The Grudge

...If you are a girl?

I'm lazy, so here's what I said in the other thread.

"The CGI was horrible, just horrible. Those eyes staring into the camera at one point made me want to shoot myself.

I don't think this movie delivered as far as scares or even a creepy atmosphere go. How scary is a little boy painted white or a CGI hair monster? There were a few scenes where I could just imagine what the director must have been telling that little kid. "Okay, now open your eyes really really wide and look at the lady down there. Wide eyes are scary." The jump scares were many and ineffective, I spent most of the movie laughing every time other people in the audience jumped when a phone rang or there was a flash of movement in the background. There were a few moments that creeped me out a bit but nothing that lasted after I left the theatre. The biggest one was the bed scene because that is basically my worst nightmare. Blankets are supposed to be MONSTER PROOF.

I was happy to see Ryo Ishibashi as the detective, he is one of my favorite Japanese actors. Something about him just appeals to me. The other characters were sort of flat and uninteresting, I had fun admiring Sarah Michelle Gellars boyfriends ass but we aren't made to feel anything for any of them, so we don't care when they die.

*Spoiler warning*

Did anyone else notice that the basic premise doesn't make much sense? If it was the husband who freaked out and killed everyone and then himself in a fit of rage why does he not make an appearance in the movie? Shouldn't he be the main pissed off ghost in the house? The only reason for his absence I can see is that the Japanese don't seem to think adult males are very scary, apparently only young women with long creepy hair over their faces and ghostly little children can terrify audiences.

*End Spoilers*

Basically, I just thought The Grudge was mediocre. It wasn't one of the worst films I've seen or anything but it was very forgettable, I doubt I will remember even having seen this in a year."

Having enjoyed the original ( eventhough it was not spectacular ) I liked this version also ....

First off, this is the third time the filmmaker has made this movie, and while there are differences ( subtle to major ), I could see how he might be losing some fire for the story ....... It is slow ( which I like ) and will never be confused for an "action" film, which, unfortunately, is so prevelant in horror today ..........

As a horror fan, I feel it is important to be able appreciate a film without, for example, the onslaught of shitty heavy metal music , and I certainly welcome the film that does not try to soften ( an already nonexistant ) blow with the use of humor .... THE GRUDGE did neither, which is certainly welcome in my book, however, a film needs more that what it doesn't do .....

As in the original, the little boy was done in a very "play" -like manner in that he was just painted white, and done as if it was a live performance ..... and I liked that .... I hate CGI period, but none of the ( minimal ) effects in THE GRUDGE bothered me - they were basically non-existent, non-distracting, and they were ceratinly not relied upon .....

Unlike the recent remakes of DAWN OF THE DEA and TEXAS CHAINSAW MASSACRE, this film did not come across as if it were directed by someone who was under pressure to make an action film .... It is a ghost story, and the PG13 rating did not hurt it : everything that needed to be shown was shown ....... I liked it, and although this nor the original are not in the league of some of the other films to come out Japan or Korea in recent history, I recommed seeing it .......

Well, I loved it. I haven't seen the original yet so I'll withhold judgement on whether it's better until I do but I thought it was great. The noise the woman was making got really irritating though and when you're with someone who decides to start making that very same noise on the way out.....things got a little interesting then.

Next up SAW!

No problem, I've found most of the girls who squeal in theatres are between the ages of 12 and 16 and wear sparkly lipgloss.

I'm glad someone else got a Darkness Fall vibe too, I think it was mostly the way the hair monster lifted people and carried them off, and it was all long and floaty and CGI'd all to hell.

Hmmm, well I definitely saw the Dawn remake as an action movie but that's just me...

Onto The Grudge. Well just to correct this - "First off, this is the third time the filmmaker has made this movie". It's actually the fifth time that he has made it. There were two television versions made before the theatrical versions.

Anyway, I enjoyed it but I can't argue with any of the criticisms that have been thrown at it here. I would advise people to check out one of the originals though (especially the first tv version) as it seems to me that most of the problems with the remake came from translating it to US audiences. Firstly the pace was quickened up quite considerably. This led to the jump scares feeling cheap and repetitive. The previous versions do use jump scares but have such a large build up that the build itself becomes the more important part and creates an exceptionally tense atmosphere. This was lost in the remake. I suspect they thought the slower pace of the originals wouldn't play well to US audiences. The other effect of this is that there were so many instances of people hearing sounds and then following them that it got repetitive to the point where it started to be funny.

