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HOUSE OF FLYING DAGGERS-Pre Release Discussion

post #1 of 30
10/26/04 at 9:38pm
Thread Starter 


Yimou Zhang’s Attempt to be Ang Lee

At the U.S. premiere at the 2004 New York Film Festival of Yimou Zhang’s new martial arts follow up to Hero, he said before the movie that he was concerned to have a bamboo scene in this film, due to his appreciation for the amazing scene in Ang Lee’s Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. He didn’t want to copy that scene. It’s too bad that House of Flying Daggers seems to be trying to duplicate Lee in more ways than one.

Members of the House of Flying Daggers take from the rich and give to the poor, like Robin Hood. The government wants them dead for this. The dead leader of the Flying Daggers has a blind daughter. When a blind courtesan tries to attack the General, Leo, they think she’s the daughter and arrest her. Leo busts her out, because he says he’s against the government too. Is he there to help get her home? Is he in cahoots with the government?

House of Flying Daggers has more twists and turns than Hero, and more moles and double agents than Infernal Affairs. By the end, what Zhang tries to pass off as deep seeded feelings and relationships, just becomes a laughable mess. He’s obviously trying to copy the emotional and romantic relationships that work so well in Crouching Tiger, but the plot is too complicated to be pulled off effectively.

Despite the convoluted storyline, the action scenes are pretty amazing, as well as the sound. The bamboo scene may not upstage the one in Crouching Tiger, but it sure is action packed. Unfortunately, by the end, the action gets just as ridiculous as the plot, as certain characters supposedly die, but keep coming back to life. It reminded me of the sappy ending in Far and Away where Tom Cruise’s character woke up after the camera panned out like he was dead. And the snow scene seems like a poor man’s version of the brilliant finale in Kill Bill: Volume 1.

Instead of sticking to his highly praised remarkable dramatic films—most starring his long-time ex-girlfriend and stunning actress Gong Li, like Raise the Red Lantern and Shanghai Triad—Yimou Zhang seems to be trying to reach a larger U.S. audience with his new affliction for making martial arts extravaganzas. While his dramatic films won awards and were highly praised by critics, none ever enjoyed the success of Crouching Tiger.

Crouching Tiger cost an estimated $15 million and made $128 million. Hero, a much better film than Flying Daggers, cost double and only pulled in $52 million to date*. While the box office numbers almost double the cost, it’s just too bad Miramax, after Harvey Scissorhands got a hold of it and cut it up, couldn’t market Hero to a greater success.


Now with Flying Daggers, Zhang’s films are becoming like a Hollywoodized version of good Chinese cinema—more glitz than story and mood. The costumes and settings are too bright and colorful, making them seem unrealistic. While he went a bit overboard in Hero, the visual style of that film, the fact that most of it was a story, worked.


*Numbers are US estimates only to date, according to imdb.com
http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0190332/business
http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0299977/business



Recommended Alternatives: Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon; Hero; Raise the Red Lantern; Shanghai Triad; Ju Dou; Farewell My Concubine; Kill Bill: Volume 1; Seven Samurai; Mishima: A Life in Four Chapters; Big Trouble in Little China

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ARTICLE on Carlito's Way Prequelitis (Yes that's right, a prequel is in the works)

“We're about to make film history, right here on videotape.”—Jack Horner, Boogie Nights
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post #2 of 30
10/27/04 at 6:56am
Never seen A Touch Of Zen have you ?

There's been a real backlash against this picture for some reason, mostly by people "hearing" it's had a bad reception. Yet every single person I know who's seen it in the London distribution community and a fair few critics (Devin included) have said it's an overall improvement on Hero. And I think I agree. It's certainly a fuller, more robustly narrativised and a less langurous affair (though Hero is still stunning to look at).

A little Hollywoodized, maybe. Which may account for the "buzz", probably from mainland China's critics who are wary of the US influence.

But I believe that's all hot air.

To criticise an Asian wuxia picture for being convoluted, over complicated and melodramatic is to have never really got an Asian wuxia picture, Hero included (or read any asian literature, from what I understand).

To be honest, I get as irritated of folk thinking any big budget martial arts picture is a copy of Crouching Tiger... as some folk do with The Matrix apparently inventing slowmotion tracking shots. The real similarity is that both Lee and Yimou came from a more formalized art cinema background and wanted to create paens to the great masters of cinema like King Hu. There have been countless pictures in the 70s and 80s from Woo Ping, Wong Kar Wai, Donny Yen that have all the same experimental/melodrama/wuxia elements that ...Daggers, Hero and Crouching Tiger... have.

