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The Shining- Ghosts or Dementia?

post #1 of 43
9/2/04 at 3:51pm
Thread Starter 
What exactly is the cause of the all of the evil activity in The Shining? Are there lactual ghosts in the hotel or are all of the evil doings a product of the stress and dementia of Jack, Danny, and Wendy? At times it seems clear that much of the most of problem resides in Jack's head, such as his "conversations" with Lloyd the bartender and other ghosts. But other times such as when Wendy (who seems the most sane of the family members) sees the blood coming out of the elevator the hotel seems to be an actual haunted house.

So what is the most likely scenario? Kubrick seems like he would be more fond of toying with the darkness in people's minds than spinning a straight ghost yarn. I'm inclined think the majority of it is entirely mental rather than supernatural. With the exception of the actual "shining" power of course.
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post #2 of 43
9/2/04 at 3:53pm
Ghost enduced dementia.
Each character had their own problem. The ghosts exploited that.

Poor Scatman Caruthers.
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post #3 of 43
9/2/04 at 4:36pm
Yeah, my interpretation was that the hotel was kind of a malevolent presence that was taking advantage of Jack's sorry mental state. So he was kind of crazy to begin with, and like Bob said, the hotel exploited that. And once it had pushed Jack over the edge, it figured all it had to do was sit back and watch the carnage. Then in the end Jack, like Grady, becomes one with the hotel and is there to torment future caretakers. Although considering what a miserable failure he was at slaughtering his family, I doubt he'll get such a prestigious ghost-career as a hotel bartender.
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post #4 of 43
9/2/04 at 5:32pm
When Grady's ghost actually physically unlocks the door to the freezer to let Jack out is the one instance of proof that there were ghosts and it was not all in their heads. Kubrick said so himself in an interview.

"as the supernatural events occurred you searched for an explanation, and the most likely one seemed to be that the strange things that were happening would finally be explained as the products of Jack's imagination. It's not until Grady, the ghost of the former caretake who axed to death his family, slides open the bolt of the larder door, allowing Jack to escape, that you are left with no other explanation but the supernatural."
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post #5 of 43
9/2/04 at 7:40pm
Thread Starter 
That's a good point, and really the only part in the film that couldn't be explained by some sort of collective delusions.
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post #6 of 43
9/2/04 at 10:24pm
Nose candy, pure, uncut, Colombian nose candy.
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post #7 of 43
9/3/04 at 5:27am
Scariest. film. ever.

Apparently the R1 DVD is a longer cut of the movie, like extra scenes at the end where the guy who hired Jack appears again to bookend the film and spell things out a bit more.

If anyone's seen the two versions, is it worth buying the DVD again just for those longer scenes?
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post #8 of 43
9/3/04 at 5:42am
Ghosts. The picture at the end of the movie pretty much confirms that.

Unless you, the viewer, are also in on the dementia. That's a noodle-scratcher, huh?
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post #9 of 43
9/3/04 at 9:56am
From reading the book, I got the impression that the hotel feeds off Danny's Shining ability initially. When the family first arrives at the hotel, Dick more or less says this to Danny - the hotel had bad things happen but they're just movies that people with the Shining can see. However, he also mentions that Danny's abilities are the strongest he has come across and I figured that this is what allows the ghosts to physically manifest themselves and to get into Jack's head (and also explains how his wife sees them too at the end).
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post #10 of 43
9/3/04 at 4:56pm
217 was the door to the other world. Its where the saddest death happened. It unlocked everything evil.

The only thing i dont get is the pic at the end of the movie.
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post #11 of 43
9/3/04 at 11:49pm
Danny could see the pictures but Jack made them come alive. Jack was always the caretaker.
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post #12 of 43
10/1/09 at 7:33pm
The ambiguity that Kubrick usually plays with is pretty rewarding. The way the freezer is opened up and the picture at the end does kind of tip the hand that Kubrick didn't completely get rid of the mystical qualities of King's original. It's kind of odd that, in the entire film, there is only that one instance that suggests what's going on isn't entirely in the heads of the characters.

