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Sympathy for Mr Vengeance

post #1 of 22
Thread Starter 
I actually posted a review in the foreign films thread months ago but I couldn't find it, oh well. Before reading this please be aware there are major spoilers in this review.

If you asked me what I felt after seeing this movie for the first time i'd say numbness. This movie is cold and unflinching, I think it may very well be one of the most depressing movies ever made. The fact that Chan-Wook chose to follow up JSA with this shows the size of his balls. I think this movie didn't do well financially but we reaped the rewards otherwise.

For those who haven't seen this movie, I'll lay it out for you, Ryu is a deaf mute with a sister who's slowly dying, her only hope is to get a transplant. Ryu would gladly give up his own kidney but is told he's the wrong blood type. Ryu is getting desparate so he replies to a number on a black market sticker pasted onto the wall of a public toilet. They screw him and take his money then of all the ironies, a kidney arrives and all he has to do is hand over the cash that he would've had if he'd just waited. Running out of options, his girlfriend, Bae Doon-Na comes up with a plan to kidnap the daughter of a wealthy business man, Dong-Jin (Song Kang-Ho).

I'll stop there but I have to say this movie is essentially about decisions and how they can lead to places of the human soul which lead us to do things we could never dream of. In Ryu's case, everything he did was for his sister, his fatal mistake was trying to cut through the system and he ended up paying dearly for it which led him to make another decision and become a kidnapper. In Dong-Jin's case, his sense of injustice and fury at what happened to his daughter clouded any rational thought and he made the decision to hunt down his daughter's killer.

I'll say this now, Song Kang-Ho delivers an absolutely amazing performance here, korean or otherwise, his slow descent into obsession for justice is mesmerizing. There's one scene where he's watching the autopsy on his daughter and the whole scene runs for 2-3 mins but in that time Song Kang Ho manages to convery just about every facet of emotion without uttering a single word, it's completely heartbreaking and it's the same when he sees his daughter in the living room all wet and he picks her up and hugs her, desparate to hang on to her.

Shin Ha-Kyun nearly matches him and I think Shin may have had the harder performance to pull off seeing as he had to go through the whole movie without uttering a single world and communicate through sign language. His cry of anguish at the death of his sister is piercing because he can't form the words to express his loss. The film really belongs to these two actors but Bae Doo-Na also contributes a worthy performance as Ryu's girlfriend, seems funny to see them using sign language while screwing each other. The scene where Ryu has to share the lift with his dead girlfriend is quite emotional, all he can do is hold her hand on the way down and not make it look obvious.

Chan-Wook paces the movie slowly, as the movie progresses the violence gets progressively nastier, Ryu's method of a baseball bat to deal with the black marketer's is horrific, every swing of that bat and the thwack it made on the body of the man he was beating made me flinch, each and every time.

What else can be said, I think I still prefer this over Oldboy for reasons I can't fathom, maybe I'm just more cynical than I thought but there's an undercurrent of emotion in this film that tends to get overlooked in favor of the violence.
post #2 of 22
Saw this yesterday after watching Old Boy last week, this is further proof than Woo-Park is an excellent director who might yet become one of the greats. A lot of this film was kinda Kubrickian in its coldness, and the fact that so much of this story was without dialogue can only be admired. I also liked how Woo-Park mostly avoided the easy tricks, like cutting off all sounds to represent the deaf's POV, and how the film suddenly changed its main protagonist mid-way through, where a normal film would have kept its focus on the character we're introduced to at the beginning.

It's also refreshing to see a film where the actual consequences of violence are actually shown unflinchingly instead of being presented as entertainment, and where like in real life there are no "heroes" and "villains" - in a way films like Lethal Weapon or Bad Boys are much more obscene than this graphically violent film was.

I agree with you this is one of the most depressing films ever made and for this reason I prefer Old Boy's pyrotechnics, even if it is more "Hollywoodised" and has less artistic integrity - but at least I don't feel like taking a bath after watching it, and it seemed more focused if more commercial than Sympathy was. Despite the mechanics of the plots being a bit unbelievable sometimes in both films, they are very powerful meditations on revenge and violence the likes of which I hadn't seen in a long time.

From JSA to SFMV to Old Boy each of Woo-Park's film seems to have taken a big qualitative leap for me - can't wait for the last film of the "revenge" trilogy.
post #3 of 22
Thread Starter 
I think the next one is going to be more in line with Oldboy in terms of style. I did read in an interview with Chan-Wook that he said he had no Sympathy for any of the characters in this film because they made their choices out of a blind rationalisation that their actions were warranted on some level.

