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We support the troops?

post #1 of 25
Thread Starter 
I'm continually stunned that the treatment of American soldiers - not by the enemy, not by protestors, but rather their own backers and superiors - continues to be such a minor issue, and that no matter how bad it gets, military support for this administration and the way this war is waged is unshakable.

Exhibit #4,508 (from the Los Angeles Times):

Quote:
Guardsmen Say They're Facing Iraq Ill-Trained

By Scott Gold Times Staff Writer

DOÑA ANA RANGE, N.M. — Members of a California Army National Guard battalion preparing for deployment to Iraq (news - web sites) said this week that they were under strict lockdown and being treated like prisoners rather than soldiers by Army commanders at the remote desert camp where they are training.

More troubling, a number of the soldiers said, is that the training they have received is so poor and equipment shortages so prevalent that they fear their casualty rate will be needlessly high when they arrive in Iraq early next year. "We are going to pay for this in blood," one soldier said.

They said they believed their treatment and training reflected an institutional bias against National Guard troops by commanders in the active-duty Army, an allegation that Army commanders denied.

The 680 soldiers of the 1st Battalion of the 184th Infantry Regiment were activated in August and are preparing for deployment at Doña Ana, a former World War II prisoner-of-war camp 20 miles west of its large parent base, Ft. Bliss, Texas.

Members of the battalion, headquartered in Modesto, said in two dozen interviews that they were allowed no visitors or travel passes, had scant contact with their families and that morale was terrible.

"I feel like an inmate with a weapon," said Cpl. Jajuane Smith, 31, a six-year Guard veteran from Fresno who works for an armored transport company when not on active duty.

Several soldiers have fled Doña Ana by vaulting over rolls of barbed wire that surround the small camp, the soldiers interviewed said. Others, they said, are contemplating going AWOL, at least temporarily, to reunite with their families for Thanksgiving.

Army commanders said the concerns were an inevitable result of the decision to shore up the strained military by turning "citizen soldiers" into fully integrated, front-line combat troops. About 40% of the troops in Iraq are either reservists or National Guard troops.

Lt. Col. Michael Hubbard of Ft. Bliss said the military must confine the soldiers largely to Doña Ana to ensure that their training is complete before they are sent to Iraq.

"A lot of these individuals are used to doing this two days a month and then going home," Hubbard said. "Now the job is 24/7. And they experience culture shock."

But many of the soldiers interviewed said the problems they cited went much deeper than culture shock.

And military analysts agree that tensions between active-duty Army soldiers and National Guard troops have been exacerbated as the war in Iraq has required dangerous and long-term deployments of both.

The concerns of the Guard troops at Doña Ana represent the latest in a series of incidents involving allegations that a two-tier system has shortchanged reservist and National Guard units compared with their active-duty counterparts.

In September, a National Guard battalion undergoing accelerated training at Ft. Dix, N.J., was confined to barracks for two weeks after 13 soldiers reportedly went AWOL to see family before shipping out for Iraq.

Last month, an Army National Guard platoon at Camp Shelby, Miss., refused its orders after voicing concerns about training conditions and poor leadership.

In the most highly publicized incident, in October, more than two dozen Army reservists in Iraq refused to drive a fuel convoy to a town north of Baghdad after arguing that the trucks they had been given were not armored for combat duty.

At Doña Ana, soldiers have questioned their commanders about conditions at the camp, occasionally breaking the protocol of formation drills to do so. They said they had been told repeatedly that they could not be trusted because they were not active-duty soldiers — though many of them are former active-duty soldiers.

"I'm a cop. I've got a career, a house, a family, a college degree," said one sergeant, who lives in Southern California and spoke, like most of the soldiers, on condition of anonymity.

"I came back to the National Guard specifically to go to Baghdad, because I believed in it, believed in the mission. But I have regretted every day of it. This is demoralizing, demeaning, degrading. And we're supposed to be ambassadors to another country? We're supposed to go to war like this?"

Pentagon (news - web sites) and Army commanders rejected the allegation that National Guard or reserve troops were prepared for war differently than their active-duty counterparts.

"There is no difference," said Lt. Col. Chris Rodney, an Army spokesman in Washington. "We are, more than ever, one Army. Some have to come from a little farther back — they have a little less training. But the goal is to get everybody the same."

