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Suicide Club Discussion

post #1 of 19
Thread Starter 
****************************MAJOR SPOILERS*********************************


I first saw SUICIDE CLUB about a year ago, and I REALLY liked it ... Since then, I bought the DVD and I've gotta say it is one of my all-time favorities ... Whether you like it or not, it is undoubtedly a thought-provoking and highly interesting film ...

Attempting to arrange thoughts and get concrete understanding of this film is as unlikely as a simple explanation as to why the kids on the telephone coughed when they spoke ... and I think it is safe to say that there is ALOT left up to interpretation ...

Having said that, there is an obvious onus on connection, and how it relates to the cycle of life : both to yourself, to family, linking generation to generation, etc ... and this presented what could be considered one of many contradictions that exist in life ... In fact, I feel that the film intentionally created these contradictions in part to get the viewer thinking ......

Was the pop group Dessart ( Desert, Desart, Dessrat ? ) in fact encouraging people to kill themselves, or, as I might believe, was the point of the band and the message a plea to love yourself that went awry ???
I might be wrong, but it seems as if director Sono was making a statement about Japanese culture, and the fact that in creating an onslaught of technology for the entire world, Japan has lost it's connection with itself - as seen in the faces on the subway riders, as proven by the endless stream of trends, etc etc .... Society has a connection with the world, yet has lost the connection with themselves ........... I am not certain of Dessart's motives though, because when Mitsuko is in the auditorium in front of the group of children, she is asked about her connection to herself, and if it exists like her "connection to you and me, victim and assailant" ( as spoken by the kid ) ....

There is alot to be read into the scenes and characters that involve different generations .... From example, after Kuroda discovers that the members of his family have all committed suicide, he is asked by the coughing voice "Why can't you feel other people pain as your own" ..... and I believe this is said at this moment because up until that point in the film, the deaths were considered "suicides", and it was not until his family died that the deaths were considered "murders" ( ie a person who suddenly doubts the existance of God when tragedy strikes them, eventhough tragedy happen to others all the time ) ....

I could go on and on about this film .... I would really like to read everyone's thoughts about it as I am still sorting out my understanding .... One of the things I am not sure about is, for example, the suicide of Mitsuko's boyfriend ( the Dessart fanatic who jumped from the building and landed on her ) .... He obviously figured out the "code" on the posters, and he met with the band ... His skin was also found in the roll ... Did everyone who commited suicide ( other than the group of schools kids on the roof, who were apparantly a mimic ) meet with the band / kids ???? ..... Was the skin grafting a way of accurately keeping track of the ratio of people who met with the kids and people who ended up killing themselves ??? ... or, until Mitsuko, did everyone who had skin taken kill themself ??? ..............


One point I got - once you become part of a group, you no longer exist ... and that is one of the great contradictions ( or is it ? ) .... Is it possible to be connected with yourself as an individual ( like Rolly , the blonde Manson wannabe) and to be connected to everyone else ( like following a trend ) .... or, was Rolly in fact disconnected w/ himself because he was just capitalizing on people's weaknesses ??? .... After all, he began was he considered "the Suicide Club" when in fact, it was anything but : a club that kills others and not themselves cannot be considered a "suicide club" .....

I'll stop here because I'm becoming more confused



...
post #2 of 19
I thought it was a comment on how mindless pop crap has more control over empty teenybopper minds than family, school, authority etc. Among other things.
post #3 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lil'Otik
I thought the movie blew.
With such an eloquent and thought-provoking response, you have revealed your expertise in the art of blowing ... for a sec, I thought I was over at dreadcentral ...
post #4 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lil'Otik
I didn't like the movie, you did. Big deal. You stated your opinion, I stated mine. This movie doesn't deserve a long response about why I thought it blew. I just thought it did. It wasn't entertaining, it was boring and I thought pretty stupid. You obviously feel different towards the flick, great, good for you.

Otik, I posted this topic not to reinforce my feelings for the movie, but to get some discussion going about what it meant ... If you didn't like it, fine, and you need not go further ... I'd like to hear why a person didn't like it just the same ... but that's just me, if you don't want to expand, fine, it's not like anyone is going to push you in front of an oncoming subway or anything ....
post #5 of 19
*Spoilers*

I thought this was the most confusing movie ever made.

What the hell did it all mean?

Where did that website come from? Who was running it?

What did the crazy 'Charlie Manson of the information age' guy have to do with the plot?

Was Dessart knowingly killing people or were they just a tool being used by those creepy little children?