I hadn't considered that the picture might have been a way of confronting the audience with the idea that they are party to the delusions themselves. That's an interesting take.
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post #13 of 43
10/1/09 at 10:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuchulain View Post
It's kind of odd that, in the entire film, there is only that one instance that suggests what's going on isn't entirely in the heads of the characters.
Jack in the picture at the close of the film would count as another one, no?
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post #14 of 43
10/1/09 at 10:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bendrix View Post
Jack in the picture at the close of the film would count as another one, no?
I think the picture is more ambiguous than the door. With the door bolted from the outside and all of the non-ghost characters accounted for and absent from the scene, there really is no explanation for the door opening other than the idea that the dialogue he's having is not a delusion.

The picture, on the other hand, is open to few other possible interpretations. It could have been there in the hall and featuring a person who looks exactly like Jack, which plants the seed for the hotel based delusions in Jack's mind. Others have noted the camera work operates much as if the film is being shot from the perspective of an off-screen character. Kubrick might be trying to get the audience to identify with the community inside the hotel and feel party to the delusions, which manifest themselves for the viewer in seeing Jack in the picture. There are a lot of ways of explaining away the photo, which aren't there for the door.
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post #15 of 43
10/1/09 at 10:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by stripeymonkey View Post
... I figured that this is what allows the ghosts to physically manifest themselves and to get into Jack's head (and also explains how his wife sees them too at the end).
I think it's pretty much implied that Jack has a bit of shine to himself. They (Scatman) make mention that it's passed on from generation to generation. Wendy obviously doesn't have it. And given the way things play out, who does that leave?
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post #16 of 43
10/1/09 at 10:43pm
Also:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stanley Kubrick Interview
How do you see the main character of Jack in The Shining?

Jack comes to the hotel psychologically prepared to do its murderous bidding. He doesn't have very much further to go for his anger and frustration to become completely uncontrollable. He is bitter about his failure as a writer. He is married to a woman for whom he has only contempt. He hates his son. In the hotel, at the mercy of its powerful evil, he is quickly ready to fulfill his dark role.

So you don't regard the apparitions as merely a projection of his mental state?

For the purposes of telling the story, my view is that the paranormal is genuine. Jack's mental state serves only to prepare him for the murder, and to temporarily mislead the audience.

And when the film has finished? What then?

I hope the audience has had a good fright, has believed the film while they were watching it, and retains some sense of it. The ballroom photograph at the very end suggests the reincarnation of Jack.

You can read the whole thing here (I highly recommend it):

http://www.visual-memory.co.uk/amk/d...erview.ts.html

Also, more interviews here:

http://www.visual-memory.co.uk/amk/doc/interview.html
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post #17 of 43
10/5/09 at 10:58am
My personal interpretation has always been that it's ghosts, and not just the imagination. Between Grady unlocking the freezer, Jack in the photo at the end, and Wendy - who is the only sane person left in the hotel - also seeing many of the "apparitions", it's always been my opinion that it's ghosts, not insanity or cabin fever.
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post #18 of 43
10/5/09 at 11:16am
I'd argue that it's really not even up for debate. Just because it's subtle doesn't mean it's questionable.
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post #19 of 43
10/5/09 at 12:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeypants View Post
I'd argue that it's really not even up for debate. Just because it's subtle doesn't mean it's questionable.
I agree. I don't think anything in a Kubrick film--or the work of any great artist in any genre, really--can simply be explained away. Everything that is there is part of the fabric of the film and exists for a reason. So the door unlocking and the photo at the end are evidence of the supernatural at work.
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post #20 of 43
10/5/09 at 12:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMushnik View Post
I agree. I don't think anything in a Kubrick film--or the work of any great artist in any genre, really--can simply be explained away. Everything that is there is part of the fabric of the film and exists for a reason. So the door unlocking and the photo at the end are evidence of the supernatural at work.
That's to say nothing of the blatant telepathy going on.
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post #21 of 43
10/5/09 at 12:31pm
Well, I read the novel at one point, and I am pretty sure it is actually a combination of two seperate supernatural forces that is responsible for the unsual events and occurences at the Overlook.

1) There are ghosts, or visions of the dead
2) There is a demon that is the soul of the overlook

The overlook demon helps facilitate the ghots of visions of the dead appearing to Mr Torrence.