The Guard troops at Doña Ana were scheduled to train for six months before beginning a yearlong deployment. They recently learned, however, that the Army planned to send them overseas a month early — in January, most likely — as it speeds up troop movement to compensate for a shortage of full-time, active-duty troops.

Hubbard, the officer at Ft. Bliss, also said conditions at Doña Ana were designed to mirror the harsh and often thankless assignments the soldiers would take on in Iraq. That was an initiative launched by Brig. Gen. Joseph Chavez, commander of the 29th Separate Infantry Brigade, which includes the 184th Regiment.

The program has resulted in everything from an alcohol ban to armed guards at the entrance to Doña Ana, Hubbard said.

"We are preparing you and training you for what you're going to encounter over there," Hubbard said. "And they just have to get used to it."

Military analysts, however, questioned whether the soldiers' concerns could be attributed entirely to the military's attempt to mirror conditions in Iraq. For example, the soldiers say that an ammunition shortage has meant that they have often conducted operations firing blanks.

"The Bush administration had over a year of planning before going to war in Iraq," said Jonathan Turley, a George Washington University law professor who has acted as a defense lawyer in military courts. "An ammunition shortage is not an exercise in tough love."

Turley said that in every military since Alexander the Great's, there have been "gripes from grunts" but that "the complaints raised by these National Guardsmen raise some significant and troubling concerns."

The Guard troops in New Mexico said they wanted more sophisticated training and better equipment. They said they had been told, for example, that the vehicles they would drive in Iraq would not be armored, a common complaint among their counterparts already serving overseas.

They also said the bulk of their training had been basic, such as first aid and rifle work, and not "theater-specific" to Iraq. They are supposed to be able to use night-vision goggles, for instance, because many patrols in Iraq take place in darkness. But one group of 200 soldiers trained for just an hour with 30 pairs of goggles, which they had to pass around quickly, soldiers said.

The soldiers said they had received little or no training for operations that they expected to undertake in Iraq, from convoy protection to guarding against insurgents' roadside bombs. One said he has put together a diary of what he called "wasted days" of training. It lists 95 days, he said, during which the soldiers learned nothing that would prepare them for Iraq.

Hubbard had said he would make two field commanders available on Tuesday to answer specific questions from the Los Angeles Times about the training, but that did not happen.

The fact that the National Guardsmen have undergone largely basic training suggests that Army commanders do not trust their skills as soldiers, said David Segal, director of the Center for Research on Military Organization at the University of Maryland. That tension underscores a divide that has long existed between "citizen soldiers" and their active-duty counterparts, he said.

"These soldiers should be getting theater-specific training," Segal said. "This should not be an area where they are getting on-the-job training. The military is just making a bad situation worse."

The soldiers at Doña Ana emphasized their support for the war in Iraq. "In fact, a lot of us would rather go now rather than stay here," said one, a specialist and six-year National Guard veteran who works as a security guard in his civilian life in Southern California.

The soldiers also said they were risking courts-martial or other punishment by speaking publicly about their situation. But Staff Sgt. Lorenzo Dominguez, 45, one of the soldiers who allowed his identity to be revealed, said he feared that if nothing changed, men in his platoon would be killed in Iraq.

Dominguez is a father of two — including a 13-month-old son named Reagan, after the former president — and an employee of a mortgage bank in Alta Loma, Calif. A senior squad leader of his platoon, Dominguez said he had been in the National Guard for 20 years.