What was with the creepy little children?

Why did they need to remove strips of skin from people?

How did the kids know exactly when to kill themselves? And how was the website able to predict who would die next? It was like removing a strip of their skin suddenly put them under a mind controlling spell.

Another thing I'm wondering about is the people who killed themselves who weren't affected by Dessart, like those school kids who decided to start their own suicide club as a joke but then actually ended up jumping off a roof, was this a statement about the dangers of conforming to other peoples expectations?

I thought it was entertaining as hell, but I would love to figure out what actually happened.
post #6 of 19
All good questions!

Like you, I loved the movie, but really didn't understand very much of it....

The kids on the roof I actually thought were separate from the whole thing. They were like lemmings. Once they were up there they just had to do it...woomph!

The Manson Guy I assumed set up the website that the cop's son found - not the one with the dots, but the one that invited you to enter personal details. The gang then used them to pick up victims. He just wanted notoriety and was nothing to do with the suicides.

Another question - was it going to stop, as the band were doing their last gig?

For a more coherent take on the story, try and read the manga. It takes the first scene of the movie, then goes off at a different direction.

'Can you connect with yourself?'
post #7 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lil'Otik
Oh. Thank you for explaining why you were insulting.
No problem ... if ya ever need more, you know where to come ... Just give a sarcastic one line answer, and I'll be happy to oblige ...
post #8 of 19
Thread Starter 
Werewolf Girl, this is the way I see it ( at least for the moment )



What the hell did it all mean? - From my understanding ( or lack of ), two of the main points are that once you become part of a group, you no longer exist, and, if you keep the connection with yourself, you will no fall prey to mindless fads, temptations and other evils of modern society ... The ability for one generation to relate, care for and connect with another is also prevelant ... When Kuroda first onscreen, one of the other detectives says something to the effect of "You still have blood on you - an implication of guilt ( the blood was apparently from the crime scene ) ...

Where did that website come from? Who was running it? - The BBS that The Bat posted on was Genesis' ( originating from the bowling alley ) ... as soon as she put in her info, they found her ....... The Red/White ( Maru ) dots site was a record of the suicides, and most likely was run by whoever was in charge of taking the skin ... Ruins.com ( the site the detective's kid found ) was probably part of the same group, however, it is this one that has me most confused ... This was probably the site that located and called in all the "victims", although it is never explained exactly ...


What did the crazy 'Charlie Manson of the information age' guy have to do with the plot? - Genesis and his gang were just another example of how anyone can and will attempt to capitalize on fads ... In fact, he was the antithesis of what the kids were trying to do because he in fact was actually killing people, and it is my belief that the children were calling to attention the downfall of society ( part of which was Genesis and his ilk ) ...


Was Dessart knowingly killing people or were they just a tool being used by those creepy little children? - Neither and both ... I think that Dessart ( or, as onscreen during the Puzzle vid, Dessret - which bears a similarity to "Death Threat" ) knew what was going on, however, I don't think that it is their ( or the little kids ) intention to kill anyone ... It was a big rallying cry, and plea to repair a lost connection that many people falied ....

[I]What was with the creepy little children?/I] - They are the newest generation, as yet uneffected by the horror of conformity and adult life .... They feed rabbits and sing sugary songs in the face of a country that has lost their connection with kindness and caring ( we see a number of example of people showing no care - ie the younger detective collasping on the subway stairs, only to be ignored by the throngs of people ... Also, after Kuroda kills himself, a offscreen voice says "What does it all mean ???" , and after a pause, we hear another voice saying ".... Overtime" .....


Why did they need to remove strips of skin from people? - the skin was symbolic of people being linked to one another ... It also served a purpose in that it kept a record of people who were involved with the website, as opposed to everyone else .... Suicide happens everyday, whether those involved are connected to the Dessart/website thing or not ....
post #9 of 19
See, it's all a Biblical allegory. The teenybopper group was Jesus, the teenagers who died for the band were the Apostles, and the police were the Jews. The crazy rock n' roll dude was totally Satan.
post #10 of 19
I say you're all confused because it's terrible narrative had no real coherence to it. First off, it has no idea what it wants to be: Is it a Seven rip-off? Is it a straight horror (thinking mostly of that bit with the three people in the hospital at night)? Is it a darkly comedic satire on teenyboppers conformity? Maybe it's making fun of all of those? The problem is that it doesn't stick with either of these for any reasonable amount of time.