In terms of the structure, moving back and forth, again this was a remnant from the originals which consisted of mini-stories each following a different character. The sections were clearly divided with title cards. This was dropped in the remake because they seemed to follow a central character (Gellar) which would have been tricky in the normal Ju-on format. This led to the jumping around.

And then there is this - "Yeah the gas can scene made me want to get up and leave right then."

The need to destroy the house and make a hero out of someone was entirely concocted for the remake. It was clearly a device added so that US audiences had someone to rally around which was why you were disappointed with the result. Fact is, we learn right at the very start of the movie about the way the curse works and destroying the house would have achieved nothing. This was a cheap addition for the US need for a hero and the reactions to it seems to have proven them right, which I personally find a little odd.

But I'd advise people to check out the previous Ju-on films. They are similar, obviously, but better as they don't have these flaws.

Dogg.

Well, of course, that's still no guarantee that you'll like the originals! I can see Nivek's point as I did go through a similar experience with Vanilla Sky, hoping that the original version would be better. I was disappointed.

But, yeah, I do feel that many problems with The Grudge came from, sometimes quite subtle, tweaks for a US audience. But, if you were to watch one of the originals to compare, I'd recommend trying to track down a copy of the original tv v-cinema version of Ju-on. It's got probably the most variety in it and, in my opinion, is the most successful. I'm not sure there's a legit subbed version in existence but there are dvd copies subbed by Cannibal King floating around and they are very nice indeed.

Dogg.

Liked it. It had a great feeling of dread throughout with some good scares mixed in. Good Halloween movie, especially if you like Asian horror. 7/10

Me I like every horror film. I even liked Darkness falls ( but i wont watch it again).

The grudge has really good element in it. I was scared a few times and jumped scare a lot. What people said against it, is pretty good criticisim.

But ask a 15 years old if it was unoriginal, what do you think he will say ? They don't have a lot of horror in them . Most of the feedback from youngsters is pretty good.

I really enjoyed it. I like diversity in horror . I am a fan of horror and i apreciate all of them.

Sorry again for this lame writing.

Ditto. It doesn't have any of the intelligence and depth of the original, and for all intents and purposes, it's two hours of dumb zombie carnage. It's relatively fun, but still, it's just a bit empty.

Floyd, when I use the phrase "action", I don't necessarily mean not worthwhile ... I liked the DAWN remake, and although there were many things about it that kept me from loving it, I will definitely watch it again as soon as the DVD arrives on Netflix ... TCM, on the other hand, felt good when I saw it ( with zero expectations ) in the theater, but fell flat when I watched it a few weeks ago ... Not coincidently, one of the things I didn't like about both films was the fact that there were just too many characters, with none of them connecting with me ...

For me, horror works best when it is slow, methodical and visual ... Some people like humor to set up their scares, some like consistant action, but I like to be lulled ... the payoff is always most effective ( for me ) when it is in contrast with what surrounds it ie AUDITON's Asami or the isolation ofTHE SHINING ... Asami is a softspoken, beautiful woman, and the fact that she has such an insane violent side is extremely effective, as is the tranquil solitude and minimal cast ofTHE SHINING ...

On a related note ... I know you enjoy and appreciate SUSPIRIA ( as I do ), and I understand you have been bored by the onslaught of Asian horror films, but if you haven't already, check ot TALE OF TWO SISTERS ... It's one of the only horror films that ever brought tears to my eyes, and the cimematography, sets and look is ( almost ) as stunning as SUSPIRIA ... elmie's highest rating

Oye!

Now that is a funny thing to say, I love Dawn, but I really fail to see any of that "intelligence and depth" in that movie. It's the story about 4 different people trying to survive the end of the world. Period.

And if you are talking about that weak social comment that people are avid consumers, well, I don't see that as intelligence or deep.

And let's not even get into their very weak and idiotic defence plan for the mall, and the needless death of Peter.

In a basic explanation, it's a meditation on our social needs for consuming, and how even as the apocalypse is happening, we're still likely to grasp onto a lot of shit that we don't need and even get fucking killed hanging on to stupid luxuries. Not to mention all the post-Nam symbolism there, our propensity for destroying ourselves, etc, etc.

