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Prescription for the Lakers

post #1 of 22
6/16/04 at 6:59pm
Thread Starter 
I am still fuming from what the Lakers put up in the Finals. Right now, I am seriously doubting what Mitch Kupchak can do with this team. I miss Jerry West. But here are my thoughts on how to bring the Lakers back into Finals contention next year.

Coach: Pat Riley - Bring him back. I am over the triangle offense, and Phil doesn't handle young players well. Riles will bring back a defensive intensity and it would just be an awesome thing for the team. Granted, I appreciate what Phil has done the past 5 years, but its time for a change.

Kobe: If he wants to leave, Sign and trade period. You can not let the best player in the NBA leave with no compensation. Sign and trade for 2-3 high quality players. But I honestly don't want him to leave. He should retire a Laker.

Shaq: He was in better shape this year and he was allowed to dominate in the finals. He still has 3-4 good years left in him. I hope he stays angry and works his ass off this offseason. Someone like Pat Riley would work well with all these egos in LA.

Role Players/Bench: The lakers have not had any quality role players or a bench for the past 3 years. It was grossly obvious in the finals that Mitch Kupchak blew his load on old legs that couldnt last all the way through the season. I think besides resigning your stars and keeping them happy, the top priority should be get a bench. Get blue collar players who are willing to get dirty and fight for every loose ball, someone like stromile swift, pj brown, jamal maagliore, etc. The lakers have always lacked a good number 4 player and its about time they get one now.

I think that the Coach is going to be one of the most important pieces this off season. It sounds like Phil is going to retire and I think getting a replacement coach is very important. i really think that Pat Riley is the right choice. Mitch Kupchak better fucking get his act together.
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post #2 of 22
6/16/04 at 10:36pm

Re: Prescription for the Lakers

Quote:
Originally posted by Fazer
Shaq: He was in better shape this year and he was allowed to dominate in the finals.
Sorry Fazer. It must seem like i'm the Lakers greatest hater around here. I'm not but I am a huge critic of them. Tell me this how did Shaq dominate the finals when Ben Wallace had 10 offensive rebounds against him in game 5? How is it if Shaq was dominating that outside of game 4 he was only averaging 7 to 8 rebounds a game? How is that dominating? 7-2 330 plus and Detroit has a foul trouble Rasheed, 6-8 Ben Wallace, Okur, Campbell and Shaq was grabbing a measly 8 boards a game. How is that domination and how is he a great center averaging those numbers?

Finally some of the press out here in LA are starting to go after the guy. I couldn't be happier honestly. If you check the playoff thread you'll see another Laker fan CTD mention Shaq's laziness. This team quit on Phil Jackson. Not the other way around. It started from the top with Kobe and Shaq. I agree with all your other points especially Riley. Still Byron being hired would have guaranteed Kobe would have stayed a Laker. Actually Malone will solve those no. 4 questions if you guys can resign him. He seemed pretty loyal to the organization as well.
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post #3 of 22
6/17/04 at 3:32am
Thread Starter 
I mean shaq averaged 26 points and 10 boards during the finals. Ben Wallace was not outrebounding Shaq directly. Ben wallace is just an amazing rebounder who goes after the ball. But from what I saw, shaq when near a rebound grabbed it.

I am not saying he was the shaq of the threepeat era, I am just saying compared to last season's handling by San antonio Shaq was in much better physical shape.
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post #4 of 22
6/17/04 at 5:40am
Hmm possibly. 26 and 10 isn't exactly dominating though. Also Shaq only had 4 blocks total during the Finals. Guess Kobe and Karl didn't return to LA with the team. Wonder if they hanged with one another to their respective locations?
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post #5 of 22
6/17/04 at 10:48am

Re: Prescription for the Lakers

Quote:
Originally posted by Fazer
Coach: Pat Riley - Bring him back. I am over the triangle offense, and Phil doesn't handle young players well. Riles will bring back a defensive intensity and it would just be an awesome thing for the team. Granted, I appreciate what Phil has done the past 5 years, but its time for a change.
As long as you understand that the triangle offense had nothing to do with Gary Payton being trash, that you can only play good defense with the proper talent, and that coaches like Pat Riley, Phil Jackson, and Larry Brown could care less about young players... then okie dokie.

Note, I'm not saying that hiring Pat Riley wouldn't be a good idea, merely that coaching wasn't the issue this season.
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post #6 of 22
6/17/04 at 8:35pm
Thread Starter 
I agree coaching wasn't the major fault this year. Although I think Phil lost control over the team as the playoffs went on. I think Kobe has outgrown the triangle and Phil and I don't see them together next year.

I also believe that the triangle was never suited for GP. He needs the ball in his hands. WHen he was allowed to create on his own and drive and handle the ball the team played well along side Gary's own production increasing. If he stays under a new coach, I think Gary will do fine. Not to say he isnt slower and cant defend one on one now, he still has game, but he needs help from players who are willing to play as a team.
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post #7 of 22
6/17/04 at 9:50pm
Yep.