"Some of us are going to die there, and some of us are going to die unnecessarily because of the lack of training," he said. "So I don't care. Let them court-martial me. I want the American public to know what is going on. My men are guilty of one thing: volunteering to serve their country. And we are at the end of our rope."
post #2 of 25
If this rather depressing story highlights anything, it is the astronomical cost of war (even for the United States), the penny-pinching that results from it, and the effects of such on the poor souls who must ultimately carry the can (or not, depending on the budget).
post #3 of 25
Thread Starter 
Well, that's just it. The cost of WAR for the United States isn't that great at all, due to us being able to defeat the military of pretty much any rogue nation in short order. However, the cost of NATION-BUILDING is ridiculously high and because the doofuses in our current administration forgot that, our soldiers are paying the price. But I'm pretty sure Iraq will serve as a reminder for the next 20 years or so to keep America from doing something this bad again.
post #4 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Micah Robinson
But I'm pretty sure Iraq will serve as a reminder for the next 20 years or so to keep America from doing something this bad again.
Only time will tell, but god... I hope this is to be true.
post #5 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Micah Robinson
Well, that's just it. The cost of WAR for the United States isn't that great at all, due to us being able to defeat the military of pretty much any rogue nation in short order.
I agree that the cost of War itself is relatively small, but the spin-off costs are very high. War not only justifies existing defense expenditure (which in the US's case is high as things stand) but considerably more besides. If missile X proves to be faulty inside the theatre of operations then the temptation is to conduct expensive research into what went wrong and then authorise a replacement at even more cost.

Some time ago I did some cursory research into the cost of War. I don’t have my sources to hand, but if memory serves the outlay for post-war military expenditure comes in at 1000% higher than the deed itself.
post #6 of 25
If missile X proves to be faulty inside the theatre of operations then the temptation is to conduct expensive research into what went wrong and then authorise a replacement at even more cost.

AgentOrange to the rescue with a great point.
Cost effectiveness is a very important point in the role of
battlefield hardware. One of the biggest mistakes the military
is making is decommissioning (or proposing to decommission)
many very effective battlefield units, like the A-10 Warthog
and the Ah-64 Apache chopper, both VERY effective tank killers.

These are perhaps the 2 most cost effective machines the
military owns. They have easily killed more than their R&D
and development costs in terms of tanks and vehicles.
Just because it's old, it's not obsolete. I digress to the fact
that several nations still use the F-4 Phantom and use them
very effectively at that. Not bad for a 40-some year old fighter
plane.

Final thoughts with regard to R&D costs and more effective weapons:
if it still works, keep it, and if it ain't broken, DON'T FIX IT.
post #7 of 25
That’s a good point MM04, and I will add that it’s completely illogical to decommission effective and reliable pieces of equipment and replace them with more expensive alternatives when no one else in the world seems all that bothered about large scale weapons research and proliferation.

Offhand I can think of only 5 nations that have the capability to conduct serious weapons research:

China.
Britain.
France.
Germany.
Japan.

Of the above, China doesn’t seem interested in building up its army, Britain, France and Germany are slashing defence budgets and Japan hasn’t bothered with guns and bombs since WWII. Russia doesn’t get a mention because it can’t afford to keep the army it’s got in serviceable condition.

Last week I read an interesting article in the Guardian which said that the US is already looking at a multi-billion-dollar replacement for the insanely expensive F-22 fighter, which only went into early stage deployment last month. Currently, and for the foreseeable future, the only fighter capable of outperforming the F-15 (which is being decommissioned for the F-22) is the Eurofighter. And initial orders for the Eurofighter are being cut to the bone in Germany, France, Italy and the UK. Now, one could argue that the US made a commitment to the F-22 in the late eighties and therefore couldn’t afford to back out. But given the shrinking defence budgets across the world, it seems nonsensical to start work on a replacement for the F-22, which won’t be fully deployed until sometime in the next decade.
post #8 of 25
I actually have a good point for once, I actually DO!

**begins sobbing as he holds his CHUD trophy high in the air as he falters for the words to his acceptance speech**

Thanks AO, much appreciated.

Seriously though, cost effectiveness is a serious issue that ultimately weighs out in how
many kills versus the price of R&D and Development. Say for instance-if the Apache chopper
has a projected 20 to 1 kill ratio, meaning you have to kill 20 tanks in battle to pay for the
Apache. If you wind up killing 40 with one AH-64, you've wound up paying for 2 Apaches.
No way I'd ditch the AH-64 anyway, it's support role on the battlefield has shown it's
stripes more that once, and even though it's not meant for close support or up close and
personal strikes like the Ah-1 Cobra, killing tanks from far away has a very effective method
of clearing the channels to make way for the cavalry. The Apache is a tank hunter plain and simple.
post #9 of 25
Good points about the Eurofighter. What the world's developers are going for now is a form of combat given the acromyn "BVR" or Beyond Visual Range. The Eurofighter is supposed to excel at this newly
developed form of aerial combat. Some very promising concepts there, as an enemy fighter will be unable to see the missile until it's right on top of them due to the deployment of said weapon beyond the range of the aircraft's onboard radar.


