The NL East

the title of this thread should be: "The NL Least."

Already pulled out that one in the co-opted NL Central thread.

Funny you should say that when it's the division with the World Series champs, hell, the last 3 National League World Series champs even. When was the last time a team from the National League Central or West even won the World Series? 1990?

The Mets are still in contention. thankyou, other mediocre teams in the NL east.

I know there is at least ONE Philly fan here, so here goes... have you guys been happy with the Eric Milton trade? I mean, I really didn't focus on it all that much, and didn't notice the Twins got Silva in the deal. All of which came up in a recent article on The Hardball Times.


Couple that with the fact that Milton is a FA after this season, and Silva's locked up for a bit longer... it's not looking all that good from here.

Give me a full season with Carlos Silva then come back and tell us how great the deal was. Plus, the way the Twins are playing at the moment Silva could go 22-8 and they will still not make the playoffs.

Finally, I would not call the NL East the NL Least because when it comes down to it the Cubs have an average offense, the Cardinals do not have enough pitching, the Astros do not have a team with heart enough to win a freakin' playoff game, and the Reds do not have enough pitching. I like the Cubs more then the other teams in that division.

At the trading deadline, there are no big pitchers out there that can create an impact. Johnson will not get traded, so if people are pinning their hopes on Freddy Garcia then they are really in trouble.

Back to the Phillies, I will be watching them tonight. I am hoping they can shut out Griffey for three more days, but with the short porch in right-center I doubt he will go three games without putting one out. The Phils seem to be in one of their offensive hot streaks that can win games for them for a week or two. It would be nice if the pitching can match the offense.

Should you be surprised by the fact that Milton's winning all of his games? He gets 7.7 RPG (or there about), I shudder to think about how poorly he'd need to pitch in order to lose more often than not.

I think my big thing is, it's like the A's or the Braves... Not only do they know the talent in their own systems absurdly well, they know the talent on other teams as well. The Braves lose Lopez and Sheffield, replace em with Drew and Estrada and they don't miss a beat.

The Twins see a guy like Silva, and see something the Phillies don't. I find that interesting, especially as a Mets fan, because the team I follow has been seemingly fleeced by every team they've dealt with in recent memory.

You are overstating the Braves and their eye for talent. Everyone in Philadelphia (and the league for that matter) knew that Estrada was going to be very good. A lot of people in Philadelphia knew they were giving up a lot with Estrada's upside, but with Lieby hitting .320 the year before they thought that the risks were worth the reward. Estrada was not some diamond in the rough, but the top positional prospect in the Phillies farm system. Every single team wanted Estrada.

Drew, on the other hand, is overpriced for what he provides. He is a streaky hitter with a history of injuries. He is a career .280 hitter with below average power. This year he is getting more jacks, but it does not mean he can continue this pace the entire year, especially with his history. He is making $4.2 Million this year in the last year of his contract, and if you are going to get a .275 average with 20 jacks and 60 RBI's, then I really do not see him worth the money.

The A's do have a pretty good eye for talent, but I would not say that they are better then say the Red Sox, who picked up Ortiz, Mueller, and Millar last year when nobody wanted anything to do with them. This year they have Reece, who has been amazing at short, and Bellhorn, who K's a lot but has been a pretty damn good fill in at second.

Minnesota got Silva, and I would have to say that they saw something people in Philly did not see because Silva was a marginal relief pitcher at best. Milton does have a high ERA, around 4.00 lifetime, which is a concern. But he has a knack for winning games, which he has done his entire career. He wins and that is what matters.

Hey man, I give Drew more credit than that. The guy-if healthy-should be capable of 25+ per season. This season is not an anamoly, the guy is pretty much on pace to reproduce the numbers he's put up during the seasons he's actually been somewhat healthy.

How many HR's would he have hit last year had he had 500+ AB's? How about 2001? 2000? He may not steal bases anymore, but a .400 OBP and a .500 SLG isn't something out of left field for this guy.

Not worth $4.25? Perhaps given his fragile frame, but he's certainly talented enough to warrant the expenditure.

And seriously, what's with the focus on RBIs and WINs? Both require so many variables that have nothing to do with the player in question that their value as a statistic is vastly overblown.

Now, to focus on the A's evaluation of talent requires me to look far too deeply into something that's of little interest to me at the moment, but I do remember them getting Jason Ishringhausen from the Mets *sigh* for Billy freaking Taylor... and if that wasn't enough, they got money from the Mets for Art Howe... I don't remember them giving up much for Jermaine Dye or Johnny Damon either, but perhaps I'm mistaken?

