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Can conservatives make genuine art?

post #1 of 117
11/24/04 at 1:19pm
Thread Starter 
I got into this discussion with a friend of mine, who basically said that if you limit your topics of exploration as an artist then you cannot truly be an artist. Artists explore not only what they know, but also try to understand things they don't know through their art.

This led me to thinking about, for example, Christian musicians, who refuse to make songs about anything other than their Christian experience, or someone like Toby Keith, with his love-it-or-leave-it mentality. Art is subjective, I realize that, and what's great for one person sucks for another. But there are people we recognize as artists who are left/liberal. More left/liberal than right/conservative is the norm for artists. On the other hand, Sam Raimi is genuinely an artist/director, and from what I've heard he's a born again Christian and contributed money to Bush's campaign.

Discuss?
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post #2 of 117
11/24/04 at 1:25pm
I not sure there's much substance to this theory since it springs forth so many exceptions and contradictions. In SF, Ray Bradbury and Robert A. Heinlein are not far from being the most hardcore of conservatives. I regard both as "artists", the former could even be considered "great".
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post #3 of 117
11/24/04 at 1:38pm
Some of the greatest films from our country came during from conservative directors in the 1930's and 40's.

There is tremendous pressure in the film industry to be liberal. Trust me, get on a crew and try eschewing some moderate or conservative views. Your colleagues will make it their mission to convert you to a liberal. I'm willing to bet there are more conservative artists than we can think of. They just aren't comfortable with owning up to it.

I think the real question is whether Toby Keith or most Musicians of the Christian Music genre are actually artists.
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post #4 of 117
11/24/04 at 1:40pm
Thread Starter 
Well, Toby Keith certainly thinks he is. The guy who drinks his own piss and rolls in his feces on stage does too.
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post #5 of 117
11/24/04 at 1:59pm
There seems to be, as stated previously, a lot of contradictions to this theory. Why pigeonhole and try to maintain that one side or the other has the majority of capital in a certain market? To say conservatives are unable to create art because they don't explore other views/are not "liberal". I doubt you'll see 50 Cent or the next hot "street" hip-hop artist exploring and expounding on how he loves his wife and kids, enjoys his 9-5 job and spends weekends mowing the lawn and shuttling the kids to a soccer game, just like you won't hear any "Christian" artist singing about drinking in the club, hooking up with the ladies, or tossin' out dollahs.

Art and creativity are what they are-- you know it when you see it, and though many prominent artists across all mediums may be "liberal", that's certainly not a qualifier. Creativity and artistic ability exist on both sides of the spectrum.
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post #6 of 117
11/24/04 at 2:01pm
That's a nice theory, voice, but you'd be hard pressed to name truly great and truly conservative (and I don't mean fiscal conservative libertarian types) filmmakers or musicians.
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post #7 of 117
11/24/04 at 2:02pm
Also, I tend to believe that the conservative mindset is anti-creativity. It's not about thinking for yourself.
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post #8 of 117
11/24/04 at 2:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by devincf
That's a nice theory, voice, but you'd be hard pressed to name truly great and truly conservative (and I don't mean fiscal conservative libertarian types) filmmakers or musicians.
Thomas Kinkaide owns your ass!
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post #9 of 117
11/24/04 at 2:08pm
Art is so individualistic and subjective that I don't see how a blanket statement like that could be true.
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post #10 of 117
11/24/04 at 2:09pm
I hear conservatives are lousy in bed too.
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post #11 of 117
11/24/04 at 2:23pm
People from the film world who I would consider Conservative and who were/are also truly great artists....

John Ford
Frank Capra
John Wayne
Jimmy Stewart
Terrence Malick


Those are just five....I wasn't very hard pressed to name, I'm sure if I actually gave it thought....

There are some caveats...What are we defining as being conservative and being liberal? Are we saying Democrats make better artists than Republicans, I certainly hope not that would be a goofy argument. If it is political views we are talking about then I see a hive mindset from both liberal and conservative extremes. Saying that one has more proclivity to individualistic thought than the other is hilarious.
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post #12 of 117
11/24/04 at 2:40pm
Please, John Ford made GRAPES OF WRATH, one of the least conservative movies ever. And I would argue that Capra's films are flat out populist libertarianism - the bad guys are often the corporate rich guys, something conservatives despise about "liberal" films.
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post #13 of 117
11/24/04 at 2:45pm
Are we talking about the Art or the Artists?

Capra's films were also about the idealized concept of Americana. Something I find causes most "liberals" to vomit.

John Ford in his personal life was extremely conservative. Just because their films, characters in their films, plotlines, etc are liberal....


