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Should Canada Indict Bush for War Crimes?

post #1 of 61
Thread Starter 
From The Toronto Star

Quote:
When U.S. President George W. Bush arrives in Ottawa — probably later this year — should he be welcomed? Or should he be charged with war crimes?

It's an interesting question. On the face of it, Bush seems a perfect candidate for prosecution under Canada's Crimes against Humanity and War Crimes Act.

This act was passed in 2000 to bring Canada's ineffectual laws in line with the rules of the new International Criminal Court. While never tested, it lays out sweeping categories under which a foreign leader like Bush could face arrest.

In particular, it holds that anyone who commits a war crime, even outside Canada, may be prosecuted by our courts. What is a war crime? According to the statute, it is any conduct defined as such by "customary international law" or by conventions that Canada has adopted.

War crimes also specifically include any breach of the 1949 Geneva Conventions, such as torture, degradation, wilfully depriving prisoners of war of their rights "to a fair and regular trial," launching attacks "in the knowledge that such attacks will cause incidental loss of life or injury to civilians" and deportation of persons from an area under occupation.

Outside of one well-publicized (and quickly squelched) attempt in Belgium, no one has tried to formally indict Bush. But both Oxfam International and the U.S. group Human Rights Watch have warned that some of the actions undertaken by the U.S. and its allies, particularly in Iraq, may fall under the war crime rubric.

The case for the prosecution looks quite promising. First, there is the fact of the Iraq war itself. After 1945, Allied tribunals in Nuremberg and Tokyo — in an astonishing precedent — ruled that states no longer had the unfettered right to invade other countries and that leaders who started such conflicts could be tried for waging illegal war.

Concurrently, the new United Nations outlawed all aggressive wars except those authorized by its Security Council.

Today, a strong case could be made that Bush violated the Nuremberg principles by invading Iraq. Indeed, U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan has already labelled that war illegal in terms of the U.N. Charter.

Second, there is the manner in which the U.S. conducted this war.

The mistreatment of prisoners at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison is a clear contravention of the Geneva Accord. The U.S. is also deporting selected prisoners to camps outside of Iraq (another contravention). U.S. press reports also talk of shadowy prisons in Jordan run by the CIA, where suspects are routinely tortured. And the estimated civilian death toll of 100,000 may well contravene the Geneva Accords prohibition against the use of excessive force.

Canada's war crimes law specifically permits prosecution not only of those who carry out such crimes but of the military and political superiors who allow them to happen.
I know there's almost no chance of this happening, but with that being said, I'm certain the welcome Bush receives here will be far from friendly. If he addresses parliament, there's a good chance the NDP caucus will walk out or perhaps MPs will heckle as was done with Reagan. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the more left-leaning BQ members will do the same. As well, I'll definately be on the streets to greet my favourite president if he visits Quebec or Ontario.
post #2 of 61
I'd like to see the Canadians try and arrest President Bush. We need to bomb a more peaceful country to show Findland and New Zealand not to fuck with us.
post #3 of 61
You'd like to see it happen so we can bomb Canada?
post #4 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Matchstick
You'd like to see it happen so we can bomb Canada?
Those canucks are an uppity bunch. They need to be taken down a few notches.
post #5 of 61
Pretty cool idea. Unfortunately the U.S administration would likely take it as an act of war.
post #6 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anyawatchin Angel
Those canucks are an uppity bunch. They need to be taken down a few notches.
Even if you're being sarcastic, this is still pretty stupid.
post #7 of 61
damn is Ottawa going to suck to live in when he shows up. I think we should arrest him, but nor for War Crimes but for possesing WMD's.
post #8 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Van Jones
Pretty cool idea. Unfortunately the U.S administration would likely take it as an act of war.
There would be a war the minute some Canadian Copper touches Bush. But I'd love to see someone putting Bush in his place.
post #9 of 61
We should do it, consequences be damned.
post #10 of 61
This article is outrageous. The Angry Left rages on.
post #11 of 61
I hope they send Terence & Philip to arrest him.
post #12 of 61
Canada should shut the fuck up and quietly enjoy the fact that we provide many of their citizens with things like jobs and access to decent medical care as soon as they realize the only way to get something done well or quickly is to come here.
post #13 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl Cunningham
I hope they send Terence & Philip to arrest him.
Actually, that might be worth seeing...
post #14 of 61
Uh, Dale, you might want to check the facts behind the medical care thing.
post #15 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale 'Grifter' Wicker
Canada should shut the fuck up and quietly enjoy the fact that we provide many of their citizens with things like jobs and access to decent medical care as soon as they realize the only way to get something done well or quickly is to come here.
Myopia, thy name is Dale.
post #16 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale 'Grifter' Wicker
Canada should shut the fuck up and quietly enjoy the fact that we provide many of their citizens with things like jobs and access to decent medical care as soon as they realize the only way to get something done well or quickly is to come here.
You're being sarcastic right?
post #17 of 61
Keep it coming, Dale. We know if you really rag on something, it must be right.
post #18 of 61
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale 'Grifter' Wicker
Canada should shut the fuck up and quietly enjoy the fact that we provide many of their citizens with things like jobs and access to decent medical care as soon as they realize the only way to get something done well or quickly is to come here.
I'm glad to see you express your vast knowledge of Canada in such an arrogant and condescending manner. You know, it's funny that I have to bike to Buffalo to get my bike fixed, because Canadians are so stupid and inefficient that we can't do it ourselves.