Anywho, the reason I'm far more impressed by the moves pulled off by the A's, is because they're doing it with a $45 million payroll, not one that's floating around what? $140 million?

But he did not play all year. He will not play all year this year. If he does? More power to him. That is the risk that the Braves took trading for him. He will be worth 4.2 million + some (though it is his contract year).

I agree, but I feel RBIs is a stat that gets shortchanged by the sabermetrics fanboys. If you wanna talk about runs produced or other Bill James stuff, it still does not change the fact that Eric Milton, throughout his career, finds ways to win. I understand that the stat is arbitrary. He walks a lot of people, he gives up hits, and he gives up home runs, but he also goes deep into games and throws a lot of pitches. Both are very valuable to a team, especially a team that is having bullpen problems with Billy Wagner out.

No, you are not. Johnny Damon and Jermaine Dye were talents that everyone knew about. They were not diamonds in the rough, but guys that every team in the majors wanted to get. The fact that Beane was able to sell marginal players for them is not really saying that the A's have an eye for talent. He deliberately sold them guys that he knew were crap. Ishringhausen, by your own logic, became great at doing something that is overrated. The save is not very important, statistically, and financially overpriced (like the RBI and the win). Plus, Issy has not had a great career since he has left Oakland, though he has been injured. He had a good first year but dropped off. They deserve credit for Hudson, Hattyburg (though, he was known in Boston to swing a sweet bat), and MAYBE Zito (though I remember Zito being high on a lot of draft lists, maybe not as high as #9 but at least first round). Mulder was the top pitcher in the 2001 draft, so I will not place him with the others.

About Drew: All I was pointing out was that he was more than a ".280 hitter with below average power." Apparently we agree on that now, and about his injury prone nature.

About WINs: What does a win total tell you about Russ Ortiz last season, was he any better than say a Mark Prior or a Jason Schmidt? It just urks me when I see things like "He wins and that is what matters." I'm not saying it's an entirely useless statistic, but if you want to say Eric Milton eats innings, why not just post his numbers?

About the A's: See, you can't have it both ways, either the A's have a good eye for talent, or they don't. How did they know they were trading mediocre talent, while the Royals did not? Or better put, how did they get away with getting what they did for what they offered? Couldn't the Royals have gotten more for Damon and Dye with everyone knowing how great they were?

I really am curious about todays Marlins game, I have yet to see Burnett pitch this season, and he's been pounded early. His recovery from arm surgery will go a long way into determining the winner of this division.

The thing is, you cannot just say IF HE IS HEALTHY he will hit .280 with 30 jacks. You have to project that he will play only 120 games a season because of his past. This year it looks like he will surpass his power numbers of previous years, but he breaks down every year and you cannot assume he will play 162 games in a given season with his track record. If it was A-Rod, you can project 162 games. If its Piazza, you know he will only play 140 because he is a catcher (until this year). You have to take into account his injuries because he does not always play the full season.

Milton's Innings Pitched:
1998: 172
1999: 206
2000: 200
2001: 220
2002: 171
2003: 17
2004: 72.1

Not too bad. You can probably project right about 200 innings from Milton. He was injured in 2003, but it does not look like he has a history of injuries. He probably had a DL Stint in 2002, which cut down 3 to 4 starts from his season.

I am not saying Ortiz is better then Prior or Schmidt, which is a crazy argument. Russ Ortiz has been a pretty good pitcher for 4 or 5 years. Last year he just got some breaks and won 21 games. He also does not win many games, since he averaged 13 to 18 on San Fran before his breakout year last year. His stats are better then you are given him credit for. It looks like he pitches himself into a lot of jams but can get himself out of them.

Yes, they could have gotten more. The A's should know who the marginal players they have that are in their farm system. You can have it both ways, though. At the trading deadline, getting 3 prospects in return for a player is never a sure thing. Plus, the A's got Jermaine Dye who has been an injury problem with a huge salary. He has just started playing to his potential, two years after the trade. That is not what they got him for.

But to compare this situation with the Phillies and the Milton-Silva trade is lacking also, because the Phillies have one of the deepest farm systems with top pitching prospects. They are loaded from AAA down to Rookie League, and a guy like Silva was not going to be in the rotation even if he was here this year (Madsen would have been).

Maybe you could say that the Phillies should have known that Silva would have fared better as a starter. Looking at his stats, his ERA is at 4.00 but his BAA is over .300, and his WHIP is really high. His 7 wins are also misleading. He could easily be 4-4 like Milton.

