Pitch Counts

I think it's over-babying, just for the fact alone that 30 years ago nobody really gave a fuck. I mean if Nolan Ryan can go on for years pitching full games, and probably going over 100 pitches basically every outing, I'm sure some of today's pitchers can if given the chance.

Not if they're not conditioned to do that.

This is the key, right here. Yes, pitching has evolved, but they were still throwing arm-deforming pitches in the 20s and 30s (like the screwball). But with the pressure we're putting on our 12 and 13-year olds in little league, up through high school and college and into the minors, kids are throwing more dangerous pitches earlier in their lives when their bodies haven't matured yet.

I'm firmly of the belief that pitch counts help some pitchers' careers, but are totally immaterial to other pitchers. Not everyone is built the same. Nolan Ryan was a freak of nature. So is Randy Johnson. But for every Nolan Ryan, there are dozens of David Clydes that never got the opportunity to show what they coud do because of injury.

I'll give you an example. We had a kid at our school who was a converted shortstop. He had absolutely filthy stuff.. fastball 90+ and a slider that was nasty. We thought his future in professional baseball was as a pitcher and the scouts loved him because he hadn't pitched a lot and he had a "fresh" arm.

Three years after he left our school, he's already had two elbow surgeries, including one Tommy John.

Fresh arm or not, pitching is not a natural motion and injuries, invariably, happen. I do think pitching coaches and GMs are more knowledgeable and careful than they have been in the past, but they do tend to baby their "prized prospects" quite a bit, only to have them go down with the same kinds of injuries they would have had had they not been on pitch counts in the first place.

I agree with Boomstick. Pitchers throw some REALLY stressful pitches these days. Sliders, splitters and cutters put a lot of strain on the elbow and shoulder, much more than just throwing straight changes and fastballs and standard curves. Guys used to throw fewer pitches and guys who threw junk threw SLOW junk.

Well some might argue that old-time hitters could maybe still hit today I don't think you'll find as many who say old time pitchers would dominate today's game.

Put Randy Johnson back in the 30's and we'd be calling it the Randy Johnson Award NOT the Cy Young.

I've seen Randy go 150 a few times and as a fan it scares the hell out of me, but at this point you figure the guy knows what his arm can take and you give it the benefit of the doubt. Ryan had a game where he threw 230-something pitches once which I can't even fathom.

I think pitch counts should be mandatory for the first 3 years a pitcher is in the majors, and you go from there. I'm tired of seeing shitty managers screw up good arms by letting them overextend themselves.

Yeah, and Randy has been chronically hurt the past few seasons. If his coaches put him on a shorter leash they might of gotten more Randy the last two years.

Randy hurts himself more with that HARDassed slider of his. He's so big though that he can throw it without killing himself TOO much though, but still his overdone it too much and it's hurt him a bit.

Fastballs wear you down but don't injure as much as breaking balls, especially hard Mariano Rivera cutters. If Rivera threw 5 or 6 innings in a row every 5th day he'd be shot in less than 3mos.

Wha...? Randy Johnson was out due to arthroscopic KNEE surgery last year, not because of arm troubles. And chronically hurt? Outside of last seasons KNEE issues, you have to go back to 1997 to find a year where he's started fewer than 34 games and pitched fewer than 240 innings.

Methinks you're beating around the wrong bush.

To get back on topic, I think it really depends on the pitchers body type and age. You don't want to just throw innings at a guy that's not used to it, for instance, the increase in Mark Prior's workload last season was inordinately high. Were talking about a pitcher that went from 138 innings in 2001, to 168 innings in 2002 (18% increase), to 235 innings in 2003 (30% increase). Or how about Josh Beckett nearly doubling his innings pitched from 2002 to 2003?

I'm sure if you look back at rookie pitchers, you'll find a solid correlation between arm injuries and abnormally high increases in their workloads.