Secondly, the ending is horribly scripted. A bunch of little kids wax faux-philosophical worse than any of the pretentious bits of the Matrix sequels (which I actually enjoyed) about identity that barely has anything to do with group or self-identity. Perhaps that's because the Matrix stuff was taken from already existing philosophy. Then you see the protagonist girl (who is only the protagonist of the last half if I remember correctly) getting a strip of skin taken off. WOO! WHAT A SHOCKING TWIST!

Thridly, I lied: The whole movie is terribly scripted. The dialogue is typical to the point of mediocrity. There's no real theme bringing it all together. Oh look they all commit suicide. To be part of a group? Why is there no questioning of why anyone (in the film and in real life) commits suicide? Apathy, disenfranchisement with urban life, and nihilism maybe? Wait...that's going back into Seven territory, thematically speaking (the last three, not the suicide part).

I think a lot of people confused by this film misinterpret that as being above their head. "Surely," they think, "this film is beyond my reach intellectually." Personally, I've gotten better philosophical advice on life from fortune cookies, so I thought of it as nothing more than a jumbled mass of a film which had no clue about what it is, what it has to say, or what it wants to be.

Who knows, maybe it is "above my head." Maybe I just saw a version with really crappy subtitle translation. My friend rented it from Blockbuster, if that makes any difference.
post #11 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boys #22: elmie
Werewolf Girl, this is the way I see it ( at least for the moment )



What the hell did it all mean? - From my understanding ( or lack of ), two of the main points are that once you become part of a group, you no longer exist, and, if you keep the connection with yourself, you will no fall prey to mindless fads, temptations and other evils of modern society ... The ability for one generation to relate, care for and connect with another is also prevelant ... When Kuroda first onscreen, one of the other detectives says something to the effect of "You still have blood on you - an implication of guilt ( the blood was apparently from the crime scene ) ...

Where did that website come from? Who was running it? - The BBS that The Bat posted on was Genesis' ( originating from the bowling alley ) ... as soon as she put in her info, they found her ....... The Red/White ( Maru ) dots site was a record of the suicides, and most likely was run by whoever was in charge of taking the skin ... Ruins.com ( the site the detective's kid found ) was probably part of the same group, however, it is this one that has me most confused ... This was probably the site that located and called in all the "victims", although it is never explained exactly ...


What did the crazy 'Charlie Manson of the information age' guy have to do with the plot? - Genesis and his gang were just another example of how anyone can and will attempt to capitalize on fads ... In fact, he was the antithesis of what the kids were trying to do because he in fact was actually killing people, and it is my belief that the children were calling to attention the downfall of society ( part of which was Genesis and his ilk ) ...


Was Dessart knowingly killing people or were they just a tool being used by those creepy little children? - Neither and both ... I think that Dessart ( or, as onscreen during the Puzzle vid, Dessret - which bears a similarity to "Death Threat" ) knew what was going on, however, I don't think that it is their ( or the little kids ) intention to kill anyone ... It was a big rallying cry, and plea to repair a lost connection that many people falied ....

[I]What was with the creepy little children?/I] - They are the newest generation, as yet uneffected by the horror of conformity and adult life .... They feed rabbits and sing sugary songs in the face of a country that has lost their connection with kindness and caring ( we see a number of example of people showing no care - ie the younger detective collasping on the subway stairs, only to be ignored by the throngs of people ... Also, after Kuroda kills himself, a offscreen voice says "What does it all mean ???" , and after a pause, we hear another voice saying ".... Overtime" .....


Why did they need to remove strips of skin from people? - the skin was symbolic of people being linked to one another ... It also served a purpose in that it kept a record of people who were involved with the website, as opposed to everyone else .... Suicide happens everyday, whether those involved are connected to the Dessart/website thing or not ....
Those are some pretty good answers. However, I don't buy into the idea that the creepy little children and Dessart/Dessret/Whatever weren't trying to kill anyone. The website with the dots that knew beforehand who was going to kill themselves still goes unexplained, and the pop group was sending subliminal suicide messages to kids through their songs and posters. Also there was nothing about those kids that would suggest they are meant to be a symbol of purity, if they were, how could you explain the 'victim and assailant' line? It looks more to me like they were supernatural demons of some kind, because there is no other way they could have done the things they did. It's really hard to orchestrate perfectly timed mass suicides using only mortal powers.