The thing is, Burnett was a very good pitcher before surgury but not an Ace. He has always been VERY wild, but has had the stuff to be a #1 starter if he could control it. He had a really good year in 2002, before his Tommy John in 2003. If he can get back to that level, then the Marlins look like they will be tough. But they are tough already with the way Willis is pitching and if Beckett can get back to early season form when he gets off the DL.

What is with the weather in Philly this past week. Can you get clear night any time soon???

Anybody have an opinion on the Benitez Koch duo in Florida? I know there's a few White Sox fans here, any opinion as to why he's been so bad for you guys?

I figure Koch's arm is still intact, giving them a couple of guys that can really light up the guns... but when September and October roll around, I'm really anxious to see how they'll respond.

Both Koch and Benitez are not known for their performances under pressure. I say it really is not a bad move by the Fins, since every team could use some more arms in the pen, but they are not the guys I would trust to win a World Series for me.

Phils in first now by a percentage point, I think it is.

Was at the game today. Place exploded when Thome hit the second HR. It's like everyone was expecting it.

Note to self: wear sunblock next time.

How'd you like the place? i didnt like it too much, but I probably have to go again to get a full feel for the place.

Thome was the best thing this franchise has done since Pete Rose. The guy is going to hit more HRs than Schmidt and he puts ass in the seats.

I just hope that their pitching can hold up until Wolf and Padilla come back.

Well, i've been to almost every Sunday game so far (missed a few due to weather/things coming up) and it's just an awesome facility. The food is terrific, the view is terrific. Nobody who has been there can say anything bad about it, i'd guess.

The food is awesome. Tony Luc's in Center field??? Just inspired. The thing I find so bad about the park is probably because I have been to PNC in Pittsburgh and Camden Yards in Baltimore, and I feel that the park just lacks a certain uniquenesss. It pretty much takes the best things from every new/old park and puts them in Philly. Ashburn Alley is pretty nice, though.

Yeah. I only watched a couple of innings today, but I suppose that they should play Rickie Ledee out in center. He has proven that he can do better then Byrd and Glanville this year.

Do you think the Phils will make a move before the break? I could see them getting another reliever. It would be nice to see them get a center fielder since Byrd sucks at the moment (if Ledee does not step up).

What do you think their major holes are/places they can improve?

Does manager count?

Again, I do not fault Bowa for the problems of our team. Plus, dropping the manager at this point is like calling it quits. McKeon worked last year, but that usually is not the result of dumping your coach mid-season.

I blame their piss poor job at knocking in men on base. I blame the players, not Bowa.

Today's news: Padilla out indefinitely with sore arm. Time to start looking at an arm by July 31st, eh?

Don't suppose the Phils will want John Thompson? If the deal needs a helping hand I'll happily swim the Atlantic and then drive him to Philly myself.

No, I think you keeping him will help our chances, regardless of injury.

Seriously, say it with me now, the Phillies just aren't all that great. If you listened to the hype, the Phillies were going to run away with this division, like they were the year before when the Braves lost Tom Glavine and Kevin Millwood.

The Mets are right where they're supposed to be (they're a .500 team), as are the Phillies and the Marlins. All is certainly right with the world.

The Phillies have their best arm hurt, and Padilla is out for two more weeks. Even with Abbott and the other shmuck pitching, they have been doing pretty well. Kevin Millwood has pitched well in every inning but ONE every single game, giving up a 5 or 6 spot. It sucks to watch Millwood every game knowing he is going to blow it.

When Wolf comes back, I think the Phillies will start to play to their potential. I hope.

To give credit to the Mets, they have been great this year. Their pitching has stepped up big time, but it is still early. Piazza has carried a huge weight on his shoulders. The Mets are a team that will stick around in the race.

I'm not all that surprised by the Mets because they're supposed to be a .500 team. Sure, they're doing it in a way I didn't expect, but that's Baseball. I don't expect Glavine, Leiter and Trachsel to be in the NL Cy Young race come September. I expect Matsui to be better than he has been, I expect Cameron to be better than a .220 hitter when all is said and done, and I expect David Wright and Jose Reyes to be in the lineup come September.

Lastly I wouldn't be surprised if they pick up a young power arm (read: Freddy Garcia). Yeah, I know he does have his detractors, but the Mets desperately need a quality starter that's under the age of 35.

And I don't think the Phillies are this "bad," just that they're not the team people were picking to win the National League Pennant. A team can only "underachieve" for so long before people have to finally concede that they're just not that good.

Mind you, I have no ill will towards the Phillies, it's just bugged me that so many "experts" overrated them before the season started. The only team in the NL East I legitimately hold any negative feelings towards are the Atlanta Braves, so you can imagine how happy I am to see them in fourth.