And if were talking about guys like Pedro Martinez, they should be on a pitch count regardless, they simply don't have the body type to handle such high workloads.

i've alway's disagreed on this. just because a pitcher throw's harder doesn't mean he's straining his arm anymore then somebody else if their arm strength is built up well. i think if a pitcher throw's all he has and it goes 80 mph that he's straining his arm just as much as the guy who can get it up to 100. the pitcher's today are babied way too much. i can understand it to a certain extent. jeff torborg anybody? now with a young upcoming pitcher you don't want to overload his workload. this happen's all the time because in the minor's some team's only let their pitcher's throw 70 ball's or so a game on less starts in a given season then if they were in the big leagues. then they turn around the next year and make the big league club and throw 90-100 pitches a game with 10 more starts. so they're throwing way more pitches combined then they have ever done in their lifetime. they need to build it up in time i think. i agree with monk on randy johnson. that was a terrible person to bring up on pitch count's and extending a career. the man is 40 and still is one of the 5 best pitchers in the game and he's so called chronic injuries haven't been so chronic. his knee was fucked up last year and in the year's prior his main concern has always been his back. this is mainly due cause he's so fucking tall.

Interestingly enough, Mets pitching coach Rick Peterson wrote about this very topic in the Sunday Edition of the New York Times.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/18/sp...8peterson.html

Young Pitching Arms Must Be Monitored
By RICK PETERSON

Published: July 18, 2004

Talent does not equal performance. Preparation equals performance. In a lifetime of playing and coaching baseball, I have found this to be one of the hardest concepts for many to grasp, and perhaps the most important. Unfulfilled potential is all too familiar in sports. Thanks to research and analysis, we have learned and proved that potential can be fully realized through proper preparation.

Much of that unfulfilled potential is caused by injury. Young pitchers today are experiencing arm problems at an alarming rate. Parents, coaches and players may not know that the seeds for these injuries are usually planted early on, in Little League, and can be avoided by adhering to some relatively simple guidelines.

When I was a young college pitcher, I injured my arm and was never able to get back to my top form. In the late 1980's, as a coach in the minor leagues, I saw more of the same - pitchers with extraordinary talent whose careers were sidetracked, or cut short, by injury. I began to explore the elements of the pitching delivery and the toll that its explosive force took on the human body. I also came to the realization that these injuries were not random acts of misfortune. They were, in many cases, the byproduct of years and years of improper use, or overuse.

In 1989, Dr. James Andrews, a leading orthopedic surgeon who has treated many professional athletes, opened the doors of the American Sports Medicine Institute in Birmingham, Ala., and I had the great fortune of being there, thanks to a coaching position in the same city. Andrews brought in the top biomechanists from around the world to study and analyze pitching delivery with the goal of reducing the risk of injury and of enhancing performance. The combination of his scientific knowledge and my practical experience helped us both learn more about the mechanics of the delivery of a pitch from the inside out.

We explored data, video and statistical information from the Bob Gibson era forward, hoping to find common characteristics among all great pitchers that would allow us to design a training system and achieve similar success. We discovered that the pitching delivery is an accumulation of rotational and linear velocities. Perhaps most amazing was the revelation that hip rotation is directly related to fastball velocity.

To understand this, one must imagine the human body as a series of connected spheres. If those spheres could rotate completely, the hip would rotate at a rate of two and three-quarters revolutions a second, the upper torso at five revolutions a second and the shoulder at 20 a second. At a certain point in the delivery, the ball accelerates from 0 to 90 miles an hour in three-tenths of a second. This violent process would be deadly if experienced by the entire body. Being funneled through the arm alone, it can cause anything from temporary discomfort to permanent damage if not harnessed through a proper training regimen and monitored with appropriate supervision.

Young pitchers are particularly susceptible to arm injuries because their growth plates have not fully matured. In addition, damage done while still growing may not produce symptoms of injury until much later, as the body matures.

As the father of three young boys (whom I will not allow to pitch until they are 13), I know the temptation to think, "They're kids; they're strong and healthy," and to be swept away in the competitive nature of the game. In truth, however, there is no correlation between success at the Little League level and success at the professional level. It is extremely important for adults to monitor youth pitchers and adhere to a few standard guidelines that can help ensure future health.

We have developed a system with three major components, the Peak Performance Triangle. The first area of focus deals with fundamental skills, or developing proper mechanics and honing the process of the delivery. The second factor is a physical conditioning program that will help keep the body healthy and allow it to withstand the forces and velocities created each time a pitch is thrown. The third area focuses on the mental and emotional facets of the game, or how to handle both success and failure, filter out distractions and deal with one pitch at a time and one hitter at a time.