But the point is made, you asked me to name truly great conservative artists and I did....so....why just pick out two
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post #14 of 117
11/24/04 at 2:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingcujoI
Capra's films were also about the idealized concept of Americana. Something I find causes most "liberals" to vomit.
Huh?
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post #15 of 117
11/24/04 at 2:48pm
Awww come on Dev, you really need to give up this line of thinking. I mean we already know that conservatives aren't creative isn't true, as even YT will admit that. I know you might want to say we're bad in everything...but that's FAR from the truth (though I hear from someone we're bad in bed).
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post #16 of 117
11/24/04 at 2:49pm
Well put Maus.
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post #17 of 117
11/24/04 at 2:52pm
And hell forget Steinbeck, if I can enjoy the not so sutble artistry of Takashi Miike than I think that flies in the face of any idea that conservatives can't enjoy anything beyond their ideaology. Because he's just a tad bit beyond my ideaology.
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post #18 of 117
11/24/04 at 2:58pm
Considering the American right wing at the time denounced GRAPES as commie propaganda, and since it came at a time in Ford's life when he was making his "popular front" films with liberal messages, I think painting him as a conservative is wrong. He may have gotten more conservative in later life, but his classics like THE SEARCHERS show anything BUT a conservative mind at work.

The bullshit about libs vomiting over idealized America is stupid. They vomit over the hamhanded sentimentality of Capra's films.

I don't count actors as artists in a creative sense. I don't know enough about Malick's politics to comment. That's why I chose those two people, neither of whom I would say were traditionally conservative.
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post #19 of 117
11/24/04 at 2:59pm
"Hard" Conservatives aren't likely, in my mind, to advertise the fact that they support say the KKK.
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post #20 of 117
11/24/04 at 2:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTDeLude
And hell forget Steinbeck, if I can enjoy the not so sutble artistry of Takashi Miike than I think that flies in the face of any idea that conservatives can't enjoy anything beyond their ideaology. Because he's just a tad bit beyond my ideaology.
Conservatives are full of shit about their values so of course you can enjoy it. Look at Limbaugh and Gingrich and the rest of the moral majority who do drugs, divorce, etc etc etc.

Watching it and making it are very different, though.
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post #21 of 117
11/24/04 at 3:06pm
Mainstream Conservative authors that spring to mind are Chesterton, Kipling and possibly George Bernard Shaw.
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post #22 of 117
11/24/04 at 3:10pm
Devin, it always amazes me how much you toss aside your obvious intelligence and eloquence for your utter hate of things and people that dare not to agree with you.

Think for just a second about what you are saying...that political affiliation/leaning determines the quality of the artistic work. (Also it seems that you believe the Art is always a mirror of the artist in a political sense, but that is an argument for another time)

It is basically a ridiculous generalization, much akin to saying that one race is better at/more suited for BLANK than another race.
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post #23 of 117
11/24/04 at 3:10pm
I think the term "conservative" is a little too all-inclusive to make such blanket statements. If we restrict this question to American religious right conservatives in the latter half of the 20th Century/early part of the 21st, though? I think there's some relevance there. Is there any good "conservative" art from the last 50 years? Maybe a little, but certainly not much.

Also, before we get carried away, let's separate "religious" or "Christian" from "conservative." You can certainly be religious and create religious works of art without being conservative. There's a big difference between Left Behind and O'Connor's Wise Blood. Religion in art is absolutely no proof of conservativism (especially of the modern 'neocon' sort).

In fact, I'd argue the greatest religious art often offers a liberal or controversial take on it. I can't think of a more well-known piece of English religious literature than Paradise Lost, and I'm not so sure the religious right of today would warm up to Milton's portrayal of Lucifer if it were first published tomorrow.
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post #24 of 117
11/24/04 at 3:14pm
Because you're a pedo?
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post #25 of 117
11/24/04 at 3:15pm
John Wayne an artist?
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post #26 of 117
11/24/04 at 3:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by devincf
I don't know enough about Malick's politics to comment.
Can't say I do either, but if the Thin Red Line was made by a conservative, it was certainly not by a conservative in the sense that the Bush administration is conservative.

Either that or Malick is an idiot savant with a profound gift in visuals who had no idea what message he was sending out. Doubtful.
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post #27 of 117
11/24/04 at 3:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveB
I think the term "conservative" is a little too all-inclusive to make such blanket statements. If we restrict this question to American religious right conservatives in the latter half of the 20th Century/early part of the 21st, though? I think there's some relevance there. Is there any good "conservative" art from the last 50 years? Maybe a little, but certainly not much.
It's only relevant if the number of non-religious conservatives working in Hollywood during this period is roughly the same.

Does anyone have any statistics on the number of religious conservatives and "others" that have worked in the movie business at high levels during the last 50 years?

And why exclude non-Americans?
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post #28 of 117
11/24/04 at 3:17pm
Never mind...
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post #29 of 117
11/24/04 at 3:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by devincf
Conservatives are full of shit about their values so of course you can enjoy it. Look at Limbaugh and Gingrich and the rest of the moral majority who do drugs, divorce, etc etc etc.