Definitely not "week," in my opinion.

I thought the acting was terrible. Other than that it wasn't bad except for the spider walk down the stairs that seemed like a bit of a rip off from The Exorcist. I also noticed that a scene from the TV trailer wasn't in the actual film. The scene I speak of was of Michelle Gellar sitting in a tub turning around to see what was behind her. A cut scene for a PG13 rating?

Do you mean the part where she feels fingers in her hair and turns around? Besides that I don't remember any other bathroom scenes in the trailer.

That is exactly what I mentioned in my post, and no I don’t find that deep or particularly insightful (perhaps to some it could be), it is just a very easy social comment to make. And thanks for the typo correction Fett and taking the time to explain it in basic terms ^_^

As for the Grudge, I’ll rent it and make up my own mind.

Nope. She is sitting down in tub a turns around to se whats behind her.

SPOILER RIGHT AHEAD!!!!

I can't vouch for the remake, but the husband does make an appearence at the end of the original. In fact, he pretty much IS the ending. However, if the Americanised version has a happy ending, I can see why there would be no husband appearence.

Also, the very original movie (the first tv version) clearly shows the curse existing without his ghost at all, which adds a very nice twist to things that I can't mention for fear of spoiling it for someone.

For the most part, it's all about Kayako and Toshio in these movies.

Dogg.

Floyd, I believe it was made in 2002 ... I've got the region 3 two disc set, but unfortunately, the bonus disc ( w/ all the interviews ) isn't subtitled

I know I have heaped a bunch of praise on the film, and I do really love it ... but don't let me set your expectations too high ...

There are a number of things that set this film apart from the crop of other Asian horror films, but the one thing that is special is the cimematography ... the house in the film is shot as if it were a another character, much like the dance academy in SUSPIRIA ...

Good, scary, tense horror movies are slow.

And you know that... how? From your extensive library of japanese movies?

If you´re over nine, it shouldn´t be a problem. You wouldn´t even think about it.

Oh, good movies need a familiar cast, then?

Give me a break, you´re everything that´s wrong with the american audiences. You´re the exact reason movies are so shitty nowadays. Dumb, lazy movie-goers.

RIDDLED WITH SPOILERS........DON'T READ IF YOU DON'T WANT TO KNOW.....

This is an old thread by now, but I wanted to weigh in on the side of THE GRUDGE. I enjoyed it. It was a somewhat cheapened version of JU-ON but I expected that. After all an Amurrrrican audience couldn't possibly handle any ambiguity in the storytelling, nor could the film makers possibly move forward and backward in time to effectively tell a story lest Earl and Midge in Ohio pop a frickin' vein from having to think a little bit......SO, instead of just showing the man kill his wife for no apparent reason, then the symbolic death of the son (whose body was never found), they invent a college professor character with no purpose other than to say "Listen, I understand you as an audience are stupid, so let me hold your hand and I'll explain everything". It sickens me to note that American audiences are percieved as being unable to handle making up our own mind about whether the Kayoko character did anything to catalyze the husband's rage or whether she was completely innocent and he was just nuts. OHH HELL NO! We imbecilic, 86 I.Q. bearing individuals need a new character, a college professor, which Kayoko has a crush on, and the hubby finds her diary with the unsent declarations of love and kills her because of it, then kills his son. Ok, in JU-ON, you see the hubby grossly chewing at his bloody fingernails and reading what appears to be a diary, as the wife (dead or dying) lays in the background, then you see the hand of the husband reach out and snatch a black cat, then hear the animal's squeal as he kills it. See the difference? In the Japanese version, it isn't assumed that if it doesn't have exposed tits and an M-60 machine gun spitting fire that the audience will not pay attention enough to keep watching. It has a degree of confidense in its' audience. Hell, someone tell me why the little boy makes the cat noise early on in THE GRUDGE. It makes absolutely no sense, but watch the Japanese version where the cat symbolically IS the boy and it fits perfectly. Furthermore, kick the pace up quite a bit, take out all the slower, fog-like creepiness of JU-ON and add a stupid scene where Gellar is looking out a bus window in broad daylight and sees the face of Kayoko, and more of that type of least common denominator, red-herring type scare, and you have two things: A movie that's about one third as good as the original, and a gleaming example of how American horror audiences are perceived.