I think it's interesting to note that this is an article from a centrist, mainstream daily, not even from our weekly lefty paper.
post #19 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl Cunningham
Uh, Dale, you might want to check the facts behind the medical care thing.
very quick GOOGLE for 'canadian health care debacle' yielded these right off the bat:

Canada's Fatal Error and Loved to death

those are within the first 5. Not hard to research, perhaps you should look yourself instead of blindly bowing to the "universal healthcare is GOOD" gods.

Quote:
You're being sarcastic right?
Nope.

Quote:
Keep it coming, Dale. We know if you really rag on something, it must be right.
The vast majority of you would not know "right" if it bit you on your pink parts. Color me suprised.

Quote:

I'm glad to see you express your vast knowledge of Canada in such an arrogant and condescending manner.
Why? It seems to be the way things are done here on the boards now. I just thought I would play by the same rule book.
post #20 of 61
I hate it when someone pulls me in to EQUALBIAS.

Grifter, I'll agree that life for me is better in the US than it was in Canada.

But only because I'm loaded, baby.
post #21 of 61
Again, Grifter, coming from you it's a compliment.

But your sources are a rheumatology intern who posted his web article 3 years ago, and 'Capitalism Magazine.' Too much.
post #22 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by raoul duke
I think it's interesting to note that this is an article from a centrist, mainstream daily, not even from our weekly lefty paper.
Even mainstream papers include outrageous, fringe commentary.
post #23 of 61
What's outrageous about noting how we run afoul of the law? It's not as if the paper is making these things up out of thin air. Additionally damning: We've forced fleeing Iraqi civilians to return to Fallujah as it was under siege, which is a violation of the Geneva convention.
post #24 of 61
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Optimus Prime
Even mainstream papers include outrageous, fringe commentary.
...merely backed up by widely recognized international law.
post #25 of 61
Canadians have better women, period.
post #26 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nelson
Canadians have better women, period.
Amen.
post #27 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Micah Robinson
What's outrageous about noting how we run afoul of the law? It's not as if the paper is making these things up out of thin air. Additionally damning: We've forced fleeing Iraqi civilians to return to Fallujah as it was under siege, which is a violation of the Geneva convention.
You're right. Let the Canadians arrest Bush. Cheney will be acting President, which I'm sure is Canada's goal.

Maybe we could get ex-President Carter to organize Bush's rescue. Perhaps via helicopter?
post #28 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Optimus Prime
You're right. Let the Canadians arrest Bush. Cheney will be acting President, which I'm sure is Canada's goal.

Maybe we could get ex-President Carter to organize Bush's rescue. Perhaps via helicopter?
Huh, huh, and HUH?!?!

The point is that we've committed war crimes, but refuse to take responsibility for them. Whether Canada does something about it or not doesn't change that fact. Who then becomes President doesn't change that fact. Please stick to the topic at hand in the name of coherence.
post #29 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Micah Robinson
Huh, huh, and HUH?!?!

The point is that we've committed war crimes, but refuse to take responsibility for them. Whether Canada does something about it or not doesn't change that fact. Who then becomes President doesn't change that fact. Please stick to the topic at hand in the name of coherence.
I thought the topic at hand was Canada arresting Bush for war crimes. If it did, there would be consequences, one of which would be a new President. And President Cheney would be pissed, and that's a fact.
post #30 of 61
And so would you. Who cares? What about the war crimes themselves? Are you happy or indifferent that civilians are illegally being forced back into a siege zone?
post #31 of 61
If Bush somehow brings back the NHL, all will be forgiven.
post #32 of 61

Those are two excellent articles, Dale. Worth repeating the links here.
post #33 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Optimus Prime
The Angry Left rages on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anyawatchin Angel
Those canucks are an uppity bunch. They need to be taken down a few notches.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale 'Grifter' Wicker
Canada should shut the fuck up...
hmmm....
post #34 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Key Chung
hmmm....
would it have been better if I wished Dick Cheney a horrible death?
post #35 of 61
It couldn't hurt.