Later, Mr Torrence essentially dies and the demon takes over his body.

Hope that helps.
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post #22 of 43
10/5/09 at 12:47pm
Sometimes I forget that King wrote The Shining, and oversaw the T.V. miniseries that ended with the guy from Wings looking down on Danny's college graduation ceremony from heaven and smiling. Not to mention the exploding boiler.

I don't think the thread topic is up for debate, either.
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post #23 of 43
10/5/09 at 12:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor View Post
Sometimes I forget that King wrote The Shining, and oversaw the T.V. miniseries that ended with the guy from Wings looking down on Danny's college graduation ceremony from heaven and smiling. Not to mention the exploding boiler.

I don't think the thread topic is up for debate, either.


What is wrong with the boiler? That is one of the most chilling scenes in the book. The description of "Jack" (actually the Overlook in physical form) trying to release the boiler preasure still makes me uncomfortable. Very well written sequence
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post #24 of 43
10/5/09 at 1:38pm
So, is anyone actually making the arguement that there aren't ghosts in the Overlook?
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post #25 of 43
10/5/09 at 1:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arjen Rudd View Post
So, is anyone actually making the arguement that there aren't ghosts in the Overlook?
I guess you could argue that the Ghosts are apparitions brought into being by the Demon, rather than actual souls trapped in the place. They are visions of people dead and indeed from the hotels past, but not technically ghosts.

Not saying that's what I think, but it could be argued.
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post #26 of 43
10/5/09 at 2:07pm
It could be argued that it's actually a corrupt real estate developer orchestrating everything in an attempt to scare people away so he can search for the Overlook's fabled buried treasure.
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post #27 of 43
10/5/09 at 2:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobClark View Post
It could be argued that it's actually a corrupt real estate developer orchestrating everything in an attempt to scare people away so he can search for the Overlook's fabled buried treasure.
Zoinks! Now the Scatman connection makes sense!

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post #28 of 43
10/5/09 at 2:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DARKMITE8 View Post
Zoinks! Now the Scatman connection makes sense!
Hey, the only time we see Scatman outside of the context of his interactions with the clearly unstable Danny, Wendy, and Jack are those scenes in which he feels something is "off" back at the hotel. Perhaps he actually does mean that he thinks the family are "completely unreliable assholes" and isn't making a cover story. His violent death and everything afterward could be taking place in Jack's head when he hears that his contract with the hotel is being terminated and blows a fuse. You never know.
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post #29 of 43
10/6/09 at 11:17am
You can't be serious. That last sentence doesn't even make sense.
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post #30 of 43
10/7/09 at 8:40am
It's hard to tell in the film, because of the way it's filmed, but that scene where Dick is lying on his bed in Florida, and looking all wide eyed & scared, corresponds to a scene in the book where Danny "shines" him real hard & begs him to come back & help. I always had a problem with that scene, because in the book it's supposed to hit him like a bolt of lightning because Danny's shine is so powerful; IIRC, he thinks he may be having a stroke or something. He's definitely there for real, & not in Jack's head. It's definitely a cover story. He knows exactly why he's going back.
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post #31 of 43
10/7/09 at 11:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by IggytheBorg View Post
He's definitely there for real, & not in Jack's head. It's definitely a cover story. He knows exactly why he's going back.
Right, and that's a perfect example of why it is ghosts and not just all in Jack's/the Torrance family's heads. The big part of the book that leaves The Overlook is when we're with Dick in Florida, when he gets Danny's message and immediately makes plans to head back to Colorado. We're taken to someone else's life outside of the hotel, in another part of the country - it's clearly not just imagination.
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post #32 of 43
10/7/09 at 12:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Kate View Post
I guess you could argue that the Ghosts are apparitions brought into being by the Demon, rather than actual souls trapped in the place. They are visions of people dead and indeed from the hotels past, but not technically ghosts.