I think the message of the movie is pretty clear, however nothing else about it is. I have a feeling we could continue this thread for twenty pages and still not come to a conclusion everyone could agree on. It's fun to try though.
post #12 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryoko_the_guerrilla
I say you're all confused because it's terrible narrative had no real coherence to it. First off, it has no idea what it wants to be: Is it a Seven rip-off? Is it a straight horror (thinking mostly of that bit with the three people in the hospital at night)? Is it a darkly comedic satire on teenyboppers conformity? Maybe it's making fun of all of those? The problem is that it doesn't stick with either of these for any reasonable amount of time.

Secondly, the ending is horribly scripted. A bunch of little kids wax faux-philosophical worse than any of the pretentious bits of the Matrix sequels (which I actually enjoyed) about identity that barely has anything to do with group or self-identity. Perhaps that's because the Matrix stuff was taken from already existing philosophy. Then you see the protagonist girl (who is only the protagonist of the last half if I remember correctly) getting a strip of skin taken off. WOO! WHAT A SHOCKING TWIST!

Thridly, I lied: The whole movie is terribly scripted. The dialogue is typical to the point of mediocrity. There's no real theme bringing it all together. Oh look they all commit suicide. To be part of a group? Why is there no questioning of why anyone (in the film and in real life) commits suicide? Apathy, disenfranchisement with urban life, and nihilism maybe? Wait...that's going back into Seven territory, thematically speaking (the last three, not the suicide part).

I think a lot of people confused by this film misinterpret that as being above their head. "Surely," they think, "this film is beyond my reach intellectually." Personally, I've gotten better philosophical advice on life from fortune cookies, so I thought of it as nothing more than a jumbled mass of a film which had no clue about what it is, what it has to say, or what it wants to be.

Who knows, maybe it is "above my head." Maybe I just saw a version with really crappy subtitle translation. My friend rented it from Blockbuster, if that makes any difference.

I can see how the viewer might think SUICIDE CLUB might be haphazardly scripted or incoherent to the point of failure ... I wasn't one, in fact, I loved it ....... I think your critisism of the faux philosiphy could be leveled at most films that tread in that territory, given the fact that filmmakers who attempt something in the way of meaning usually alienate or connect with the viewer ... In other words, with this, it can be hit or miss, depending on the viewer ...

Films such as WILD STRAWBERRIES, SEVENTH SEAL and L'AVENTURA all delve into interpretive meanings, and if scrutinized in the same manner, could be subject to the same critisism ... Is it hokey ??? ... Is it pandering and simplistic ??? ... Is it pretentious ??? - the director runs the risk of failure depending on the viewer .... I would much sooner put a film like SUICIDE CLUB in a category with those films than something like SEVEN which, IMHO, was a decent detective film, but attempted nothing scathing or unique in terms of philosophy or social commentary ...
post #13 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boys #22: elmie
...but attempted nothing scathing or unique in terms of philosophy or social commentary ...

Well, IMHO, Suicide Club isn't scathing nor unique. As I said before, I believe the Matrix did a better job at the commentary on having a sense of identity. In the same manner, so did Blade Runner (and the best BR rip-off Ghost in the Shell). I honestly can't say I found any of the social commentary you say is present. As you said, though, it is all subjective...I'm just arguing that I believe Seven, while neither scathing or unique had a much more coherent attack upon urbanite apathy without trying to verbalize it so much. The only real discussion it presents is when Somerset and Mills are at a bar which is fairly short and rather to the point. Suicide Club's commentary at the end loops around in some poorly concocted Catch-22 in which independence is apparently impossible to achieve.

I've walked out of movie's confused, yet I am easier on the ones I believe were meant to confuse the viewer. I felt Suicide Club was not intentionally confusing at all. It felt it had something to say but just couldn't find the wording to get it out right.
post #14 of 19
Thread Starter 
I think that one of the tragic aspects of the film is the thread of futility that runs throughtout ... For example, Detective Kuroda is of one generation, and while he seems to care for his family, it just isn't enough - they end up killing themselves, and had he been closer to his own son, he would have known that he ( his son ) had the tattoo that was the "sixth link" ... His daughter seemed to make one last plea before she killed herself, a plea that got the response "I'm exhausted" ....

The overall message for me was that the older generations have failed the younger generation to the extent of driving them to meaningless fads and pop idols ... and it is the youngest of that generation that were behind the entire movement .......

For me, a father killing himself because of the realization he not only has failed his family, but an entire generation, is troubling ....
post #15 of 19

I Suppose,

I'm under the impression that this film has many philosophical implications, altogether conveying one essential message. The movie itself is like a jigsaw puzzle to me, but I feel like I'm trying to put it together with half the pieces turned over. There are even more little details you have to find before you can even think about figuring them out! For example, The Bat had cats. Genesis had dogs. The little kids had mice.
Where rabbits fit into this equation...*sigh* And keeping rabbits in a lightless box is pretty cruel, what did that mean?