A pitch count is also extremely important, especially for youth pitchers. Most Little Leagues, and even some high schools and colleges, neglect the pitch count, a tool that has come to prominence recently in the major leagues. A 12-year-old teammate of my son's once threw an astounding 120 pitches in a game. That type of overuse can be terribly harmful and amounts to physical abuse. Studies have shown a significant relationship between the number of pitches thrown and the risk of injury.

The American Sports Medicine Institute has a recommended limit for pitch counts, based on a pitcher's age. Nine- and 10-year-olds should throw no more than 50 pitches a game, and 11- to 14-year-olds should not exceed 75 a game. When in doubt, err on the conservative side.

Young pitchers should also be encouraged to throw only fastballs. Breaking pitches, like curveballs or sliders, increase the strain on the arm and the risk of injuries. Pitchers should work solely on developing proper mechanics and mastering their control while changing the speeds of their pitches.

Underneath all the medical jargon and the dangers and the risks, we, as parents and coaches, must always remember that the game is played for fun. The best way to ensure that our children will keep having fun for years to come is to teach them an approach to sports that enhances their ability to excel and to remain healthy.

Not to quibble, but knee injuries can very well be pitching related. Pitchers, especially power pitchers, come down damn hard on those knees.

Good article posted there, BTW.

This is very true. One of the main reasons credited to Ryan's longevity and velocity was from his incredible leg strength and motion that put all the pressure on his legs, not his shoulder.

Could you not assume that a knee injury could be caused by a 6'11" man being 6'11"? Randy Johnson is extremely unique, and his pitching mechanics are excellent. His mechanics for a left-handed pitcher are nearly perfect, and the fact that he has not had arm injuries is a testiment to his mechanics.

When throwing a baseball, a person has to be extremely conscious of his/her arm slot and elbow. It does not come naturally to throw overhand, and does not come naturally to use your entire body and not just your elbow. Most elbow problems are caused by mental fatigue and laziness, compounded by poor mechanics which stress certain parts of the arm. Plus, many pitchers are stupid and do not know their limits.

In many cases prospects are given excellent care when they are in a minor league system. When you get to college and you are with a dipshit coach (or high school for that matter) it gets to be a problem. I remember a few years ago Cal State Fullerton held their pitching staff to a strict 80 pitch limit for most of the season (especially for their young players) because it is a huge step to go from high school baseball to college baseball. Plus, these top flight college clubs have the talent that putting their young pitchers in the bullpen for a year will not hurt them competitively and will help them in the long run. The amount of stress a 55 game plus schedule in a matter or 70 days is crippling for many high school kids.

I would say pride is the biggest factor in arm trouble. Many pitchers throw past normal discomfort and a lot of pitchers do not want to be taken out regardless of the long term risks. You hardly ever see pitchers trying to maintain feeling in their fingers, throwing through throbbing elbow or shoulder issues, or other ailments at the professional level. if there is a problem physically the professionals are trained to let the coaches know because skipping a start or two will probably help out better then pitching on it and having to get tommy john or any other reason for an extended DL stint. Pitchers come out between innings instead of after the game where they have done a lot of damage.

I am for the pitch count to a point. Every body is different and coaches should have a sliding scale for each pitcher depending on what level their arm fatigues. 100 pitches seems arbitrary because there are people like schil or mulder or others that can throw, while there are people like Pedro that should be kept to 90 pitches or so. Plus, some people think that because they throw slow that their pitch count could be higher, but pitch speed has little to do with the pitch count. The pitcher throwing 87 is throwing as hard as he can just like a pitcher throwing 95 is throwing as hard as he can.

So, extending careers and not overbabying.

I read about this somewhere, or it may have been listening to a radio show, but the Nolan Ryan 230 pitch count game is a bit of a myth. He still pitched a TON that game (around 180-190), but the difference is that back in those days the only person who kept a pitch count was the pitching coach & he's the one who told Ryan that he had gone 230 pitches. The problem is that they included warm-up pitches, something not done when compiling modern-day pitch counts.

Pitch counts are indeed necessary. Pitchers that are left in for 120 pitches or more - especially young pitchers - have much more arm trouble. Just look at the Cubs (I'm only pointing this out because they're a hometown team & I know more about them); they have a manager who doesn't worry too much about pitch counts & they've had pitchers with arm troubles the last couple years.