I agree with you that it is sad that American audiences are perceived as needing things dumbed down (Ryo Ishibashi explaining the entire plot on the rooftop to Gellar leaps to mind), but I just wanted to correct something here.

This stalking part was not invented for the remake (the FIRST original - Ju-On: The Curse) has Kayako lusting after Toshio's schoolteacher, keeping the diary, and so on. The results of this is a brutal scene of baby-smashing that I wish they'd had the balls to put in The Grudge - it's my favourite scene in any of the five films.

And to explain the rage thing - yes, Kayako was killed by an angry husband, but don't you think she'd be a bit pissed off at being killed, no?

THERE'S GONNA BE SPOILERS--------------------------------------

Thanks for the "correction". Allow me to retort. Bill Pullman's character in The Grudge was there for one reason: To jump off a balcony in the course of ham-fistedly making American audiences aware that Kayako was completely innocent. In Ju-On, there is no "professor", there's only a briefly glimpsed diary in a bloody room and a man chewing on his fingers after he'd killed his wife and child, then individuals start dying or dissappearing. Ju-On was a film about the evil, omnipotent phenomenon of these powerful and angry ghosts. It was comfortable leaving the backstory of Kayako to the imagination because it wasn't the focus of the film. The Grudge instead used Bill Pullman's character as a device to fill in the spaces for American audiences.

Though JUON: THE CURSE had Kayako being interested in Toshio's teacher, THE GRUDGE was made as a remake of JU-ON: THE GRUDGE and Pullman's character had no place in the story except for explaining the innocense of Kayako, something the same director had omitted entirely from JU-ON: THE GRUDGE. The upshoot in pacing and the meaningless scares (like the face on the bus window), combined with the "leave nothing to the imagination" screenwriting illustrate my point completely: This film was a sped up and dumbed down version of the original made to cover some perceived lack of attention span or intelligence in the American audience. It even says more than that: It suggests that American audiences are perceived to need a cut and dried morality in place in order to get behind a simple ghost story. Why else would it be so important to introduce a professor character with few lines and no other reason of existing than telling that Kayako didn't actually do anything?

As for the point you've made about the rage of Kayako, yes, she was very much a pissed off ghost. Interesting to note though that in JU-ON, the final character ran into the husband instead of Kayako, whereas in America, Gellar runs into a somewhat familiar looking white Japanese lady with her hair pulled over one eye.

As for my favorite scenes in any of the series of JU-ON films, I'd have to place the birth in JU-ON 2: THE GRUDGE 2 and the hallway spectre in JU-ON: THE GRUDGE at the top of the list. My feeling is that the director improved with each film (with the exception of JU-ON: THE CURSE 2, which is my least favorite of the 5 films) up until he slipped back a bit on the American version of THE GRUDGE. I think JU-ON: THE GRUDGE is the best of them all, followed closely by JU-ON 2: THE GRUDGE 2.

EOD so you say you enjoyed this film?

Yeah, I enjoyed THE GRUDGE. I enjoyed JU-ON: THE GRUDGE and JU-ON2: THE GRUDGE 2 more though, and the only film of the 5 that was weaker than the American version was perhaps JU-ON: THE CURSE 2. I think THE GRUDGE was shot with a bit more visual style than some of the earlier films, but the overall impact was less.

Ah, I'm afraid I have to disagree - The Grudge clearly included shots from Ju-On: The Curse, so I don't think it could be called a direct remake of Ju-On: The Grudge...I think it was a good call to include the strongest storyline of the Ju-On films, being the teacher-stalking.

I don't quite grasp how you think the Pullman character indicated Kayako's innocence - if anything, to me it proved the opposite: that she was gearing up to cheat on her husband. Without that, she just seems like the innocent victim of a psycho husband.

The husband appearing at the close of Ju-On: The Grudge was two-fold - (1) it was because the lead girl (whose name escapes me) had realised Kayako was herself a victim (through a sequence of flashbacks showing Kayako as a 'normal' woman, ie not a scary made-up killer), so Kayako backed down and the husband had to step in to finish the job. And (2) it was a realisation for viewers of Ju-On: The Curse that now, after being slain by Kayako, the husband is also a ghost, too now...