I guess Kobe lost all around 15 pounds during the playoffs. No excuse but makes sense on how he might have gotten a little less aggressive during the finals.
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post #8 of 22
6/17/04 at 10:06pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Fazer
I also believe that the triangle was never suited for GP. He needs the ball in his hands. WHen he was allowed to create on his own and drive and handle the ball the team played well along side Gary's own production increasing. If he stays under a new coach, I think Gary will do fine. Not to say he isnt slower and cant defend one on one now, he still has game, but he needs help from players who are willing to play as a team.
NBA championships won using triangle offense in the last 14 years-9. NBA championships won by Gary Payton-ZERO.

Maybe if Gary accepted the triangle offense and showed up in the Finals he might still be playing. What happened to listening to the coach? Lakers didn't and they lost. Pistons did and they won.

And Gary is the one who needs to learn how to play with a team, not getting players who will play together.

Lakers are done as a dominant team for a while. There is no fix. They can be a playoff team minus Phil and Kobe but the West is still strong and they all saw how to beat the Lakers.
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post #9 of 22
6/17/04 at 10:40pm
Thread Starter 
Sadly, I think the lakers will remain powerhouses if they actually make a blockbuster trade with Kobe for 2-3 stars from another team. I don't want to see Kobe go, but at the same time Kupchak and Buss's belief in never trading him could end up biting them in the ass if they get nothing. Also, they are offering 7 years for 140 million dollars...how are you going to pay other players!?

I do not want to see the same team again...we need new faces. Proven players who play roles and are good at them.
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post #10 of 22
6/17/04 at 10:58pm
When does Kobe's trial start and how long will it be?

I doubt OJ time but if this trial gets delayed or is close to when the training camp starts it might be tougher to trade him. And if I'm the team that wants Kobe chances are I want to keep the 2-3 stud players so I can win the championship.
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post #11 of 22
6/18/04 at 1:04am
So I guess I'm in the minority that thinks Gary Payton is trash. He got outplayed by every gaurd he faced, which is a difficult thing to do, especially when one of em is Darrick Martin.

Even if the Triangle fit him like an... ahem... glove, he'd still be trash. No amount of coaching is going to repair that.

If I ran the Lakers, I'd try and move Shaq. Look to dump salary (high contracts in their final year), and possibly pick up some draft picks while you're at it (how easily can draft picks be traded in the NBA anyway?). His knees will give way before this team is good again, while Kobe will still be in his prime.

Otherwise, if the Lakers keep em both, they'll simply tread water until Shaq's knees up and die on him.
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post #12 of 22
6/18/04 at 1:47am
I've always been a fan of Payton myself. Truthfully I bet it was a lot of factors that caused him to have a bad finals. First and foremost the offense running throught Shaq&Kobe and then the traingle and Phil's coaching moves. Possibly he was injured as well. Still the guy played horribly. I think he just didn't fit the Lakers. I really can't think of one bad season he played with Seattle. He looked good last year with Milwaukee too. A guy doesn't lose it overnight.

I'll tell ya guys like Rush (spot up jump shooter and nothing else), Horace Grant (I remember when this guy could actually play), Slava Medvapack (Another euro player who lacks intensity&power), Rick Fox (Once a solid scorer now just a defensive bruiser who gets injured) and Devan George just don't make up a strong bench or team. Bryon Russell also being wasted. I scratch my head at why the Lakers didn't trade or do something to help themselves. Guess they relied on their 2 superstar punch and 2 old HOF'ers.
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post #13 of 22
6/18/04 at 2:10am
since the players can't seem to get over their personal problems and ego clashes, I guess the best thing for the lakers is to try something new... but this team doesn't have to be done-- a few role players aside, the core talent and coaching is still top notch. I know in sports the mental barrier can be as daunting as the physical, but all these people saying the lakers are over and must reload need to take a step back and realize they were 3 wins away from another championship this year-- and over the last 5 years they have been unquestionably the best team in the NBA.

no one can predict how phil, shaq, and kobe would respond next year if they all came back. I'd still give them as good a chance as anybody to be there at the end. I am not saying those mental barriers, off-court problems, and negative attitudes wouldn't kill them-- but they've already proven they can win with them. I guess what I'm saying is most people are either overreacting or direct descendants of nostradamus. you guys may be right, but laker fans need to chill out and laker haters (of which I am one) need to stop frothing at the mouth.

again I am not trying to criticize anyone here, I am just saying I am tired of people only looking at what happened yesterday in sports-- and forgetting about the bigger picture.
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post #14 of 22
6/18/04 at 3:18am
Thread Starter 
Sporst radio in LA is all over the theory that Kupchak and Buss will give Kobe whatever he wants, even down to signing off on the coach, players, and contracts.

That is scary. On top of that, SHaq has gone on record saying he will not play for any other coach besides Phil. Granted SHaq's guarantees are as malleable as playdoh, but still its scary. All this Kobe trade talk scares me into thinking that if they give Kobe all the power, they may end up trading shaq, which would be a huge mistake. That man should retire as a Laker. I think he will come back stronger next season. We all know shaq plays his best when angry, and I can assure you he is pissed right now.
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post #15 of 22
6/18/04 at 3:56am
Michael Jordan also said he'd never play for any other coach besides Phil Jackson. Ahem.