I have also heard tell of some sort of dual functioning air\ground radar that allows for simultaneous lock-on of air and ground targets, and the ability to fire ground AND air missiles at the same time with a computer doing the firing and having the smarts to separate from air and ground so that individual fire will no longer be restricted to choosing "between air or ground targets." Both could now be simulatneously engaged and fired upon due to the advanced filtering techniques of the radar and the slaving of the weapon seeker heads to the computer targeting system. Now THAT'S awesome.
post #10 of 25
You know it's funny how much we-spend Re-Building Irag compared to Afghanistan...I understand one has sprawling city's and the other doesnt but all things being =

I find it funny how were spendnig billions on the country that sits on the second largest oil reserve know to man. Yet Afghanistan and there people get shit and pakistan is going to pull it's troops from the border and we still have Osama laughing at us 2days before election day. Maybe it's just my skewed view.
post #11 of 25
Don't fret - the opium trade's gonna take care of all that.
post #12 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlondieJoeManco
Don't fret - the opium trade's gonna take care of all that.
Yeah, and we'll know the money will go to good use-already there's talks about 500 new 7-11's and another 200 Mobi Tiger Marts coming to Afghanistan in the next 5 years...and the Taliban promised to lay off of the U.S. and her allies if we give them the formula for the "Freedom Slurpie."
post #13 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metal Marine 04
I actually have a good point for once, I actually DO!

**begins sobbing as he holds his CHUD trophy high in the air as he falters for the words to his acceptance speech**
Take it easy MM. You wouldn't want us to have to call out the crash team on award night.

<g>
post #14 of 25
Yeah I hear they charge double on Award Night
post #15 of 25
Speaking of the shabby treatment our troops get, I was watching CSPAN the other day and it was revealed in a senate hearing that a veteran whose entire family income is greater than $20,000 per year is not elligible for any benefits, assistance, etc. That is the biggest "fuck you" that I've yet heard our government (who support the troops, remember?) give to the men and women who have put their lives on the line for this country. Sick.
post #16 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by theAardvark
Speaking of the shabby treatment our troops get, I was watching CSPAN the other day and it was revealed in a senate hearing that a veteran whose entire family income is greater than $20,000 per year is not elligible for any benefits, assistance, etc. That is the biggest "fuck you" that I've yet heard our government (who support the troops, remember?) give to the men and women who have put their lives on the line for this country. Sick.
Y'know, I don't think it's sick at all. People who do 20 years on active duty retire (in their 40s) with half pay + full medical and dental. Those who go to 30 years get 75% pay + benefits. People who do 2 years get the GI Bill + VA benefits such as the VA loan, but that's about it. These things are made very clear to people before they get out; there are no surprises here. If you don't go to 20, you don't reap the big rewards. It's as simple as that.
post #17 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankCobretti
Y'know, I don't think it's sick at all. People who do 20 years on active duty retire (in their 40s) with half pay + full medical and dental. Those who go to 30 years get 75% pay + benefits. People who do 2 years get the GI Bill + VA benefits such as the VA loan, but that's about it. These things are made very clear to people before they get out; there are no surprises here. If you don't go to 20, you don't reap the big rewards. It's as simple as that.
So then, hypothetically, someone who served just 3 years, got both of his legs blown off in Iraq, whose wife maybe makes $21,000 a year deserves dick? Someone in the Reserves who has been called to active duty and had his tour extended, whose family has had to sell their house because they can't afford the mortgage without his regular job deserves what they get because they should have gone career instead? What I'm saying is not that before joining the military one should understand beforehand how they will be screwed when they get out, but that the legislators who make the laws should not be screwing the people who put their lives on the line and then say "oh, but we suport our troops".
post #18 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by theAardvark
So then, hypothetically, someone who served just 3 years, got both of his legs blown off in Iraq, whose wife maybe makes $21,000 a year deserves dick? Someone in the Reserves who has been called to active duty and had his tour extended, whose family has had to sell their house because they can't afford the mortgage without his regular job deserves what they get because they should have gone career instead? What I'm saying is not that before joining the military one should understand beforehand how they will be screwed when they get out, but that the legislators who make the laws should not be screwing the people who put their lives on the line and then say "oh, but we suport our troops".
Someone who gets his legs blown off after three years of service is eligible for full disability, the benefits package, the whole bit. That person is not financially screwed.