If it salves your fragile egos, I have no doubt the Toronto Sun is doing the editorial equivalent of adjusting its kneepads and applying its lipstick as we speak.
post #36 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anyawatchin Angel
Those canucks are an uppity bunch. They need to be taken down a few notches.
Yeah, us and our 'laws' and 'ethics.'

Edited to add a wink.
post #37 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anyawatchin Angel
would it have been better if I wished Dick Cheney a horrible death?
It would have allowed Prime's post not to fall with such a dull thud.

The bottom line, to me, is that there are international laws being broken in this war all the time, on both sides. The president is not above the law. Ain't nobody above an ass whuppin'.
post #38 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Key Chung
It would have allowed Prime's post not to fall with such a dull thud.

The bottom line, to me, is that there are international laws being broken in this war all the time, on both sides. The president is not above the law. Ain't nobody above an ass whuppin'.
But there is a 0% chance Bush or anyone will be charged with a war crime other than Saddam. The article is a fantasy. Next time I'll put a wink and a smile next to my sarcastic posts so Werewolf and Micah will know.
post #39 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anyawatchin Angel
But there is a 0% chance Bush or anyone will be charged with a war crime other than Saddam. The article is a fantasy.
I don't doubt it for a minute. I'm more interested in the mutually agreed upon strength of the Geneva Conventions. Sure Saddam deserves a trial for his actions. I wonder how much of his defense will be based on US' support for him during the Iran-Iraq War? See where I'm going with this?

Or, perhaps, Dubya's own actions, post 9-11. How badly can the US break international law before the world decides to crack some knuckles?
post #40 of 61
Quote:
This act was passed in 2000 to bring Canada's ineffectual laws in line with the rules of the new International Criminal Court. While never tested, it lays out sweeping categories under which a foreign leader like Bush could face arrest.

In particular, it holds that anyone who commits a war crime, even outside Canada, may be prosecuted by our courts. What is a war crime? According to the statute, it is any conduct defined as such by "customary international law" or by conventions that Canada has adopted.
A Sudanese man allegedly commits a war crime in lower Albania but they'll prosecute him in Canadian court should he have a stopover in Montreal. Incroyable.
post #41 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anyawatchin Angel
Next time I'll put a wink and a smile next to my sarcastic posts so Werewolf and Micah will know.
I repeat: even if you were being sarcastic, it's still a stupid sentiment to express.
post #42 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Key Chung
Or, perhaps, Dubya's own actions, post 9-11. How badly can the US break international law before the world decides to crack some knuckles?
That's a really good question, how far can the rest of the world be pushed? And what can the rest of the world really do?
post #43 of 61
Whatever do you mean micah?

Anya's post history is a textbook for reasoned and intelligent argument!
post #44 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Van Jones
That's a really good question, how far can the rest of the world be pushed? And what can the rest of the world really do?
They can go yo the UN and get angry, and write a letter telling the US how angry they are.
post #45 of 61
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Burke
A Sudanese man allegedly commits a war crime in lower Albania but they'll prosecute him in Canadian court should he have a stopover in Montreal. Incroyable.
And the US can overthrow governments, support fascists, fund death squads, etc. and there's no problem?
post #46 of 61
I see grifter and overlord are leading the charge of criticisms against universal health care. I can empathiseverlord is a self-described sociopath, so he isn't in to helping others; Grifter, the matyr, idolizes the accomplishments of great leaders like Hitler, Stalin, and Napoleon (but retains a "critical eye" when "considering" their methods) — clearly visionary leaders cannot found empires while chained to deadweight of an ethical society.
post #47 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anyawatchin Angel
... and write a letter telling the US how angry they are.
[insert joke about US literacy rates]
post #48 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by raoul duke
And the US can overthrow governments, support fascists, fund death squads, etc. and there's no problem?

We do that so Canada can have secure borders and cheap pharmaceuticals...

All for you baby...
post #49 of 61
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Burke
We do that so Canada can have secure borders and cheap pharmaceuticals...

All for you baby...
Gee thanks. I'm sure Canada would have otherwise been overrun by East Timorese marauders and Nicaraguan raiders.
post #50 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by raoul duke
I'm sure Canada would have otherwise been overrun by East Timorese marauders and Nicaraguan raiders.
You forgot about polar bears. Our military has protected you against that most evil of bears for quite some time now.
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