I agree Oldboy is more watchable and I don't watch this as often but I when I do watch, I find it far more powerful than the more accessible Oldboy.
post #4 of 22
Have to agree with you on the the fact that this is far more powerful and weighty stuff than Oldboy (which in no way maligns the stupendously good Oldboy). I have often heard the film being called Nihilistic and cold and yet I personally feel it is one of the more emotion driven films from current asian cinema. What is incredible is the fact you can sympathise with Park as well as Ryu, despite the chairman's often merciless actions for revenge.

I also think that this is one of the more beautiful films I have seen, the mundane is shot in such a way as to be mesmerising, and Park's final act of vengeance is beautiful in its poetic majesty.... the blood in the water just looks incredible.

I also like the 'gag' at the end with regards to the terrorist group.
post #5 of 22
I've watched the director's movies in the order they came out, so I've basically seen him slowly go more insane, lol. This movie is my favourite of his, its just more complex for me, more characters with different motivations than Oldboy thats for sure, but overall its just an amazing film, and Dragon Ma you mention the autopsy scene as striking, well for me it was the scene when the father is torturing that lady, and he's eating noodles, watching her basically die, it just sealed his descent into the Dark Side, know what I mean?

Song Kang-Ho is one of my favourite actors, he's also great in Memories of Murder, check it out.

Sympathy For Mr Vengeance and Oldboy are simply the best revenge movies ever made, they beat off any other competition easily, now we'll have to see if Park can deliver with Sympathy For Mrs Vengeance and give us the best revenge trilogy the world has ever seen.
post #6 of 22
Thread Starter 
I think the whole movie is like one giant descent into an abyss which no-one comes back from, it's like a shakesperean tragedy. Ryu makes one mistake which leads to another etc. I mentioned that autopsy scene because it's so heartwrenching, the emotion is laidbare on Dong's face and it's contrasted by a scene later where he's watching them cut up Ryu's gf and he's quite visibly bored. He just doesn't care anymore.
post #7 of 22
Saw OLDBOY yesterday. I'm dying to see this and his other flicks.
post #8 of 22
Thread Starter 
Well, JSA is probably park's most accessible movie so far, it's still pretty good as a murder mystery with political subtext. SFMV isn't as polished or glossy as Oldboy but it's still a great film, I think it has an undercurrent of more emotion than Oldboy but that's just me.
post #9 of 22
you know what pisses me off? that this has a score of 33% on rotten tomatoes.
post #10 of 22
1) There arent too many reviews...
2) The wankers that gave negative reviews did so before Park hit it big with Oldboy and so will now change their minds about his previous films.

Because wankers are like that.
post #11 of 22
What annoys me is that alot of the negative reviews seem to bash the film for its 'excessive' violence and nihlistic unemotional characters. One reviewer even says he finds it hard to find sympathy for any of the main characters.

Seriously with regards to asian cinema this film is actually quite minimal with regards to the violence (the arterial spray from the scissors is possibly a little overdone) and is possibly the most deep and thoughtful movie of the last decade with regards to character motivations.
post #12 of 22
*spoilers*

I have to recall my previous comment, because i just finally saw this, and wasnt really impressed at all. All it really had going for it for me was its coldness. The movie at points gets stupidly cold, like for some reason The father stands by and watches while mortuary workers carve his dead little girl up, or when the cop says right infront of him "it could be worse, its not like our daughter was kidnapped and killed". i was like gimme a fuckin break. another over the top scene was the one where the hospital thinking he is the father of that boy calls up and says "are you the boys father?, he died today, can you please come and take the body away now? that type of stuff to me is pandering, expecting me to believe people act in this manner just so you can make your film seem that much colder is cheap.

it was also incredibly drawn out, coldness played up for dramatic effect, and the ridiculous moment when ryu changes and practically becomes ichi the killer shouldve been left out entirely.

i just went back and re-read harry knowles' top ten of 2002, in which this was number 1, he said he had decided about half an hour before the end that this movie would be at least number three, why?? because it goes really violent? at that point the only thing that has happened throughout the movie is relentless bleakness without a resolution yet. but thats enough for a number 3 slot on a best of list? its like the same over the top gushing over ichi the killer, that was a terrible film that people tried to justify as brilliant for reasons they couldnt explain, not being able to just admit they liked it just because malicious torture and violence is all anyone needs to call a film powerful.