I hate the Braves. I am not fond of the Mets, to be honest, but the Braves are the worst. I really do not think they would be so bad, though, if the did not have those terrible announcers on TBS. They are so arrogant and know nothing about the game. Plus, the Braves kick our ass every season.


I really do not see Glavine or Trachsel falling off. I think Trachsel is a great pitcher, and people that have not looked at his stats over the last three years should. He is probably the most underrated pitcher in MLB.

The Phillies have underacheived and have underacheived all year. But they have serious holes in their lineup and their starting pitching, though good, has nobody dominant. But their flaws, in my opinion, are smaller than the flaws of the Mets and Fish. The Phillies are not a perfect team, but there is no perfect team. All the experts picked the Phillies because the Fish lost a lot and nobody thought the Mets could rebound as fast as they did. I thought the Mets would win 78 games (and I still may be right), because I assumed that Glavine was better then he showed last year and Trachsel is really good. Leiter was a wild card and he has turned out okay. Seo was good last year and I thought he could win 12 games. Their bullpen I thought would not be great, but Looper is pretty good and had a good season the year before. Reyes only played 30 games or so last year so I did not know how he would react to what would be his rookie season. Matsui I thought would be better, but everyone did. The hope was that Floyd would keep his injuries down to a minimum this year. Florida lost Pudge, Penny, and Lee, and gained Choi, Burnett, and Benitez. Nobody thought Benitez would return to form, and he will be their achillies heal when it comes down the stretch (you should know that as well as anyone).

The Phillies blew 18 saves last year, I believe, and still won 86 games. With the addition of Worrell and Wagner you had to assume would make them the favorite. They are the same team as they were last year with a better Burrell, with Thome hitting like he can hit, they should be the favorite. Leiberthal has sucked, so has Byrd and Polonco, which really has taken any batting for average out of their lineup. Lieby has turned it around, but I really do not know about the other two.

The experts picked the Phils because they were the only team to have gained much more then the other teams in the division.

There's a difference between division and league man (which is what they were being picked to win), and the Marlins didn't lose Penny, they lost Redman... BIG difference, since Burnett is an upgrade over Redman. Urbina for Benitez was at worst a wash, so the only real losses came from Pudge and Lee... and if Choi keeps it up, the only thing they'll be missing is a bat at catcher.

I can understand the Phillies being picked to win the division, the league on the otherhand was a bit much. Especially when people started to say that the Phillies had the deepest rotation in MLB.

Have you seen a game covered by WGN lately? Terrible announcers, and as for bias, well "partisan" doesn't do it justice.

Some ESPN people did, but it was primarily the Cubs and Astros. To say that the Phillies were not one of the favorites in the National League to make the World Series would not be being honest. They were chosen on several lists, but I doubt in the numbers the Cubs and the Astros were.

You have to expect a little bit of bias when listening to a home team broadcast, but what the TBS guys portray is just hideous. I have only seen a couple games on WGN (I have MLB Extra Innings so if the Cubs are playing a lot of times it is not a WGN broadcast). The Red Sox announcers (Jerry Remmy and that other guy) are the worst when it comes to Bias, except maybe the announcers on YES.

The Phillies cannot lose 2 out of 3 to the expos.

With that, Jim Thome is on a tear right now. I would not throw him anything near the strike zone. Especially with Burrell falling off a bit. It is nice to see Lieby hitting a bit, though. He has to come around if the Phillies are going to make a run at the playoffs.

Didn't see the game, but A.J. Burnett pitching a CG today was nice to see.

This is an increasing problem, in my opinion, and frankly.....it sucks. YES is a good example. When you broadcast Yankee games on a network entirely devoted to the Yankees, objective analysis goes straight out the window. Last year, Steinbrenner specifically ordered that YES cameras not show Don Zimmer in the dugout, as the two were not getting along.

Good article in the NY Daily News today about this subject: Daily News



68 games, I believe. And frankly, 68 of the most exciting games I've ever seen. Reyes just brings a different aura to the club. Great to see him back in action (though, unfortunately, in the wrong position....MOVE YOUR ASS KAZ!!!).

Eric Milton just finds ways to win! Even when he gives up 7 ER in 5 IP!

Well, the Phillies seem to have gotten their groove back, while the Mets are coming off one of their best weeks of the season. I like where this team is going, and if they put up a strong effort this week, I can imagine Duquette going after a Benson to fill out our rotation. But first things first, there's a four game series against the Phillies that will either put the Mets back in their place, or have them smelling like roses.

Time for Glavine, Leiter and Trachsel to bring out their A games.

Jesus, Hidalgo's been an absolute monster since the trade. So far that's what? 8HRs in 16 games as a Met?