Quote:
obviously trying to copy the emotional and romantic relationships that work so well in Crouching Tiger...
That's absurd since Crouching Tiger... is based on a vast, multi-part, 19th century series of novels. And it wasn't the first picture to base itself on Chinese literature. It's as ridiculous a statement as saying that any picture based on an ancient text is automatically negated because The Ten Commandments was a great picture and all following are merely Xeroxing it wholesale.

Quote:
too bright and colorful, making them seem unrealistic.
You're joking, right ? Hyperealism is one of the basic tenets of wuxia pictures. They also flout the laws of gravity -- should that be held against them too ?

...Daggers is an amazing (or depending on your personal agenda, a very fine) artistic achievement, a sweeping yet intimate and moving drama (it's a 4-character chamber piece for 75% of its running time) and (I suspect thogh I don;t know the final list and it was certainly in contention) China's entry into the Oscars this year. Some "failure"...
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post #3 of 30
10/27/04 at 7:27am
I saw it on DVD yesterday.
I find them to be about even, with a slight advantage to Hero.

I know Devin talked about it being a bit distanced and cold, but I found it to be more emotional than HoFD. I also love the performances by Jet Li (it's great to see him in something really good) and Tony Leung.
Other than the comparison with Hero, I more or less agree with Devin's review.
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post #4 of 30
10/27/04 at 8:23am
I can't really comment on the film as I haven't seen it but I don't think many of those film critics have a deep knowledge of wuxia films Strax. CTHD is probably their only exposure and I doubt they would classify it as a wuxia film just another martial arts film kicked off by CTHD.

I think their critiscism's come from not having a knowledge of that genre so they see these movies as melodramatic and over emotional, I think it may also have something to do with the asian culture where they embrace melodrama whereas in the west, it's looked down on.
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post #5 of 30
10/27/04 at 8:35am
I just watched this last night. As an american who's knowledge of "good" Asian cinema is based off of CTHD and HERO, I thought that House of Flying Daggers was almost as good as CTHD and better than Hero. Maybe that's the commercialist in me.

House of Flying Daggers is better paced than Hero, and won't put you to sleep when waiting for the next action scene.

My wife liked the story of House of Flying Daggers but thought the ending was overly dramatic. I told her to think about Romeo and Juliet and compare the two.

again this is just my opinion.
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post #6 of 30
10/27/04 at 10:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon Ma
I can't really comment on the film as I haven't seen it but I don't think many of those film critics have a deep knowledge of wuxia films Strax. CTHD is probably their only exposure and I doubt they would classify it as a wuxia film just another martial arts film kicked off by CTHD.

I think their critiscism's come from not having a knowledge of that genre so they see these movies as melodramatic and over emotional, I think it may also have something to do with the asian culture where they embrace melodrama whereas in the west, it's looked down on.

Oh for sure D, but it's also a very poor critic (and this is a review not a message board post, quite clearly) who doesn't have any resonable concept or at the very least a history of the genre of a picture he's reviewing. Is it fine for them to review a "mere" action picture as derivative because they don't know the genre ? Would they dare review the work of Dreyer or Bergman and claim it to be slow and lethargic due not informing themselves of the type of cinema those two execute ? Of course not.

We're not talking about giving a free pass to The Princess Diaries because it's light hearted escapist fayre. We're talking about reviewing a genre of picture without prior research, using sweeping statements like "obviously trying" which people will read into as informed criticism.

In most analytical fields, one truism stands unmoved: context is all. Ansd it's the job of the reviewer to place a picture he's casting judgement on in that context, be it The Princess Diaries, Scary Movie, The Passion Of Joan Of Arc or Drunken Master