Watching it and making it are very different, though.

*shrugs*

If that makes you feel better at night, go ahead and believe that. Truthfully, when considering the films I wanted to make when I was exploring whether I want to indeed make films I certainly wasn't afriad to touch strong and mature subject matter. I mean, it's apart of the world we live in. Now my creatively with these ideas could easily be questioned (especially considering I never made anything) but I'd have no problem approaching things that make people squeamish.

Espcially since my existence makes people squeamish.
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post #30 of 117
11/24/04 at 3:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveB
Can't say I do either, but if the Thin Red Line was made by a conservative, it was certainly not by a conservative in the sense that the Bush administration is conservative.

Either that or Malick is an idiot savant with a profound gift in visuals who had no idea what message he was sending out. Doubtful.

That's the thing - people are throwing around conservative like the current political meaning of that word has any validity for times past, etc. If we're talking tax-cutting, pre-emptive striking, no homos marrying modern conservatives, then they definitely cannot make good art.
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post #31 of 117
11/24/04 at 3:22pm
And I'm curious, did anyone find The Passion of the Christ artistic in any way?
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post #32 of 117
11/24/04 at 3:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maus
Because you've forgotten how to draw, dude.

Art is the natural habitat of the child. Pablo Picasso once said that it took him a lifetime to learn how to paint like children paint. Adults have to be taught how to draw because they've forgotten, not because they never knew.

You need a good hour or two with construction paper and safety scissors. I swear it would make you a happier guy.
You have no idea what you're talking about. You're growing ever more annoying.
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post #33 of 117
11/24/04 at 3:24pm
I can tell you for fact that Malick is extremely conservative. His art might not show it, but he himself is very conservative.

Being that interpretations of Art (film, painting, whatever medium you will) are often held either by the viewer, or a collective audience, it is extremely difficult to consistently place a clear cut political meaning to films. Manchurian Candidate for instance has changed in it's meaning as times have shifted from the Cold war. I also think we need to draw deliniations between artists, and the art they create.


And yes Boomstick I do consider John Wayne an artist. He was an actor of some talent (highly underrated). I consider actors artists.
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post #34 of 117
11/24/04 at 3:27pm
This discussion appears to have transformed itself into: can filmmakers we don't like make movies we do?
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post #35 of 117
11/24/04 at 3:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingcujoI
I can tell you for fact that Malick is extremely conservative. His art might not show it, but he himself is very conservative.

Oh well, if you say so, with no proof.
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post #36 of 117
11/24/04 at 3:32pm
Maus, you're amazing. You start the personal attacks and then when they continue you get all wounded. And then you put on the false Christianity. Again, I must ask - does everyone in your real life find you as insufferable as everyone on this board does?
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post #37 of 117
11/24/04 at 3:32pm
More of a personal experience. I don't think it would be professionally prudent to say more than I have. Probably should not have mentioned it in the first place.
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post #38 of 117
11/24/04 at 3:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by devincf
That's a nice theory, voice, but you'd be hard pressed to name truly great and truly conservative (and I don't mean fiscal conservative libertarian types) filmmakers or musicians.
I know many don't believe it, but "liberal/progressive" does not have a stranglehold on free thought and expression. The sheep mentality can easilty be applied to any group who tends to think the same, and really, I see that in both camps. I'm even willing to concede that most great artists are liberal, but who cares?

My argument is that a blanket statement mostly never holds true and there are great artists out there who are creative and conservative. How can you crap on people's creativity just because they don't prescribe to the same mindset as you? Why does this creative territory have to be staked out and claimed?
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post #39 of 117
11/24/04 at 3:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by voiceoreason
I know many don't believe it, but "liberal/progressive" does not have a stranglehold on free thought and expression. The sheep mentality can easilty be applied to any group who tends to think the same, and really, I see that in both camps. I'm even willing to concede that most great artists are liberal, but who cares?

My argument is that a blanket statement mostly never holds true and there are great artists out there who are creative and conservative. How can you crap on people's creativity just because they don't prescribe to the same mindset as you? Why does this creative territory have to be staked out and claimed?

It doesn't, but since no one is able to point to the vibrant conservative arm of the arts, it tends to appear that this is not an area in which conservatives excel.

But beyond that, while all political persuasions have sheep, the conservative ethos is one predicated on unblinking loyalty - the "you're with us or you're against us" and "don't question your president" crowds are NOT the liberal folks.
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post #40 of 117
11/24/04 at 3:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by devincf
Oh well, if you say so, with no proof.
And, as said, what kind of conservative is a pretty big deal, as is the context. Remember that artists are like anyone - a single opinion at one time is not indicative of a lifelong standing - Neil Young, after all, once supported Ronald Reagan. Many Libertarians consider themselves "conservative," and they're not entirely wrong.