Just so we know where we stand, Oldboy is on my top ten list ever. It is definately a much better film than this.

*edit* i was trying to think of a way to describe the ending, and i eventually came across it in one of the reviews, cheap irony.
post #13 of 22
Thread Starter 
I'll agree this film is cold and violent but I don't see how you can compare this with Iichi the Killer as they're vastly different films. The is film has nowhere near as much violence and depravity as that film, it's relatively tame in comparison, I can't understand how you could compare them. You may have a point that Song didn't really need to watch his daughter getting carved up but that doesn't lessen the impact. I disagree on your assessment that all this movie had going for it was it's coldness, the scene where Song imagined his daughter in the living room was an incredibly powerful moment along with Ryu's reaction to his sister's death, he wants to scream in pain but he can't.

You're overlooking the undercurrent of emotion in this film because you can't get past the violence, Oldboy is a visually more satisfying film for sure but I never once felt the emotional connection that I got with Sympathy.
post #14 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon Ma
I'll agree this film is cold and violent but I don't see how you can compare this with Iichi the Killer as they're vastly different films. The is film has nowhere near as much violence and depravity as that film, it's relatively tame in comparison, I can't understand how you could compare them. You may have a point that Song didn't really need to watch his daughter getting carved up but that doesn't lessen the impact. I disagree on your assessment that all this movie had going for it was it's coldness, the scene where Song imagined his daughter in the living room was an incredibly powerful moment along with Ryu's reaction to his sister's death, he wants to scream in pain but he can't.

You're overlooking the undercurrent of emotion in this film because you can't get past the violence, Oldboy is a visually more satisfying film for sure but I never once felt the emotional connection that I got with Sympathy.
I never said the movie is LIKE Ichi per se, what i mean is that its another example of a movie being regarded a masterpiece because it looks at violence unflinchingly. So you can get past that now.

Oldboy was about a hundred times more emotional for me, because i got to follow a character who i felt for, Mr Vengeance had not a single character i cared for. The only connection i ever had with the film was a couple jaw dropping moments when something bad happens, like seeing the young girl's corpse float around, or when we watch her get cremated, but these things are just here to shock. and that moment where we watch the father watching his daughter get cut open while squishy gore sounds are happening in the background is not the only moment i mentioned that pandered, if there is one thing i cant stand its a movie that panders to the audience, same reason i disliked Million Dollar Baby, same reason i disliked this.

And the ending was beyond cheap, its the type of ending that gets tacked onto student films by people who havent discovered subtlety yet.

The movie was filled with many things that distracted or annoyed, such as the mentally handicapped guy, and the way the story was told was jarring, it always felt like there were scenes missing. I was sitting wondering what the hell just happened, all of a sudden they are in possession of the little girl, all of a sudden his girlfriend is with the kidney stealing people, all of a sudden she is a terrorist, all of a sudden ryu goes off on a murderous rage, it was all over the place.
post #15 of 22
I was thoroughly enthralled by the movie, and I did have sympathy for just about all the characters. Hell, even the one kidney crook that got stabbed in the neck and cries out to his mother was sympathetic in that moment. I think the movie did a pretty good job of showing everyone as being worthy of both sympathy and scorn.

However, I did think that a few parts were overdone. When the father yawns during the second autopsy he watches, it felt too broad. A subtler performance would have been better. Also, I HATED the way the film ended with the flashback of the girlfriend talking about her "connections." Way to kill a cool ending with insulting over-explanation! When the credits hit, I wasn't thinking "Wow!" I was thinking "Uh... yeah... I got that, thanks."

Otherwise, I thought it was an excellent film. I'm completely amped for Lady Vengeance.
post #16 of 22
My thoughts, posted to a listserve to which I belong:

Chan Wook Park's SYMPATHY FOR MR. VENGEANCE is a beautiful, horrifying, depressing, and thoroughly successful picture. With the exception of a final scene so implausible that it drew me out of the movie, SFMV captured and held my attention and imagination, even when I wanted to look away.

Park, the director behind JSA and OLDBOY, knows how to compose a scene. The color palette (Does green have special significance in Korean iconography?), set decoration, and placement of the actors themselves work together time and again to not only drive the narrative but generate stills I'd be happy to linger over in book form. While Park's composition can deliver real beauty, it can also deliver real horror. Be warned: SFMV is a horrifying movie, with many shots more akin to Miike than Malick. You may want to think twice before screening it for your friends, and I had to flip the screen down on my portable DVD player more than once to avoid disturbing those around me on the Metro.