The simple truth is, if they're not doing that they're not doing their job properly. It's lazy.
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post #7 of 30
10/27/04 at 11:10am
That's a good point, I hadn't thought of it that way.
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post #8 of 30
10/27/04 at 11:13am
Which is why I was so pleased that Dev was so full of praise even though he's not shithot gay for all things Asian. He just thought about his review.
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post #9 of 30
10/27/04 at 6:12pm
I've only seen bits and pieces of this so far, but it looks really friggin good. The fight scenes seem to be more down and dirty than Hero, especially the last match between Kaneshiro and Lau. I'm putting this on my next order to dddhouse.
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post #10 of 30
11/6/04 at 1:30pm
I also thought this was much better than Hero - it has a much more involving story and characters, the fights seem less like setpieces and are better integrated in the story, and there's more Yiyi on screen so I'm even more in love with her now.
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post #11 of 30
11/29/04 at 8:24pm
watched it on import DVD today. I still prefer Hero (Tony Leung and Maggie Cheung are just so good in it), but it is pretty damn fine nonetheless. the only probs I had was the slow start: I didn't care that much for the Echo game at first, but I have a feeling that might be better once I see the movie again, since I now know its significance later on in the flick. Also, the atrocious CGI snow at the end of the movie kind of annoyed me. I liked the CGI daggers, but the snow (when it was whipping around the leads' faces) look so damn fake it nearly took me out of the movie. but those are really the only things I didn't like. but fo some reason I still prefer Hero.
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post #12 of 30
11/30/04 at 1:26am
I think it's pretty damn kickass and sexy, more hot blooded than HERO. It's a bit more commercial than HERO in that it doesn't necessarily have an imperialist theme, but no less enjoyable.
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post #13 of 30
11/30/04 at 4:34am
Big Wuxia/Tony Ching Siu Tung fan so I can't wait to see this.
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post #14 of 30
12/2/04 at 3:07am
I loved Hero and Crouching Tiger and have been waiting on this for a while now. Will be seeing it soon.
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post #15 of 30
12/2/04 at 5:40am
It's a great movie. Zhang Ziyi can carry as many movies as she likes. Thank Chan she isn't trying to go all American.
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post #16 of 30
12/9/04 at 7:31pm
This movie is SO visually stunning. I'm looking forward to seeing it when it finally comes here.
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post #17 of 30
12/10/04 at 5:41am
http://www.inform.umd.edu/News/Diamo...versions2.html
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post #18 of 30
1/3/05 at 4:20pm
Just got back from seeing this in a cinema packed with people wanting to see an action movie......

The finale is what wu shu is about.

I would also say the Mei and Wind fighting the soldiers in the field, the bamboo fight and the final duel all exceed Hero's scenes.....

I just saw this movie and can say that it is the best film I have seen in a long time. The story is brilliantly done, and stripping a lot of the chinese traditional elements really helps the film. Films like Crouching Tiger, Hero and Once Upon A Time in China all suffered due to the fact you needed to have some knowledge of the chinese honour and caste system. This was merely a straight love story. I also think that not having Doyle doing the cinematography was possibly a good idea, as while In the Mood for Love and Hero are incredible to look at they both lose a little depth in other areas thanks to a focus on image. Hero was beautiful through it's images. Flying Daggers is just beautiful.

Plus the final fight where they are practically brawling was so cool. Who needs Kung Fu when you can just batter each other.

Hell I even didn't mind the plot twists and thought the way the battle between the Flying Daggers and the government was handled was brilliant.

Takeshi Kaneshiro (Jin/Wind) deserves to become a big star after this movie.
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post #19 of 30
1/15/05 at 12:42am
just finally opened in Columbus today the 14th of Jan

Liked it better than Hero, more realistic in a CTHD kind of way, and this from someone that didnt mind the political ideal behind Hero

Much better pacing, and action that you are more emotinally involved in sealed it for me beating Hero

also Ziyi Zhang is on the screen 80% of the movie which kinds of destracts the eye from the scenenry

also kudos to Sony for handling this better than Miramax, which I am more than sure will carry to the DVD
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post #20 of 30
1/15/05 at 3:20am
I finally got to see this and I thought it was excellent. Visually, the movie is stunning, there are so many color palettes, from the opulence of the brothel to the outdoors, the field, the bamboo forest, it all looks so ravishing.
Although, Yimou has given us a far more focused plot and storyline, I just didn't find any emotional connection like I did with Hero. Don't get me wrong, it was well written and acted but it just didn't equal the emotional reaction I got from hearing Maggie Cheung's piercing scream at the end of Hero.
I've never been much of a ZZ fan but she's very impressive here, her movement's as a blind person are dead-on especially while she's fighting, she'll pause to assess her environment. Takeshi Kaneshiro and ZZ actually have chemistry and it makes their performances that much stronger. Andy Lau is the weak link unfortunately as his character arc isn't as fleshed out, he performs admirably but his character is underwritten.
I couldn't help but feel I was watching a King Hu movie without the intrigue, it feels far more personal but the swordfights look like they could've come right out of A Touch of Zen or Come Drink with Me, this is evident in the bamboo forest scene, it was more than a little familiar.
Aside from a few problems I have regarding the plot, some of it doesn't make sense to me, it's an excellent film.
Also like to mention, the 'lovers' theme at the end was suitably haunting, it was great as was the memoriam for Anita Mui. A nice touch.
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post #21 of 30
1/15/05 at 11:53am
Funny I got the DVD on Thursday from China and the movie comes out here the day after :\