The Pullman character served a greater purpose - if he was in a scene alive, it was a flashback to the past, as we saw him die in the first few seconds of the film. This simplifies the time-hopping storyline for American audiences so they don't lose where they are. The Japanese originals didn't need such a crutch.

Well, Stroppy,
I'm including your whole post out of laziness. I will deal with each thing you've brought up one by one.
First off, If a woman is "gearing up to cheat" on her husband, that doesn't mean she's guilty. Last time I checked, actually doing something made you guilty, not thinking about it. Secondly, teacher stalking means going to class and writing a diary??? You apparently have a problem or some kind of shared experience that puts that twist on the film. Thirdly, Bill Pullman's character indicated Kayako's innocence in the fact that SHE DIDN'T DO ANYTHING. That is the definition of innocence, and lad, I dare say, SHE WAS THE INNOCENT VICTIM OF HER PSYCHO HUSBAND. That's clear, that is unless you believe that husbands murdering their wives (and child) are justifiable in any circumstance.
As far as the husband's showing to menace the final character in JU-ON:THE GRUDGE, I think that's a biiiiiiiiiig stretch what you're saying, and again, has more to do with your view of women than an accurate depiction of the film. There are no narrative clues in the film that support your point whatsoever. By the way, Kayako didn't kill the husband. It was stated that they found his body in the street outside, as was clearly explained in JU-ON: THE GRUDGE. But see, he died in a rage also, so he's inside the GRUDGE phenomenon too.

As for the last paragraph of your post, I don't understand what you're trying to say. It seems that you're agreeing with me in that the Pullman character was there for the purpose of filling in the spaces for American audiences, and that the Japanese versions needed none of this exposition. Also, you can't deny that THE GRUDGE was a direct remake of JU-ON: THE GRUDGE. Much of the movie is a shot by shot remake for the most part.

You're missing my point - I'm not justifying the husband's murder, of course not. But without the diary, we have no motivation for her killing and as far as we know, he just killed her for no reason at all. So, whilst I agree she is innocent, we seem to be at issue on what no information means...I think no information implies the husband was a total psycho, you're saying that no information implies that he had some justifiable reason for killing her.

And the stalking is from Ju-On: The Curse - where Kayako kept the diary about Toshio's teacher. Hence, not a direct remake of Ju-On: The Grudge, it's a storyline from a different film. In fact, whole shots were from The Curse - Bill Pullman looking out the window while Toshio meowed behind him (below), the jawbone sequence, etc etc. so it is a blend of the two films. See?



Watch Ju-On: The Grudge again. As Kayako advances on the girl, there is a series of flashbacks, showing Kayako in scenes from the movie, but NOT IN HER KILLER MAKE-UP. Instead, she is portrayed as a normal woman. Clearly this is indicating some understanding on the girl's part of Kayako's victim status. Kayako then backs off! And in comes the husband...

He is quite clearly killed by Kayako in Ju-On: The Curse. Yes, in the street. She crawls out of some plastic sheeting in some rubbish bins shortly after he has killed the teacher's wife and unborn child. Hence the big shock of him appearing as a ghost as well in Ju-On: The Grudge (although it is implied he may be a ghost during Ju-On: The Curse 2)

I am agreeing with you, but disagreeing with his precise role. I do see it as clarifying the time-jumping for American audiences and creating an overall plot arc, rather than as simply indicating some kind of innocence on Kayako's behalf.

And I do deny the 'direct remake' charge, for the reasons listed above. Then again, Ju-On: The Grudge was partially a remake of Ju-On: The Curse with the social worker arriving at the house being a close echo of the teacher's arrival in the original TV film.

[QUOTE=mr_stroppy]You're missing my point - I'm not justifying the husband's murder, of course not. But without the diary, we have no motivation for her killing and as far as we know, he just killed her for no reason at all. So, whilst I agree she is innocent, we seem to be at issue on what no information means...I think no information implies the husband was a total psycho, you're saying that no information implies that he had some justifiable reason for killing her.