Not saying that's what I think, but it could be argued.
Sigh, what are you on about? There is no demon infesting the Overlook Hotel. One of the concepts that King returns to time and time again is that of the "bad place", i.e. places that--through past violent actions or their own natural history--are repositories of evil. Think of the Marsten (sp?) house in "Salem's Lot". Essentially, King describes these places as evil batteries, retaining the psychic power of all the bad things that happen there. In "The Shining", Danny's power provides the Overlook Hotel with the dry charge it needs to start functioning again. To borrow other imagery, he's inadvertently winding the Hotel's mainspring up. Everything that follows is simply a manifestation or projection of the Overlook Hotel, from Grady to the woman in Room 217 to (in the novel) the sentient topiary.

And end the derail.
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post #33 of 43
10/7/09 at 12:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobClark View Post
You can't be serious. That last sentence doesn't even make sense.
Yes, I'm quoting a picture of Scooby and the Mystery Machine and I'm 100% serious. Please, feel free to school me on this subject and the use of sarcasm in other threads.
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post #34 of 43
10/7/09 at 2:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuchulain View Post
Yes, I'm quoting a picture of Scooby and the Mystery Machine and I'm 100% serious. Please, feel free to school me on this subject and the use of sarcasm in other threads.
Rut-roh.
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post #35 of 43
10/7/09 at 2:42pm
I would have gotten away with it too...
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post #36 of 43
10/7/09 at 6:18pm
I hate this thread - full of you meddling kids.
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post #37 of 43
10/7/09 at 10:45pm
Gotta watch this thread real close, now. . . She CREEPS.
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post #38 of 43
10/7/09 at 11:27pm
I know this is hardly new, but I love it.

Fat kid renenacts The Shining.
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post #39 of 43
10/7/09 at 11:37pm

^ That kid's teeth scare me

Even scarier: he does a decent Shelley Duvall impression.

In both novel and movie the Overlook is a Bad Place, somehow sentient and able to put on "masks" to manipulate people.

Danny's Shining powers the hotel (in the book Danny finds an elaborate Cuckoo Clock, winds it up, and sees a toy man bash a toy woman to death with a mallet. Then he has visions where he turns into a key. Subtle)

At the end of the novel the Overlook is burning: As Wendy, Danny and Halloran are running away, Halloran looks back and sees something "like a swarm of wasps" flying out of the hotel and dissipating.

Kubrick is not so optimistic and not willing to tip his hand. Kubrick also does not spell out the relation of Danny or Jack to the hotel. The fact that all this nightmarish stuff is taking place in (mostly) broad daylight or very well lit nighttime, adds to the unsettling nature of the film in my opinion.

Also Danny is totally Shining at Halloran in Florida; the later gets all wide eyed because he's being blasted by the visions Danny projects at him
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post #40 of 43
10/7/09 at 11:48pm
They're fake teeth. He's using them to mock Shelly Duvall.
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post #41 of 43
10/8/09 at 12:30am
This guy's analysis is worth watching...he does an excellent job of dissecting the film:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEulbcXkgjo
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post #42 of 43
10/8/09 at 1:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arjen Rudd View Post
They're fake teeth. He's using them to mock Shelly Duvall.
You hope
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post #43 of 43
10/8/09 at 10:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Me
Sigh, what are you on about? There is no demon infesting the Overlook Hotel. One of the concepts that King returns to time and time again is that of the "bad place", i.e. places that--through past violent actions or their own natural history--are repositories of evil. Think of the Marsten (sp?) house in "Salem's Lot". Essentially, King describes these places as evil batteries, retaining the psychic power of all the bad things that happen there. In "The Shining", Danny's power provides the Overlook Hotel with the dry charge it needs to start functioning again. To borrow other imagery, he's inadvertently winding the Hotel's mainspring up. Everything that follows is simply a manifestation or projection of the Overlook Hotel, from Grady to the woman in Room 217 to (in the novel) the sentient topiary.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cylon Baby View Post
In both novel and movie the Overlook is a Bad Place, somehow sentient and able to put on "masks" to manipulate people.

Danny's Shining powers the hotel (in the book Danny finds an elaborate Cuckoo Clock, winds it up, and sees a toy man bash a toy woman to death with a mallet. Then he has visions where he turns into a key. Subtle)
You guys can see my posts, right? Just makin' sure.
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