So me and my dad and 3 friends are going on Sunday, not gonna watch the DVD. Just gonna wait.
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post #22 of 30
1/15/05 at 3:58pm
Bought this a couple of months ago on DVD after seeing the trailer in front of an Oldboy showing i went to and i must say i do prefer it to Hero. HoFD story i preferred, whilst Hero's was engaging i prefer to feel as if i'm watching the story unfold as opposed to Hero's 'this is what happened.........or is it?' kind of approach. The visuals of this film are simply gorgeous and whilst a tad melodramatic the ending worked for me, especially the jealousy of Andy Lau's character. I actually believed this guy had that feeling inside him and that's what bought it for me, i enjoyed his performamce the most in this film.
Didn't care much for the love scenes in the actual sense of 'let's watch ZZ smooch with a guy and reject him whilst breathing heavily'. There was just something that bothered me about those scenes.
In terms of CTHD i'd say HoFD is almost on par with that for my taste. Definitely one to watch.
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post #23 of 30
1/16/05 at 2:42am
Saw it tonight. Good flick. Melodramatic and ridiculously over-the-top in the action scenes, but that's exactly the language of wuxia cinema. Notice the final battle between Leo and Jin drops all the wire-fu artifice for a rather brutal beat-down, with the combatants using choke-holds, kidney punches, and grapples and culminating in the only real blood-letting we see in the film.

Hero and Daggers are both drop-dead gorgeous, if asked to compare the two I enjoyed the cinematography in this movie better. Hero looks like the director was playing around with the Digital Color Grading tech like a couple of ten-year-olds given the keys to a Land Rover. Daggers is more restrained in its use of color while still using the palette to convey meaning and mood, and in a bolder way than any Hollywood film. I see a cinematography nom in their future.
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post #24 of 30
1/16/05 at 3:31am
I agree on the brutal fight scene between Andy and Takeshi. At one point, Andy begins pounding Takeshi on the back HARD. Takeshi responds with a knee to the stomach. Andy even headbutts him at one point.
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post #25 of 30
1/16/05 at 3:15pm
I also loved the utilization of color in this film as well. It makes me wonder why when western filmmakers use color in their action films does it often comes off as being more of a comic or comedic "coloring book" effect?? On the other hand Asian filmmakers seem to use color in a more artistic manner. I've noticed the same with Anime as well.

Now don't get me wrong I do understand the comic/color feel of films such as Spiderman, Hulk etc but color in regular action films are rarely if ever added to heighten the senses of a scene. I just do not understand why it is not used more often. The films that do seem to use it besides the comic book adaptations seem to use color more in jest (Charlie's Angels, Fifth Element, etc) than to really artistically enhance the experience.
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post #26 of 30
1/16/05 at 10:54pm
The film was certainly pretty, but other than the visuals I was generally left cold. It's a very middle-of-the-road film for me.
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post #27 of 30
1/17/05 at 11:48am
I saw it yesterday (finally), and while I enjoyed it, I was confused by the end. I couldn't tell if the audience was meant to root for Jin or Leo. Of course, Mei makes the decision for us, but by the time the "snow" started, I was scratching my head. The Romeo and Juliet comment above makes sense, but still...I just wasn't sure how I was supposed to react. Had the decision been up to me, all would have died and then the snow would have fallen. Fade to white. Then black.

A lot of folks have commented on the color palette in this film versus that in Hero. I don't know if it was the fact that Hero obviously exaggerated colors and Daggers was more realistic, but many scenes felt very washed out to me. Examples include Jin in his dark blue against the white trees or the lovers in the field after they finish their romp. I didn't see the film in the best theatre, so it could be a projection issue, but it really struck me. This theatre also had the sound up WAY too high. As my friend quipped, Jin's fireside conversation with Mei sounded like Capt. Dolby ("Inform the Commander Lord Vader's shuttle has arrived.") from ROTJ while the rest of the film softened in placed.

I thought the Echo Game was amazing. The smile on Leo's face was priceless. I was completely sold because I got the impression the actors were truly enjoying what they were doing. And the "echo of the echo" in the bamboo forest was fun also if not as spectacular. ZZ is a luminous beauty (or should I say rare beauty?). I could watch her do just about anything and never lose interest.