And the stalking is from Ju-On: The Curse - where Kayako kept the diary about Toshio's teacher. Hence, not a direct remake of Ju-On: The Grudge, it's a storyline from a different film. In fact, whole shots were from The Curse - Bill Pullman looking out the window while Toshio meowed behind him (below), the jawbone sequence, etc etc. so it is a blend of the two films. See?"------Mr. Stroppy



Let me summarize the two films (JU-ON: THE GRUDGE and THE GRUDGE).


First, JU-ON: The Grudge:

Volunteer social worker gets a job thrust upon her, goes to a house where a creepy, near comatose old lady is living in squalor. She cleans the joint up and in runs upon a little boy taped into a closet. Soon afterward, the old lady starts freaking out and the social worker girl beholds a full black apparition that kneels over the old woman then stares over to her, causing her to faint.

The corresponding scene from THE GRUDGE:
Spunky social worker Sarah Michelle Gellar gets a job to go to a house where a creepy, near comatose old lady is living in squalor. She cleans the joint up and runs upon a little boy taped into a closet. Soon afterward, the old lady starts freaking out and Gellar beholds a full black apparition that kneels over the old woman then stares at her.

I could talk about the Cleo Duval character seeing the cat on the stairs and the white hands picking it up, and the husband of Cleo Duval finding her looking terrified and perhaps dying then seeing Toshio making cat noises, or the sister getting a call from her brother to let her into the building, then immediately her own doorbell rings, she looks out and he's gone. The phone starts making the click noise and she locks the door and gets in bed, we see bottom of bed rising, then she gets snatched by a very creepy woman under the covers. Then there's the guy watching the surveillance video of the black spectre moving along the corridor, then the ghost comes up into the frame of the camera and looks at the guy (JU-ON's version was better). There are more.

It pretty much goes on with that level of similarity, with the exception of the retired cop character and his daughter and her three friends, all of which are absent in THE GRUDGE. Oh, then I could note the name of the American version which, oddly enough, is THE GRUDGE.

I don't see how you can deny that 75% of THE GRUDGE was a damned near shot for shot remake of JU-ON: THE GRUDGE. Ok, so there was a sliver of a subplot from JU-ON: THE CURSE, the rest was pure JU-ON: THE GRUDGE.

As for the point regarding the Guilt/Innocense of Kayako: My stance has always been that in JU-ON:THE GRUDGE, you saw the husband perusing the diary while you see blood and Kayako, dead or nearly so, half wrapped in plastic. The husband killed her, then killed the cat (Toshio by proxy, the way I see it, as the reoccurrances with Toshio and black cats and his cat squeal would suggest). It doesn't matter whether she's cheated on him or not, whether she's stalked a teacher or not. He reads diary, he kills wife. The narrative starts there and doesn't linger on the backstory. I'm not going to argue the 'deservedness' of Kayako's fate. Narratively, if she hadn't done anything, the anger is perhaps more called for, but overall the director decides not to focus on that aspect much at all. His point is pissed off ghost, spreading the GRUDGE to all it contacts, killing them or making them disappear. In this story, Bill Pullman, or the teacher, are completely vestigual, and might I add, absent altogether. Bill Pullman, while shining a reference to JU-ON: THE CURSE, is there to show that, y'know, she had a big crush on the guy, but it was innocense in the sense that they never had sex, nor did she touch him or kiss him, etc. etc. The husband reads her diary where she writes about her feelings, can't stand that she feels that way for someone other than himself, and in a somewhat prolonged fit of passion, sends Kayako to the next life. Bill Pullman's character in THE GRUDGE was there to flesh out the fact that Kayako never touched the guy, and her love was unrequited fancy, like a 15 year old girl and the skinny guy du jour on the cover of Teen-Beat magazine. I also don't think the point was that the husband was a rational man and she caused her own death by writing about something. As much as it pisses me off, I think Pullman's character was there to hammer home the "lack of consummation", therby which, the numbnuts American audience can morally get behind the event of THE GRUDGE as an innocent's revenge, at least at first. I really think it was that sterilized and contrived.

I wouldn't mind continuing this discussion, but I have to work in 7 hours so it will have to be another night.

By the way, lest I be misunderstood, I'm not insulting American moviegoing audiences, I'm a member of that group. I am saying I think that the preconception does exist that to make a big gross in America, you'll do better not to try to make us think very much, or do anything unexpected unless it's a meaningless red-herring jump scare.