I do think that if pitchers are brought around slowly, they can reach a point where they can do 120 pitches fairly regularly. You just have to build up to it over the course of years.

This is true. One of our former players, who was a AAA all-star last season, threw with a sore shoulder all during camp. He made three starts this season, had an earnie around 9, went on the DL.. came off the DL two months later, threw a shutout inning of relief and then got cut.

He felt like he had to pitch else lose his job, and guess what.. he did.

What is more important is mechanics. I think a person has a tolerance at which their arm is fatigued, but if a person has the proper mechanics it makes sure that the fatigue does not cause injury. While overhand is not a normal movement for the arm (like underhand is more natural), there is a proper way to throw. Some pitchers that throw 3 quarters run the risk of injury, as well as not driving with their legs, or overthrowing. That is what made Mark Prior's injury so weird. Mark Prior has perfect mechanics. He is the player that every parent should point to and say, "THIS IS HOW YOU THROW". Not pitch, but throw. From third base to first base to outfield, every player should look at his motion. Obviously there is some variations that each position player needs to make (like an outfielder having a larger arm circle, to a catcher and shortstop having a quick release).

Prior's injury was thought to be tendonitis in the elbow, but Jason Stark reported today that the doctors were wrong and Prior has a rare bone problem in the elbow (some sort of chipping that they have not seen before). It is not anything that needs surgury, but is causing the discomfort in his arm. Prior has never been injured in his life, which is a testiment to his mechanics. This freak injury just shows you with proper mechanics, a player can continue pitching through discomfort without causing worse damage.

Apparently theres an essay in Bill James and Rob Neyers new book The Neyer / James Guide to Pitchers: An Historical Compendium of Pitching, Pitchers, and Pitches that "eviscerates" the research behind PAP, stating that “We have driven a long way here down a blind alley, and we’re not going to fix it by backing up a few feet and trying again.”

A few points by James excerpted from a recent Baseball Think Factory Article:

“Backing away from the pitcher’s limits too far doesn’t make a pitcher less vulnerable; it makes him more vulnerable. And pushing the envelope, while it may lead to a catastrophic event, is more likely to enhance the pitcher’s durability than to destroy it.”

“What I believe has happened is that this balancing of risks has just gone completely haywire. Two things have happened to cause it to go haywire:

1) We have introduced new information---pitch counts---into a previously organized way of thinking about the issue, and 2) We have focused undue attention on the risk of chronic overuse, which in reality is merely one of many potential problems for a pitcher.

There is a natural balancing of risks, between avoiding a catastrophic event, and developing a tolerance for more work. In order to develop a real understanding of this issue, we are going to have to take account of both ends of the injury spectrum.”

I haven't read the book yet, but I always find what James-or Neyer for that matter-brings to the table quite interesting.

What Pitch Counts Hath Wrought
by Steve Treder
August 04, 2004

"Whether or not one agrees with my assertion that the limitations on the workloads of the current era's best pitchers are unnecessary, here is something that's indisputably true: one result of the fact that modern aces work less than those of all preceding eras is that inferior pitchers are working proportionally more innings. This in itself may be part of the explanation for the offensive boom of the 1990s. It's also beyond dispute that the pitch count limit orthodoxy of the modern era has resulted in no meaningful reduction in rates of injury -- if anything, injuries to pitchers have increased.

It is, in short, a policy that has delivered an extremely poor cost-benefit. Pitchers get hurt a lot; they always have, and 15 years into the era of significantly reduced workloads, they still do. If I were a major league GM, I would work on instituting a conditioning and pitcher-use program throughout my organization that would strive to develop starting pitchers capable of throwing at least 10% more pitches per season than the modern norm. I'm confident that in the long run such a program would provide a significant competitive advantage, without producing greater injury rates than are occurring now.

Please understand that I'm not saying that there is no place for pitch counting in monitoring and handling pitchers, nor am I saying that pitch count limits aren't appropriate for young pitchers (and of course for amateur pitchers). I'm saying, as are James and Malcolm, that there's a reasonable deployment of the tool, and there's an unreasonable, counterproductive fixation upon it, and over the past decade and a half we've left the former behind and driven ourselves right into the latter. As James and Malcolm put it, being overly concerned with pitch counts has steered modern baseball into a blind alley."