.

It was clear that the reason the zone was implemented was as an anti shaq device. I never understood why they would do that when its clear the lakers are the biggest draw in the NBA. Either way, I don't think Shaq gets special treatment by the NBA, not as much as Jordan did thats for sure.

As far as the league. Honestly, the season is too damn long. I can't watch close to 82 games let alone maintain interest in the whole season. I get interested in early november and then it wanes around february march, and I really don't get back into it till the end of the season. Right now, the league's biggest problem is the entier eastern conference and its lack of scoring and winning. Having 2-3 teams with losing records in the playoffs is atravesty and should never have happened. Hopefully free agency will beef up the east because that everything east of the mississipi is just atrocious.

The NBA needs to do something with their talent pool because its becoming very diluted and the quality of play is really suffering.

Thus why I brought it up was out of fairness. Indeed the league turned on Shaq with the zone. I do not feel he does have that same pull as Mike I agree. However you underestimate the zen master. Something no one should ever do. The man has a way of getting his way as i'm sure you know.

As far as the season being too long. Well I don't know honestly. Cutting it by a month might work. It'd probably help with overall play thats for sure. Seems like none of the players today care or give it their all the way they use to thats for sure. Case in point the Lake show. I've watched these guys coast along and then turn it on late. Its worked generally. Didn't work last year with the Spurs though.

Hrmmm, so does anybody care about this series? I mean, I figured the Lakers won the championship after they passed the one team (San Antonio) that could beat them.

But then, I remembered the offseason, and how sure I was that the Lakers wouldn't win it... strictly because they signed Karl Malone. Sure it's silly, it's irrational, but for some reason I keep coming back to it. So I figure, this nagging doubt must be there for a reason, it's not like Karl Malone or Gary Payton are even shells of their former selves anymore. So why not talk myself into thinking this series will actually go another way, it's the last basketball we'll be seeing for a while.

It'll be interesting but honestly the only match-up I am interested in seeing is Rip vs. Kobe. If you don't know these two go back to high school plying against each other and Kobe LOVES keeping Rip from scoring. So are we gonna see what Kobe is totally capable on defense? I sure like to see what the man can do.

So Kobe doesn't love stopping other people from scoring?

If anyone can help me find the basketball ratings for the past thirty years it would be apprecaited, but in 1980, baseball got a 32.8 rating and a 56 share. In 1990, MLB got a 20.8 rating and a 36 share.

To check all baseball ratings from the last 40 years

I cannot find the NBA Finals Ratings.

There are always time when you up your "game" even more. Kobe happens to up it when facing off against a former high school buddy. And after last night....it sure does look like he likes stopping Rip more than others. You probably can't have the D he had every night but I like seeing him with 4 steals and a couple blocks like he did. So sure he likes stopping people from scoring, but then there are times he likes stopping people MORE.

I just have to wonder if that took more from his offense.

Having to gaurd a guy like Rip all game is bound to take away from your offense, perhaps we'll start seeing Kobe and Rush on the court more often? Who do the Lakers have to match up against a 2 other than Kobe?

Ready to hammer me with the real data eh? Hope you do find the info because i'd certainly like to know the facts.