Someone who joins the reserves does so with the knowledge that he can get called up at any time, and for as long as the gov't wants to keep him. He also knows that the government will not make up the difference between his military salary and his civilian income. If he chooses to arrange his finances in such a way that that would be devastating, it's his own fault.

None of these things should come as a surprise. If they do, it's because the individuals involved didn't do their homework.

These people are not getting screwed. The rules are there; they've been there all along. If individuals choose not to learn them, they are responsible for the consequences.

Your pal the reservist,
FC
post #19 of 25
Well FC, I have been corrected and accept it....I still think that some of the rules need to be changed though. I think that if more civilians understood the consequences of some of these rules they would be, at least, disturbed. It's fine that you are not, I'm not trying to change your mind, and you have already demonstrated a supperior command of the details. But, I think the treatment that most vets recieve is shabby at best (even if they understood what they were getting into - most I've talked to didn't) and I am digusted by the endless political rhetoric about how the politicians "support" and "honor" our troops while continuing, year after year, to slash funding for veteran benefits and VA hospitals. I work at the American Cancer Society and talk, every day, to vets of various wars or service lengths or varying degrees of disability, who are at the end of their rope trying to get treatment or assistance from the VA. If our troops were truly a priority for the government, the rules/benefits structure would reflect that.

and now I've thrown in my 2 cents!
post #20 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by theAardvark
If our troops were truly a priority for the government, the rules/benefits structure would reflect that.

Fair enough. Go well.
post #21 of 25
Does the U.S. still need a sizeable number of "tank killers"? I assume that they fuction in more than just that role, but what precisely is that role on the battlefield.
post #22 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by theAardvark
I still think that some of the rules need to be changed though. I think that if more civilians understood the consequences of some of these rules they would be, at least, disturbed.
Odd. Why would your first reaction be to "change the rules"?

My first reaction would be to make sure you, as an individual, understood them.

Seems petty, but it's a huge difference.
post #23 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by joker592
Does the U.S. still need a sizeable number of "tank killers"? I assume that they fuction in more than just that role, but what precisely is that role on the battlefield.
"Tank Killers" can be used for many things other than killing tanks.

Convoys
radio / radar sites
command bunkers
mobile launchers
anti-aircraft neutralization
bridges / railway destruction
fire suppression
base / convoy protection


is just a short list of what these birds are capable of. However, down and dirty, killing tanks will always be number one with a bullet. (pardon the pun)
post #24 of 25
You got THAT right, Dale.

Tank killers make mincemeat out of softer targets let alone hard ones.

My cousin was in Gulf War part One back in 1991 and he was part of
a salvage crew that went out and got damaged and broken down vehicles for repair,
and he brought back a whole bunch of photos of what the enemy tanks looked like
after a few rounds of 30mm from an A-10 Warthog. He also said that since the A-10's
(the older ones) have no night vision, the pilots "trick" the aircraft into having it by
affixing a Maverick missile underneath and slaving it to the radar so the pilots can
actually look through it and into the night, or so he says. Pretty cool.

Air superiority is nt only power over enemy air units, but domination of the ground as
well, and when you have a few Apaches to your left, a few AH-1 Cobras in front, and a
Warthog above you, that's as safe as it gets. Let the military decommission all it wants
in a quest for a better weapon\vehicle\aircraft, because sometimes, the older stuff works
just fine. And as I said before, if it ain't broken, don't go a tryin' ta fix it.
post #25 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale 'Grifter' Wicker
Odd. Why would your first reaction be to "change the rules"?

My first reaction would be to make sure you, as an individual, understood them.

Seems petty, but it's a huge difference.
I think you are missing my point...it''s all well and good and prudent to understnd the rules of the game, but if the rules (veteran program funding, in my case) are stacked against you, then wouldn't it be equally prudent to try to make the rules more fair? After all, the name of this post is "We support the troops?", not "the troops shouldv'e known better"
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