But it's a conservative position that I don't think has much bearing on the ability to push boundaries in art. Libertarianism is a conservative viewpoint that does not seek to impose its morality on others. This is a huge distinction. Considering Malick's past work and that he was planning a movie on Che Guevera, I'm guessing he's not your run-of-the-mill American conservative, at least at the time he made that film (or Days of Heaven, for that matter).

And why are we narrowing this down to American artists? Here's one reason why:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/content/login.aspx?ci=14107

Our social conservatives are crazier than yours.
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post #41 of 117
11/24/04 at 3:46pm
Nice little tidbit on Darwinism there. I'm a pretty accepting guy (or pretend to be) but Bibilical literalists scare the Robert Shaw out of me.
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post #42 of 117
11/24/04 at 3:46pm
Racist, sexist, gay-hating bible bashers (who could be categorised as criminals) aren't likely to make it big in "art" these days?

Well, blow me down with a feather! <grin>
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post #43 of 117
11/24/04 at 3:52pm
Art doesn't really fit into the world of Conservatism. Who wants to watch a film where the heroes are the CEOs who rake in the money while firing American workers so they can pay a Filipino lad one dollar a day to do the same work? Who wants a painting that glorifies Bull Conner hosing protesting blacks?

And Maus, thanks for giving us another example of why you're the biggest fraud on these boards.
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post #44 of 117
11/24/04 at 4:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AgentOrange
Racist, sexist, gay-hating bible bashers (who could be categorised as criminals) aren't likely to make it big in "art" these days?

Well, blow me down with a feather! <grin>
I don't think it has anything to do with being racist, sexist, or gay hating. There have been plenty of great artists in the past with sexist, racist, and anti-semitic views. What characterizes modern conservatism more than those things is a lack of openmindedness on all fronts - too much respect for authority, wealth, and tradition. This is what makes for poor art, not the other stuff, as repulsive as it may be.
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post #45 of 117
11/24/04 at 4:10pm
Does the lack of success for Communists, who believe in overwhelming state control and loss of all individual liberty, in today's American "art" mean that there are no left-wing artists?
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post #46 of 117
11/24/04 at 4:11pm
Thread Starter 
Lovecraft was a spectacular racist, but I still think he's one of the best horror short story writers to have ever lived. He's about the only racist I can think of right now, though.
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post #47 of 117
11/24/04 at 4:13pm
Thread Starter 
You're confusing communist with left-wing, as most conservatives are prone to do. That's okay, though. As long as one of us lefties is here to point out WE'RE NOT COMMUNISTS, YOU JERK, it'll be fine.
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post #48 of 117
11/24/04 at 4:13pm
anyone can be an artist. a child drawing a stick figure is making art. I think the real question is, can someone of a conservative mindset be a great artist? a transcendent artist. I think most great leaps are made with a more open mind, and while that doesn't eliminate conservatives completely, a liberal mindset tends to favor experimental approaches. but this isn't an all or nothing thing, of course, it's just about tendencies and interests.

besides, everyone knows the true common denominator amongst great artists is heavy drug use.
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post #49 of 117
11/24/04 at 4:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by devincf
It doesn't, but since no one is able to point to the vibrant conservative arm of the arts, it tends to appear that this is not an area in which conservatives excel.

But beyond that, while all political persuasions have sheep, the conservative ethos is one predicated on unblinking loyalty - the "you're with us or you're against us" and "don't question your president" crowds are NOT the liberal folks.
Honestly, I'm unable to point to the vibrant conservative arm simpy because I don't track it. I don't care. Again, I'll buy the argument that more artists are "liberal" but the blanket statement of conservatives unable to excel therein just isn't true.

As per our friends the sheep, I found those "buzz phrases" true in the liberal folks as well. I see your point, but even in the "liberal" view, if you're not in their mindset/worldview, "you're against them" or "an idiot". And, had the election outcome been different, I have no doubt many would not be questioning "their president." I think that ideal is from the extreme arm of conservatism (and both sides, to be honest), which doesn't account for the majority of anyone. I'm in a hugely conservative state, and I don't know anyone who hasn't questioned this president. But that's another topic.
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post #50 of 117
11/24/04 at 4:17pm
How about Bono from U2 and Mel Gibson. Both are very religous which tend for conservative thought. Bono isn't the stereotypical conservative but I think he falls under the umbrella. Gibson certainly would. While I thought POTC wasn't that good I admire the effort and thought it was a beautiful film to look at.

It's bit narrow minded to think that just because someone believes something you don't that they cannot make art. I find it hard to believe that all Hollywood movies were made by liberals. That all paintings, sculptures, or poetry were made by "liberals".

And if you think being a conservative is just a homophobic, bible thumper or rascist you are just wrong. That be like saying all liberals are baby killing drug addicts who want to just take from the rich and give to the lazy poor.
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