As Don alluded in his comments on HOSTEL, horror works best when we've invested in its characters. SFMV's cast, including JSA's Kang-Ho Song (also excellent in MEMORIES OF MURDER) and Ha-Kyun Shin, bring their characters fully to life and give us people for whom we hope and fear. I'd like to take special note of Shin, who says more with his deaf-mute character than some actors do with 90 minutes-worth of dialogue. This investment has a downside, however: SFMV is just plain depressing. It gives us people we like and proceeds to punish them, punish them, and punish them some more. But here's the brilliance of this movie: just when things are at their worst, it gives us a chance to say, "Wow, what a shot!" Its artistry actually serves to give us the distance to stay engaged in the film. Without it, the experience would be too much.

SYMPATHY FOR MR. VENGEANCE works. It just plain does. On every level. If I were that kind of guy, I could watch it again and again, finding more in the composition and structure, more in the events and performances. But I'm not that kind of guy. TOKYO STORY's sitting in my little DVD player, just waiting for the ride home.

I can't wait to see it.
===
Spike, what do you mean by "gag"?
post #17 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankCobretti

Spike, what do you mean by "gag"?
One of the documentaries with Park had him explaining that originally the chairman was just going to drive his car into the river at the end for closure, but it seemed utterly out of character given the actors improv, he actually stripped away a lot of the depression Chairman Park was written with, and in an attempt to create a conclusion to the story he used the girls throw away comments, designed as a desperate lie to spare her life, as a real way to end the story.

He refered to it as the gag ending because the audience would have thought the girl was lying to save herself.

It is a haunting movie though
post #18 of 22
Ah. That would be the "final scene so implausible that it drew me out of the movie." A poor choice in an otherwise excellent film.
post #19 of 22
Pretty much agree with everyone here. The film's utter bleakness is why I don't revisit it more often, but its also a source of the film's strength. It knocks you around from so many different angles that you're never sure when the next big thing is going to happen.
post #20 of 22
I pretty much just loved this movie. I didn't find it as bleak as everyone else seems to have, but perhaps that means I wasn't sufficiently engaged in the characters. I might just rent it today and start watching the trilogy all over again.

I'm not sure I had any sympathy for the kidnappers. I didn't hate them, and I understood Ryu's motivation, but I wasn't really rooting for him. That scene where he's digging in between the tree roots as the little girl goes past him in the background... I'll never forget that.

Incidentally, the "gag" ending seemed infinitely more plausible to my sensibility that the almost absurdist use of hypnotism as revealed in the last act of Oldboy. I really really loved the whole movie up till that villain-explains-it-all scene, and the movie never really got me back on its side after that.

What did you people think of his short film, Cut? I loved it. Really great looking. Lots of neat camera stuff. Reminds me sort of, of Fincher (I hope that doesn't offend anyone here). It almost seemed as if it was Park's
vengeance trilogy part 2.5. The antagonist seemed to have the same denial/vengeance mindset as the antagonist in Oldboy.
post #21 of 22
[QUOTE=almostsexy]Incidentally, the "gag" ending seemed infinitely more plausible to my sensibility that the almost absurdist use of hypnotism as revealed in the last act of Oldboy. I really really loved the whole movie up till that villain-explains-it-all scene, and the movie never really got me back on its side after that.
QUOTE]

What he said.

Both movies are still great, but I'm hoping that Lady V will buck the trend of of outlandishness in the resolution of the plot.
post #22 of 22
IGN's dvd review...well...sucks.

They gave the film a 5 out of 10...a five.

http://dvd.ign.com/articles/686/686497p1.html

Both Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance and Oldboy are great films and I don't have any problems with either one.

I think the main point he missed is that your supposed to laugh at some of it (like Fight Club, which is misunderstood by young people who think it's "the new gospel" and old people who say "I don't get why they're so angry", when it's mostly just meant to be funny). Your supposed to run the entire range of emotions and both films achieve that.

Also I'm really tired of the agruement "I didn't like any of the characters...I couldn't connect with anyone...etc". Do you always have to? Can't you watch something where no one is like you at all? Can't you connect with different characters at different times, when they're feeling different emotions? Do you always need a Han Solo, some cool character, who says cool things?

That said I am looking forward to Lady Vengeance very much.
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