Tailoring a team/coach around one guy is a bad idea. Remember who just beat them? A team without superstars who flat out played team basketball.
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post #16 of 22
6/18/04 at 5:20am
All solid points. I remember hearing Shaq was training his ass off last preseason and then watching him tell Kobe not to take so many shots and pass the ball and then Kobe telling him to watch his weight. Interesting to see what happens this preseason. Kupchak looked like he got ran over by a train yesterday though.
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post #17 of 22
6/18/04 at 1:27pm
Quote:
Originally posted by thechairmanofthebored
but all these people saying the lakers are over and must reload need to take a step back and realize they were 3 wins away from another championship this year-- and over the last 5 years they have been unquestionably the best team in the NBA.
Who says they've been "unquestionably" the best team in the NBA. How quickly we forget about the Spurs, eh? Anyway, the Lakers were supposed to lose to a better Blazers team during the first year of this run (down some 15 points with 5 minutes left), they were supposed to lose to a better Kings team a few years back. There were times it required miracles for them to win, which is why they play the games after all.

If you really think this teams going to get better, then fine, stick with the players you have. I just don't see it. Shaq's going to be a year older, Kobe's going to have an enormous contract, and you're going to be left with mere peanuts to form a supporting cast.

If Shaq were 25, I wouldn't move him, but he's 32 and already injury prone... Biting the bullet on the guy now would be the smartest thing the Lakers could do.
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post #18 of 22
6/18/04 at 2:23pm
last five years: Lakers 4 finals appearances and 3 rings- Spurs 1 and 1... sooo that's how I came to that conclusion.

here's my point-- how long ago was it that the Lakers were in the finals and picked by most experts to win? um, 2 weeks ago?

so unless you can establish that this team isn't hungry anymore, that this defeat was absolutely crippling to them as a unit, or that their egos and off court problems are raging more out of control than ever before (which you can't, because all of that is speculation) then you cannot proclaim a team that two weeks ago was the favorite to win the finals is now no longer capable of being one of the best in the league. that's all I am addressing. the lakers could improve by making some big changes, if they were the right ones... and maybe they are too fractured to contend again with kobe, shaq, and phil all together. but we don't know that-- and I am tired of listening to sports fans who (to use a clumsy metaphor) only pay attention to the prevailing winds and never remember it was clear, calm, and sunny just a few hours ago.
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post #19 of 22
6/19/04 at 12:40am
I guess I just don't get how a team that hasn't won the title in two years can be considered "unquestionably" the best.

Perhaps I should make myself clear, I'm talking about winning championships, not staying competitive. Sure, the Lakers can make the playoffs and be moderately succesful for however long Shaq remains healthy... but did we all not just see a young Pistons team obliterate them?

If this team manages to keep both Kobe and Shaq, they wont have the resources to improve this team. In fact, it'll probably be worse next year due to the exodus of certain coaches and/or players.

So unless you think the Pistons got lucky when they ran through "unquestionably the best team in the NBA," I'd like to know how this same team will do any better in 05.
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post #20 of 22
6/19/04 at 5:32am
but that's what I'm saying-- any better than what? how many teams have won 4 championships in a row, or even 4 in 5 years? people seem to be coming at this from the perspective that if the lakers don't win every year, or more to the point didn't win this year, that they have some kind of insurmountable problem. yes, they have issues, and the championship series probably was indicative of that. but you don't dismantle a great team because you haven't won in two years. especially considering how talented many other team's rosters are and the fact that previous to those two years you won 3 championships in a row with the same core group.

of course, if you can improve the team you do it-- and there is room for improvement. or conversely, if the personal issues are deemed unfixable you can take it apart. my point is none of us know that, and most people seem to be basing their opinion on the fact that the lakers either blew one series or haven't won it all in two seasons-- hardly enough evidence to proclaim them dead. kobe is in his prime, shaq is still shaq, and phil has 9 rings in 14 years. that speaks for itself. a young pistons team did obliterate them-- good for them, they deserve their rings-- but it's still just one series.
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post #21 of 22
6/19/04 at 12:43pm
See, here's the thing. The Lakers are a win now team as currently constructed, there is no future for this team. Once Shaq's career ends-be it two years from now or due to injury-this team will be forced to rebuild anyway. So I take the perspective of, can this team win the title in that time without any big acquisitions? If not, getting something for Shaq starts the rebuilding process early, without having to deal with two more failed attempts at the title.
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post #22 of 22
6/19/04 at 3:34pm
Quote:
Originally posted by MoNkaholic
See, here's the thing. The Lakers are a win now team as currently constructed
well that was my only point-- people were overreacting by saying they were dead.

as for the rebuild scenario-- if they only had one good year left in them I think a lot of people would agree with you. but a team that could contend for 2-4 more years should not start a rebuilding process, they should try to win championships.

of course it's all academic now-- as phil has already stepped down and it appears either shaq or kobe will be gone.
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