Speaking of the forest, the costumes of the Dagger members reminded me of the old flick Super Ninjas (anyone know where to get that on DVD?) with it's color-coded by element gis.

As we left the theatre, my friend and I both agreed the story of Daggers was much more involving and that Hero, as commented above, was just a bunch of set pieces, but I still think I prefer Hero.

Bottom line: both films are excellent and worth viewing/owning.
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post #28 of 30
1/22/05 at 6:56am
House of Flying Daggers was ultimately a disappointment to me. My expectations were so high coming off of Hero that perhaps I'm being a little unfair. HoFD had several terrific scenes, but it never became more than a sum of its parts, and I think it unraveled at the end. I believe I read on imdb that one of the actress for one of the main roles died before filming, leading the director to write her character out of her scenes rather than recast the role. Perhaps this is why the last act felt so awkward to me.

One another major disappointment for me was the music. Hero had that amazing violin track by Yitzhak Perlman and the musical duel at the beginning is probably my favorite scene. The songs in HoFD seemed to be an attempt to return to that musical theme, but the soundtrack this time around didn't do anything for me.

Still, I'd say it's head and shoulders above your standard Hollywood fare and worth a look.
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post #29 of 30
2/5/05 at 6:38pm
Finally saw this on Thursday afternoon. I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who liked this movie more than Hero(which, for full disclosure, my memory of is made vague by being partially awake when I saw it). HOFD has the same beautiful artistic color palette as Hero, which I remember best about it, but also has a slightly clearer plotline. Trying to recall what happened in Hero while typing this, the plot escapes me but certain effects and images(the fight while leaping on the lake, the flames on the candles spinning around to hint at Jet Li's possible desire to assasinate the emperor, dueling in the rain while the guy plays that sitar-like thing, knocking those gray brick pillars down in that room) stay, while HOFD's undercover fu turned Shakespeare tragedy storyline AND its rainbow stay with me.

Stuff I liked: Mei's song. The Echo Game part with Mei playing Donkey Konga with her sleeves while the guy flicks Super Golden Crisp at the drums. The moment during Wind's saving of Mei when he flies between those two guards. Wind's badass archery skills, especially when he fires off those four arrows while running. The funny moment when Mei is touching Wind's face to know what he looks like and she drops to her knees in a moment from many movies I've seen a disturbing amount of times, to which Wind responds calmly(or maybe it just seems cool reading it as text on the screen), "Most women like to start up top, but you head right for the bottom!" or something along those lines. The neat trick of Wind hanging his machete from a tree to create that pinging noise so he can ogle bathing Mei. Mei busting out a freakin' hurricanrana. And later, to match her wrestling workrate, an elbow drop and headbutt being used in the Wind/Leo battle. The leaves falling to give away that the soldiers were hiding in the trees. The hum that the fired bamboo branches makes. The white birch trees. The all-green motif of the Daggers' hideout. And the beautiful fall color hills which reminded me of Vermont.

And the stuff I would say I didn't like thought and reading this thread has made me alright with. I was initially annoyed with the visual inconsistency of the way the forest seemed to shift between the full green of summer and an autumnal bloom. But at the point when it suddenly began to snow, I realized the movie's environments' relation to our world was supposed to be tenuous. And knowing now that a departure from reality is par for this genre makes me forgive the weird way those horses seem to be always on hand and Mei's arising from the snow. My other main complaint comes from the way the movie leaves us hanging on the fate of the Daggers. We have that scene of the number of soldiers approaching their hideout, but we don't find out if the Daggers were slaughtered or were able to fight them off. But I let it go because it got me thinking deep. If the Daggers were taken out, would that be debated by people as either a happy or sad ending? Comparing the movie to current events, would a modern Daggers be labelled as a terrorist organization for fighting against the government, albeit a very corrupt one, through violent means? And since we're told that they rob from the rich and give to the poor, that made me consider if a classic figure like Robin Hood would be dubbed an evildoer threat today. And a Commie to boot!
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post #30 of 30
2/5/05 at 8:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Filipino Elvis
My other main complaint comes from the way the movie leaves us hanging on the fate of the Daggers. We have that scene of the number of soldiers approaching their hideout, but we don't find out if the Daggers were slaughtered or were able to fight them off.
the true leader of the House was supposed to be revealed during the battle between government and the House. Anita Mui ( http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0611315/ ) was to portray the character but the highly respected actress -- in her homeland -- died of cervical cancer during production. Zhang Yimou decided, in honor of Ms. Mui, to drop the entire sequence rather than find a replacement. the film, however, was always more about Mei, Jin and Leo.
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