But everyone gets the two most overstated messages. The first was really well spoken on another website: "I always dug the phrase 'Ignorance Is Suicide' because to me, individuality and self-expression have always been very important. If you pattern yourself after everyone else, who are you? Where's your identity? So in a sense, to ignore your true self and become a follower is its own kind of death. It's killing yourself, it's suicide."

It's all about the music; particularly, the message "SUICIDE" wasn't just on any Desert poster. It was on the "Mail Me" poster. The Internet causes people to communicate indirectly, which is bad when compared to how it keeps you from the people right near you.
The song sung by Genesis wasn't just a random bunch of fluff; it had meaning too. In fact, it summarized everything factual about the film.
I find it amusing that they used a pop star to play him.
The most important song was Dessart's final performance: "Our last message to you is...live as you please!" That song holds both the first, and second message: Communication.

The policemen weren't the protagonists. They were the most disconnected of everyone. "Here comes an ear!"
With people killing themselves all over the place, their overall feeling about it (only after you stepped over "confusion") would be well stated by "That's a damn shame." Only after it affected one of them did they truly start to care. Well--there was an exception. The guy who gagged after they opened the sports bag, who asked the girl to call him, who cried, "It was murder from the start!!"

The two messages collide. It's, "Open yourself up to everyone, and empathize. Connect with them. But don't lose your connection with yourself, either. Don't just become part of popular opinions and traits."

When you think about it that is a somewhat difficult thing to do.

The number one thing that confuses me (anyone have the answer?) is how, even though the girl (i forget all names) said, "I'm me! And I'm connected with myself," they still took her skin. I mean...she came there after figuring out the message and everything, and the little boy didn't entirely seem to care: "But come on over." Wasn't she different?
post #16 of 19
Well, nobody has asked the most important question yet. What the fuck were all those chicks doing there at the end of the movie?
post #17 of 19
In a truly Lynchian way, there simply aren't answers for the most probing questions about this film. It sfails to hold anything together enough to make the kind of sense needed for a deep, over-arching analysis. It's a conversation starter for sure, and thought-provoking and maybe just provocative in general, but it's not something that really makes a terribly deep amount of sense.
post #18 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kay
The number one thing that confuses me (anyone have the answer?) is how, even though the girl (i forget all names) said, "I'm me! And I'm connected with myself," they still took her skin. I mean...she came there after figuring out the message and everything, and the little boy didn't entirely seem to care: "But come on over." Wasn't she different?
With Mitsoku, I think that her skin was taken NOT because she was earmarked as a suicide candidate, but because she was simply there, and had been "interviewed" ...

I might be way off here, but perhaps the roll of skin represented those who had participated, not necessarily those who committed suicide ... After all, there were the suicides that did not produce the sports bag ( the kids off the school roof ), so it is possible that there were those whose skin was taken who did not kill themselves ...

In stating "I'm me, and I'm connected with myself", Mitsoku drew applause from the children ... However, when Kuroda was asked, he said "What ???", and the voice on the phone said, with dismay, "You obviously don't understand" ...

As for the rabbits .... perhaps a symbol of fertility, or abundance with regards to multipling ??? ........ or .... maybe just the fact that they were available on the set of a film that was made for $250,000


excellent overall analysis on your part Kay
post #19 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by otisthecat
Well, nobody has asked the most important question yet. What the fuck were all those chicks doing there at the end of the movie?

The girls in opening sequence came down the stairs laughing and chatting ( with the exception of one, who had a sad look on her face, and even appeared to wipe a tear from here eye on when down on the platform ) ..... Now, the group of girls at the end were basically expressionless, and all of whom received phone calls with either "Mail Me" or "Puzzle" as the ringtone ...

What did the incoming call say ??? ... Since Mitsoku was one of the girls, are we to assume this was a group of "connected" girls ??? ... or, was the phone call made to call off the suicide ??? ... why were they all expressionless at the end, yet not in the begining ??? ... Dramatic effect, or does it mean something ??? .......... I'm not sure ...... Can these same questions be applied to life in general ??? .... What does it all mean ??? ... or, does it mean nothing ???


Whatever the case, "Mail Me" has got to be one of the most infectious songs I've ever had stuck in my head ...
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